Cable trays in condominium?

[OneMoreFarang]

I like to use cable trays under the ceiling in my new condominium to make cabling and cable maintenance easy.

It seems most of the time this is only used in industry and maybe offices.

What do you think about this?

 

Here is some more information:

I am renovating my condominium from scratch. All the old wiring is already removed.

I plan to install lots of LED lights, sensors, home automation, etc.

Most of this I will do myself with HomeAssistant, NSPanels, etc.

Some will be installed right away but likely I will add things later on.

 

A long time ago when I was young I worked a couple of months for an electrical installation company. I helped them with electrical installations in houses and industry.

I think the way things are done in industry (including offices) if a lot better to work on and maintain than the typical house wiring.

This is why I want to use cable trays instead of the usual pipes along the ceiling.

I plan to use cable trays separated for high voltage (220V) and low voltage (24V for LEDs, LAN, PoE (48V), etc.)

 

I plan to install the cable trays between the concrete ceiling and ceiling tiles. That will make it very easy to access it.

This is an example of such cable tray. The picture does not show ceiling panels (like I plan to use).

 

I plan to use maybe something like this, not sure yet:

https://th.rs-online.com/web/p/cable-trays/7707058

 

For the record: A qualified Thai electrical engineer will make sure that all is according to the regulations.

 

[lopburi3]

Rat feeding trays if hidden from view.  Rats do love hot wires.

[Crossy]

5 minutes ago, lopburi3 said:

Rat feeding trays if hidden from view.  Rats do love hot wires.

 

Yeah, I wanted to use trunking on the more populated routes, sparks insisted on conduit as the rats couldn't get down it.

 

We have a rat problem on both Pink and Yellow Lines (all in tray or underfloor ducting), we also have a problem with birds nesting behind the conductor rails, snakes then eat the eggs. Wondering if we could re-direct the snakes to eat the rats.

 

[Excel]

Just now, Crossy said:

 

Yeah, I wanted to use trunking on the more populated routes, sparks insisted on conduit as the rats couldn't get down it.

 

We have a rat problem on both Pink and Yellow Lines (all in tray or underfloor ducting), we also have a problem with birds nesting behind the conductor rails, snakes then eat the eggs. Wondering if we could re-direct the snakes to eat the eggs.

 

As I am sure you are well aware London Underground has always had ongoing major problems with their main track feeders. To see with your own eyes the damage they can cause is quite amassing.  Rats will gnaw anything whether in a tray or not. I agree that running cables in small conduits may prevent access for rats but it does not prevent the conduit from being chewed which happens also as I found out a long time ago in a house in Bangkok. There is no answer to stopping rats chewing anything , only deterrents.

[Crossy]

2 minutes ago, Excel said:

There is no answer to stopping rats chewing anything , only deterrents.

 

Yeah, our contractor used some of the "natural" deterrent, seems the rats like it!

 

We have a cat (sorry we are owned by a cat), who does a sterling job of ridding the garden of rats ably assisted by our resident Sunbeam snake.

 

Not seen any rodent damage actually inside the house although the Golden Tree Snakes (probably too small to take on a grown rat) do sometimes occupy the spare bedooms much to the annoyance of the maid who is terrified of them.

[Excel]

Just now, Crossy said:

 

Yeah, our contractor used some of the "natural" deterrent, seems the rats like it!

 

We have a cat (sorry we are owned by a cat), who does a sterling job of ridding the garden of rats ably assisted by our resident Sunbeam snake.

 

Not seen any rodent damage actually inside the house although the Golden Tree Snakes (probably too small to take on a grown rat) do sometimes occupy the spare bedooms much to the annoyance of the maid who is terrified of them.

Those sticky pads are great, get the buggers stuck to them 

[OneMoreFarang]

6 minutes ago, Excel said:

There is no answer to stopping rats chewing anything , only deterrents.

How about making sure rats never get anywhere near those cables?

I understand that rats can be a problem for houses. And I am also aware that it happens that rats get into condominiums.

But (I think) if I make sure that all walls to the outside of the building and all walls to the inside of the building (including water supply, etc.) are sealed then rats should never arrive and that problem should not exist. Or not?

[Excel]

1 minute ago, OneMoreFarang said:

How about making sure rats never get anywhere near those cables?

I understand that rats can be a problem for houses. And I am also aware that it happens that rats get into condominiums.

But (I think) if I make sure that all walls to the outside of the building and all walls to the inside of the building (including water supply, etc.) are sealed then rats should never arrive and that problem should not exist. Or not?

That is an idealistic approach for sure, but not practical. Have you seen how a rat can climb a smoothish house wall then gnaw thru a facia board or the filler panels under the eaves of roof tiles ?

[carlyai]

4 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

How about making sure rats never get anywhere near those cables?

I understand that rats can be a problem for houses. And I am also aware that it happens that rats get into condominiums.

But (I think) if I make sure that all walls to the outside of the building and all walls to the inside of the building (including water supply, etc.) are sealed then rats should never arrive and that problem should not exist. Or not?

Mate, your mind is made up, I'm not going to p**s in your pocket with a 'yeah, that's great', just do it. 

For what it's worth, I installed cable duckting using that rectangular PVC on top if the bond beam. Cables came up in PVC thru the cavity. Spose you can paint it mult-colors and have it as a feature. Like an underground josh house.

[OneMoreFarang]

5 minutes ago, carlyai said:

Mate, your mind is made up

Actually my mind it not made up. If it would be made up then I wouldn't ask that question here.

 

It's good that people mentioned rats in this thread. And in principle I agree, they can be a problem. But in my case I am pretty sure they won't be a problem. Because now my place is a concrete shell and one of next things that will happen is that all wall cavities (especially near the ceiling) will be closed. And I mean really closed, not just for rats, the idea is to have it closed enough that it is (more or less) sound isolated.

 

But maybe there are other reasons against cable trays. This is why I asked and this is why I am still listening.

 

This is how it looks now on one interior wall. I think that is more or less typical for condominiums. All that will be closed.

[carlyai]

Sorry for my unhelpful reply before. ????

[cmjc]

Interesting discussion.

 

I did wonder why metal conduits were so prevalent.

 

I notice government power line poles are often "decorated" with wire grids around the base., and cables have inverted cones of metal sheet.

 

We occasionally, hear "rodents" in the attic in the Autumn. I frequently see Tree Squirrels nesting in the garden.

 

 

By JJ Harrison (https://www.jjharrison.com.au/) - Own work, CC BY-SA 3.0, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=13379459

 

 

They move very fast, and love to leap from branch to branch.

 

When they hop inside the roof, they sound massive _CLUNK_ but soon lose interest, and vacate. Though I do have pangs of conscience over the unprotected electrical wires casually slung around joists. (Rented house type pangs.)

 

All through the last two Autumn and Winters, I've left the attic access door wide open, and propped a ladder up there, enabling our cats to zoom up when they hear any noise.

 

That seems to scare off the rodents.

 

In her haste to ascend once, "Nivvy" broke a toe claw off the quick, which was very painful for her.

So a shallow angled board would be safer for your cats.

(Warning: Do NOT use Gentian Violet wound dressing in cats. They lick it off, and it wrecks their kidneys and livers.)

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 14, 2022 by cmjc
Add image

[bluejets]

17 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

But maybe there are other reasons against cable trays. This is why I asked and this is why I am still listening.

One is there are derating factors applied to bunched cabling (at least in countries that use rules) and maximum numbers of cables per bunch.

This applies whether in ducting, cable trays or attached via independant cable hangers from the above concrete.

In Aus at least, hanging cables from the ceiling suspension rods is not allowed nor running across the top of ceiling tiles.

Can remember rats and mice being such a problem yonks ago down in the grain growing areas where the only protection was to clip cabling on the underside of rafters.

Won't affect your extra low voltage I'd imagine as one normally can do what they like there.

Although some of the low voltage so-called "transformers" have a maximum length of output cabling of some 2 metres..........yep, can ask me how I know.

Data comes under similar "bunching" limitations as does running parallel (for certain distances) to high curent cabling 

220v and 415v ok on the same trays.........low voltage definetely separate except if using 600v(if I remember correctly) insulated and sheathed insulation, as well as data separate again.

Edited June 14, 2022 by bluejets

[bankruatsteve]

Can't offer a reason against cable trays but don't see any particular benefit for them.  If you have junctions, you will still need a box.  What maintenance issues would be alleviated by trays versus conduit?  Just wondering.

[OneMoreFarang]

5 minutes ago, bankruatsteve said:

What maintenance issues would be alleviated by trays versus conduit?  Just wondering.

I will work with Home Automation (Home Assistant). At the beginning I will use NSPanels and LED lights and maybe a security camera. Later I will probably add motion sensors and maybe additional lights.

And we can be sure that over the next years there will be more and better sensors available. Maybe I will add motorized curtains, all sorts of things.

I can plan for some things ahead but I am sure there will always be things which require new cables. If cable trays are under the ceiling then it will be easy to add additional cables.

[ThailandRyan]

20 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

How about making sure rats never get anywhere near those cables?

I understand that rats can be a problem for houses. And I am also aware that it happens that rats get into condominiums.

But (I think) if I make sure that all walls to the outside of the building and all walls to the inside of the building (including water supply, etc.) are sealed then rats should never arrive and that problem should not exist. Or not?

I tried to make the walls tightly sealed up where i ran the Airconditioning drains on my Condos Balcony, and i am one if 3 penthouses but alas......

 

This just occurred in the past few days. Rat trap in the roof crawl space caught the perp and then I sealed the hole up again.

Edited June 15, 2022 by ThailandRyan

[warrima]

Im on the 8th (top) floor of our building. Last year we heard rats running around above the plasterboard ceiling at night. Caught a few with the sticky traps pushed up through the downlight holes. Eventually found out they were coming in through the cooker fume extraction pipe. None so far this year - I changed the outlet vent to a metal one on the external wall. Neighbors on other floors had the exact same issue. 

[lopburi3]

Keeping them out, without the death penalty - will not be easy as they can get through 1/2" holes.  For many of us death is not an option - catch and release.  That is why you see these sold everywhere.

[captainjackS]

Have you considered steel wireway?  It is easy enough to open and add wires if you have enough access to the space to get your hands and tools in.  Should keep rodents out too if you use correct fittings at corners / junctions.  Also, easy to buy at local electrical suppliers in Thailand.

 

[OneMoreFarang]

10 hours ago, captainjackS said:

Have you considered steel wireway?  It is easy enough to open and add wires if you have enough access to the space to get your hands and tools in.  Should keep rodents out too if you use correct fittings at corners / junctions.  Also, easy to buy at local electrical suppliers in Thailand.

 

Thanks

I considered wireways before and maybe I should consider them again because of the possible rodents.

Until now I liked the idea about trays more because it is easy to just lay cables into that tray, the gravity will make sure that the cables lie in the tray.

With wireways I guess they are mounted on the ceiling or maybe on the wall and the cables have to be fixes in these things so that they don't fall out - at least that is my current understanding.

 

I don't know how resistant plastic wireways are. In principle I like those where it is easy to have cables going in and out at any point. Something like this:

 

I guess it's time for a little more research. 

 

[Muhendis]

I had a problem with rats nibbling through some temperature sensor wiring on the roof of my well shed. After the repair I ran the wire through a flexible plastic conduit. End of problem. It seems the rats have no liking for this type of pvc.

[Captain Monday]

The OP should not be worrying about rodents if these vermin had access to a drop ceiling in a condo he'd have bigger problems already and would not be asking decorating advice.

 

The super convenient certainly modifiable cable trays can be used with a modern industrial look. I wanted to do similar on a project with speakers and lighting fixtures all painted darkest grey with more neutral walls but was vetoed by my interior decorator, Reynaldo,

He did not want it to look like a nightclub.

Edited June 19, 2022 by Captain Monday

[OneMoreFarang]

2 hours ago, Captain Monday said:

The OP should not be worrying about rodents if these vermin had access to a drop ceiling in a condo he'd have bigger problems already and would not be asking decorating advice.

 

The super convenient certainly modifiable cable trays can be used with a modern industrial look. I wanted to do similar on a project with speakers and lighting fixtures all painted darkest grey with more neutral walls but was vetoed by my interior decorator, Reynaldo,

He did not want it to look like a nightclub.

To be fair, I plan to put a false ceiling (nice looking ceiling tiles) below those cable trays.

 

One reason is that I saw a unit in my building where we can see directly up to the concrete ceiling with all those pipes, etc. In principle I am comfortable with industrial look, but in that case it was just too much including fire sprinkler system, waste water pipes from the unit above, etc. 

This picture gives you a first impression. It doesn't have cable trays but I don't think it would look much better if it would have them.

[bluejets]

On 6/18/2022 at 10:33 AM, OneMoreFarang said:

Something like this:

Have you seen the cost of that slotted duct....??

Perhaps not.

 

Last hospital we did here in Aus we used this stuff.

Easy to work with but as usual, still requires threaded rod hangers.

 

 

Edited June 19, 2022 by bluejets

[OneMoreFarang]

19 minutes ago, bluejets said:

Have you seen the cost of that slotted duct....??

Perhaps not.

 

Last hospital we did here in Aus we used this stuff.

Easy to work with but as usual, still requires threaded rod hangers.

 

 

2m long 4x4cm slotted duct cost about 260THB at HomePro. I can live with that, even if it would be double the amount for biggest size.

 

As far as I see cable trays are much more expensive or maybe I didn't find a good supplier yet.

I.e. stainless steel, 3m long 6x6cm for 1825 THB here https://th.rs-online.com/web/p/cable-trays/2216326

But this is still an amount I can live with. Not cheap, but I plan to install them only once in my lifetime. 

[SAFETY FIRST]

On 6/14/2022 at 12:14 PM, OneMoreFarang said:

ceiling tiles.

Ceiling tiles are unsightly, are you sure that's what you want. 

I haven't seen ceiling tiles in a condo before, not in a new condo or renovated. 

They do put ceiling tiles in the bathroom. 

 

The ceiling may have a manhole, but won't allow access, very little space. 

 

Once the ceiling is fitted your wires will be hidden forever. 

 

Edited June 19, 2022 by SAFETY FIRST

[itsari]

On 6/14/2022 at 12:54 PM, Excel said:

That is an idealistic approach for sure, but not practical. Have you seen how a rat can climb a smoothish house wall then gnaw thru a facia board or the filler panels under the eaves of roof tiles ?

No

[Morakot]

7 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

This looks nice. Exposed pipes, trays and conduits work particularly well if you mute them down in gray or black.

 

Obviously red sprinklers against a white background might be too much.

 

If your doing accessible trays, go the whole hog and leave it exposed in a sensible colour palette. Also for certain cozy sections above a settee for instance you even could have small suspended wooden lattice panels that don't touch the walls.

Edited June 19, 2022 by Morakot

[OneMoreFarang]

1 hour ago, SAFETY FIRST said:

Ceiling tiles are unsightly, are you sure that's what you want. 

Many are unsightly, but not all of them.

[SAFETY FIRST]

8 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

10 hours ago, SAFETY FIRST said:

Ceiling tiles are unsightly, are you sure that's what you want. 

Many are unsightly, but not all of them

I reckon recessed ceilings are beautiful. 

In the kitchen you can reverse recess, lots of options.

 

Ceiling tiles are boring, OK for commercial building/office. 

 

Edited June 19, 2022 by SAFETY FIRST