Probate in Thailand

[scorecard]

I'm trying to gather some information on probate in Thailand for a farang friend, basic details are:

 

- The farang the executor of the will of his close long-term farang buddy, all stated in the will. The close friend (owner of the will) has advanced dementia, incapable of any logical, sensibe focused discussion and now near death (78 yo).

- The executor has the sealed original will and also has a never sealed copy, given to him when he agreed to be the executor by the document owner.

- The beneficiaries are 2 Thai men and their families who the near death man has been supporting for decades, they all have open copies of the will. They both share equally in the distribution of his cash (his only asset), all in one bank account, around 5MBaht. There are no other beneficiaries.  

- The executor has full access to withdrawal of the funds from this account. The executor is well trusted by the 2 beneficiaries.

- The near death man now has no land or buildings or vehicles, all liquidated many years ago.

- He has no liabilities whatever (no credit card or similar debt).

 

- My understanding is that there is a probate process in Thailand. However given the details above would it be necessary to actually get the court to grant probate and issue a court order for the distribution of the funds.

 

- I will ask this question to my lawyer in Chiang Mai later today.

 

- My question: Is any member here aware of Thai probate laws and/or real examples, perhaps as above where it's already very clear cut who the benficiaries are and their share, and the executor has access to the funds?   

 

Thanks.

[JimTripper]

I think the executor of the will does so as part of probate, not as an independent entity.

 

It can be either someone named, or appointed by the court, but it is under the umbrella of probate.

 

If anything weird happens the beneficiaries would need to challenge with the court as it goes through probate. Creditors also make and and all claims with the probate court and it is up to the executor to pay off debts (which may not be previously known by the deceased or executor).

 

It's not just something people decide to do on their own, it needs to be done with court oversight so debts get paid off fairly and everyone has recourse if things get dicey.

 

If the executor handles things on their own, they could be held responsible if it's later challenged, or it could look like they were withdrawing funds quickly to get out of paying debts or taxes.

 

If nothing is ever challenged, then I can't see any risk. It just looks like the deceased passed with no assets.

 

Remember that people's memories differ and what seems fair today, is not fair later on when financial problems arise. You know the story when it comes to money.

Edited June 15, 2022 by JimTripper

[JimTripper]

https://www.thaiembassy.com/property/thai-probate-and-inheritance-law

[HarrySeaman]

The Thai attorney who created the original will should be the one to see you through the necessary probate process.  The probate court will verify that you are of good character and will follow the wishes of the deceased, then give you a court order to the bank so you can access the deceased's funds for distribution according to the directions in the will.

Assuming the above description fits you the probate process should be quick and easy.

[CMBob]

Yes, probably wise to let a Thai attorney handle filing of the application for probate and subsequent orders allowing you to distribute the funds per the provisions of the Will.  And would recommend you get a quote from the attorney as to the cost.  I was told by the CM attorney who drafted my Thai Will that the probate would take 5-6 months to complete and the attorney fee would be around 60,000 baht.

If the Will is in Thai, you're all set; if not, a certified translation will be required.  As executor, you'll be responsible for paying the last expenses (medical, funeral) costs for the Decedent from the estate funds (or, perhaps, you'll be reimbursed later for paying before the reimbursement is authorized by the local probate court).  

Upon his death, you'll need to get a release from the hospital (which basically means expenses have been paid) and a release from the Decedent's Embassy/Consulate.  Both of those are required before you'll be able to retrieve the body from a morgue.

If Decedent is a US citizen, cops and/or hospital will notify the US Consulate of the death and Consulate personnel will start the "looking for kin" process.....which you should promptly head off by visiting the Consulate and showing them the Decedent's Will.  I don't know Embassy/Consulate procedures for other nationals.

 

[NancyL]

I've been involved in several similar situations in Chiang Mai where the branch bank that held the accounts knew the wishes of the deceased and the executor very well and probate was avoided.  In one case, they wanted a "Thai person of high standing" to guarantee if case someone challenged their decision to distribute the funds to the executor.  This was done.

 

In the other cases, they were happy to have a long-term foreign resident who had accounts on deposit that exceeded the amount of the deceased estate serve as the guaranteer.  The branch bank basically wants to cover itself in case someone comes in later to challenge the Final Will, like a spouse that was never divorced or a child.  

 

This all depends on the branch bank management being willing to do this and only works if there are no other assets besides the bank accounts.

 

Probate, of course, gives the bank complete legal cover, but the method proposed above also works if the bank management is comfortable with the situation, esp if the beneficiaries need access to the money soon, like to convert a dependent spouse visa extension into a retirement visa or for a Thai widow to have money to survive.  In these cases, the wait for probate is just cruel.

[scorecard]

Thanks for sharing Nancy.  The case I'm close to could be that easy but...

 

There's 4 Thai beneficiaries in a legal will, they were all close and keen to have the dying farangs wishes respected but suddenly one of these guys is playing games. 

 

The funds involved were all consolidated into one BBL savings account several years ago and there are no other assets or liabilities (except hospital bills for ICU accommodation, which of course is draining the bank account quickly and the hospital - part of the Bkk hospital group - have an ongoing signed authority to draw direct from the bank account).

 

The executor (a farang who is well respected by all of the beneficiaries) has tried to get the authority the hospital holds suspended but the lawyer involved won't cooperate at all.

 

Further, the executor is well known to the bank manager and has appraoches the bank manager with a copy of the will and asked the bank manager if he would agree to directly distribute the funds to the 4 beneficiries when the very ill man passes on (he has very advanced dementia, getting worse all the time).

 

The bank manager initially said he would cooperate if given:

 

- a copy of the will (which is in Thai and English, and which states the details of the % share for the 4 beneficiares), countersigned by the 4 beneficiaries to be correct and up to date.

- plus a statement prepared by the licensed lawyer who prepared the will and signed by the 4 benficiareis that they all agree to distribution of the funds outside of the probate process.

 

But the bank manager now very hesitant to be involved. This could have been the best/simplest/fair way to disberse the funds (total around 5mBaht), but now the Thai beneficiary who gets the biggest share now wants to challenge the will and demand 100% of the funds availble.

 

The executor is now trying to get the beneficiary who wants more to abandon this demand, in writing and therefore hopefully get the situation back to a scenario where the bank manager will agree to distribute the funds outside of the probate process. The approach to the beneficiary who wants more is that he actually has no legitimate/valid/ethical claim for more. 

 

We wait and see, meanwhile the hospital is really draining the bank account. The opinion of one Thai Dr. (from the Naval hospital at Satha Hip) is that the various/numerous/expensive additional tests on the bills are totally unnecessary.

 

We wait and see. 

 

As above Nancy, thanks for sharing, all valuable info., and valuable insights.

[JimTripper]

9 hours ago, scorecard said:

The approach to the beneficiary who wants more is that he actually has no legitimate/valid/ethical claim for more. 

That's what you think.

Edited June 19, 2022 by JimTripper

[scorecard]

4 hours ago, JimTripper said:

That's what you think.

It's not a matter of what I think.

 

However the reality is that all 4 of the benficiaries have been equally very supportive / given great kindness to the dying man for many many years, it was a 2 way situation, the dying man has been very kind to all 4 of them and carful that it's been equal to all 4.

 

The dying man is recognizing all of that in his will. Further the dying man is very close to the executor and whilst still fully lucid explained his wishes to the executor and the lawyer as the reason for what's expressed in his will.

 

'The no valid claim' comment is from the lawyer. Whether a judge might listen and be convinced to change the beneficiaries is of course another issue.

 

It's not up to me in any way. 

[JimTripper]

On 6/19/2022 at 1:31 PM, scorecard said:

It's not a matter of what I think.

 

However the reality is that all 4 of the benficiaries have been equally very supportive / given great kindness to the dying man for many many years, it was a 2 way situation, the dying man has been very kind to all 4 of them and carful that it's been equal to all 4.

 

The dying man is recognizing all of that in his will. Further the dying man is very close to the executor and whilst still fully lucid explained his wishes to the executor and the lawyer as the reason for what's expressed in his will.

 

'The no valid claim' comment is from the lawyer. Whether a judge might listen and be convinced to change the beneficiaries is of course another issue.

 

It's not up to me in any way. 

Every post you make is your opinion on what the reality is. If I were to ask the other parties involved the chances are pretty good I would get a different story each time.

 

Put it through probate if there is squabbling involved. That includes with the lawyer or the bank manager, or any beneficiaries. You are likely going to need court oversight if your bickering.

 

Are you in contact with the other parties, contacting them to relay what "other people said or think?". It's common for people to do that as a way of manipulating the outcome, whether you realize it or not.

[scorecard]

3 hours ago, JimTripper said:

Every post you make is your opinion on what the reality is. If I were to ask the other parties involved the chances are pretty good I would get a different story each time.

 

Put it through probate if there is squabbling involved. That includes with the lawyer or the bank manager, or any beneficiaries. You are likely going to need court oversight if your bickering.

 

Are you in contact with the other parties, contacting them to relay what "other people said or think?". It's common for people to do that as a way of manipulating the outcome, whether you realize it or not.

I don't disagree with anything you wrote. I do note that it's just your opinion. 

[sanuk711]

On 6/15/2022 at 1:56 PM, scorecard said:

The close friend (owner of the will) has advanced dementia, incapable of any logical, sensibe focused discussion and now near death (78 yo).

scorecard--who handles his money at the moment ?....... If he is this close to death, would it be sensible to take the majority of it out and distribute now-just leaving enough to cover cost of cremation etc. 

 

I have an aversion to paying lawyers -if it can be avoided.

[scorecard]

32 minutes ago, sanuk711 said:

scorecard--who handles his money at the moment ?....... If he is this close to death, would it be sensible to take the majority of it out and distribute now-just leaving enough to cover cost of cremation etc. 

 

I have an aversion to paying lawyers -if it can be avoided.

Good points of course.

 

The dying man's dementia is now quite advanced and getting worse, and he has severe breathing problems. He gave the bank book and ATM card to one of the 4 benefiaries about 2 weeks ago. In his will he leaves equal share of his remaining funds to the 4.

But very recently the beneficiary now holding the b'book an ATM card has announced he wants to keep all the money himself to buy a new car to use to travel often from Bkk to Pattaya where the dying man is in ICU. (Truth is he already has a good reliable car.)

The Thai lawyer is in the US for an extended holiday with Thai family there and doesn't respond to requests for advice.

Further, the hospital holds a signed authority which they take to the bank with their quite frequent bills (not small because he's most of the time in ICU) and the bank manager then automatically transfers funds to the hospital. 

All of this has been discussed with the 4 beneficiaries. The 3 who are being logical don't want the 4th to just drain the bank and keep all the money. They want their share.

I've had a close friendship with the dying man for many years but I'm not the executor of his will, I'm just watching from the sidelines.

The executor (a trusted farang) has tried to discuss the whole thing with the dying man earlier without any result but he's now not capable at all of any logical / focused discussion. 

At the rate the funds are being reduced by the hospital bills the balance will be zero within perhaps 5 or 6 months.   

[JimTripper]

1 hour ago, scorecard said:

Good points of course.

 

The dying man's dementia is now quite advanced and getting worse, and he has severe breathing problems. He gave the bank book and ATM card to one of the 4 benefiaries about 2 weeks ago. In his will he leaves equal share of his remaining funds to the 4.

But very recently the beneficiary now holding the b'book an ATM card has announced he wants to keep all the money himself to buy a new car to use to travel often from Bkk to Pattaya where the dying man is in ICU. (Truth is he already has a good reliable car.)

The Thai lawyer is in the US for an extended holiday with Thai family there and doesn't respond to requests for advice.

Further, the hospital holds a signed authority which they take to the bank with their quite frequent bills (not small because he's most of the time in ICU) and the bank manager then automatically transfers funds to the hospital. 

All of this has been discussed with the 4 beneficiaries. The 3 who are being logical don't want the 4th to just drain the bank and keep all the money. They want their share.

I've had a close friendship with the dying man for many years but I'm not the executor of his will, I'm just watching from the sidelines.

The executor (a trusted farang) has tried to discuss the whole thing with the dying man earlier without any result but he's now not capable at all of any logical / focused discussion. 

At the rate the funds are being reduced by the hospital bills the balance will be zero within perhaps 5 or 6 months.   

Going to probate typically freezes accounts including withdrawls and debits. This requires passing obviously. Mistake was to give out account access early imo.

 

Now that one beneficiary has the ATM card you could get a Dr at the hospital to certify incapacity of the primary and give the letter to the bank manager to block withdrawls using the bankbook and ATM card. The hospital debits will likely be allowed unless you move the primary to another facility.

 

If the lone beneficiary decides to start making withdrawls, the primary is going to be at risk of not receiving care if the hospital cannot bill for the costs. I would talk to the Dr and bank manager asap.

Edited June 23, 2022 by JimTripper

[scorecard]

1 hour ago, JimTripper said:

Going to probate typically freezes accounts including withdrawls and debits. This requires passing obviously. Mistake was to give out account access early imo.

 

Now that one beneficiary has the ATM card you could get a Dr at the hospital to certify incapacity of the primary and give the letter to the bank manager to block withdrawls using the bankbook and ATM card. The hospital debits will likely be allowed unless you move the primary to another facility.

 

If the lone beneficiary decides to start making withdrawls, the primary is going to be at risk of not receiving care if the hospital cannot bill for the costs. I would talk to the Dr and bank manager asap.

Thanks. I will forward your comments to the executor, I know he has had several discussions with the snr. doctor at the hospital. What comes to mind is that the hospital involved has a reputation for high charges* etc., and (different point) I fear that the hospital will fight strongly against any move to cancel the authority they hold. But of course it could be worth trying.  

       (* The patient has been close to death several times, and each time the hospital seems to have

          gone to the bank more often/more frequently and received instant payments.

In more recent times the beneficiary holding the bank book and ATM card seems to have reduced his level of concern for the welfare of the dying man and increased his focus on getting as much cash as he can.)

 

The beneficiary who is holding the bank book and ATM card is not always a pleasant man.

 

It's known that someone has told him if the patient dies and there's no money in the bank, then the beneficiaries would be ordered by the court to pay the hospital bills. Very doubtful of course but he seems to believe this is true, therefore perhaps that's why he hasn't drained the account. 

 

Having said all of the above, yes there's some fact involved and there's some opinion involved. 

 

 

Edited June 23, 2022 by scorecard

[JimTripper]

19 hours ago, scorecard said:

Thanks. I will forward your comments to the executor, I know he has had several discussions with the snr. doctor at the hospital. What comes to mind is that the hospital involved has a reputation for high charges* etc., and (different point) I fear that the hospital will fight strongly against any move to cancel the authority they hold. But of course it could be worth trying.  

       (* The patient has been close to death several times, and each time the hospital seems to have

          gone to the bank more often/more frequently and received instant payments.

In more recent times the beneficiary holding the bank book and ATM card seems to have reduced his level of concern for the welfare of the dying man and increased his focus on getting as much cash as he can.)

 

The beneficiary who is holding the bank book and ATM card is not always a pleasant man.

 

It's known that someone has told him if the patient dies and there's no money in the bank, then the beneficiaries would be ordered by the court to pay the hospital bills. Very doubtful of course but he seems to believe this is true, therefore perhaps that's why he hasn't drained the account. 

 

Having said all of the above, yes there's some fact involved and there's some opinion involved. 

That's troublesome because it's happening while the primary is still alive. It's not connected to any trust, will, or any bills after death. It's just like giving somebody your atm card.

 

On second thought, you may need to prove incapacity at the time bank access was granted (that can't be done to a certainty like a court would like since the evaluation was not performed at that point in time) in order to hold the beneficiary liable for withdrawing funds, NOT Now after the patient is already declining mentally. Heavy stuff for a lawyer to contemplate.

Edited June 24, 2022 by JimTripper

[scorecard]

3 hours ago, JimTripper said:

That's troublesome because it's happening while the primary is still alive. It's not connected to any trust, will, or any bills after death. It's just like giving somebody your atm card.

 

On second thought, you may need to prove incapacity at the time bank access was granted (that can't be done to a certainty like a court would like since the evaluation was not performed at that point in time) in order to hold the beneficiary liable for withdrawing funds, NOT Now after the patient is already declining mentally. Heavy stuff for a lawyer to contemplate.

"...you may need to prove incapacity at the time bank access was granted (that can't be done to a certainty like a court would like since the evaluation was not performed at that point in time)  ..."

 

This is why the executor has been trying to contact the Thai lawyer who is on a very extended vacation in the US but lawyer won't answer his phone and won't answer e.mails (lawyer is from Pattaya).

 

Executor somehow got the mobile no., of a family member where lawyer is staying in the USA. Someone answered the phone in English and executor asked to speak to the lawyer. Response 'oh just a moment'. But when executor said who he was and 'I need to talk to you urgently about xxxx xxxxxx' he hung up. 

 

Executor has since been to the main police station in Pattaya and spoke to a snr. cop there (good English) who (not surprisingly) said 'the police cannot get involved, suggest you find another lawyer' and gave the executor a printed list of 5 lawyers.

 

Executor and 2 of the benefifiaries went to 3 lawyers on the list, mentioned challenging the order held by the hospital. When name of hospital disclosed they all quickly said they were too busy.

 

Next step ???

 

 

 

Edited June 24, 2022 by scorecard

[JimTripper]

You could play hardball and block the beneficiaries access on your own.

 

Report the card or bankbook missing and get new ones with a different number sent to the address on record with the bank, assuming the beneficiary did not change the address. You have the owners info, do it online or call in. The card is technically missing, how can the owner buy coffee?

 

Forget the hospital drafts for now, focus on freezing the account from normal withdrawls first or it's too distracting to do both now.

Edited June 24, 2022 by JimTripper

[JimTripper]

You could always keep records from the hospital and challenge the charges later with a lawyer if the patient passes. There is no reason to do it now, especially if it puts their care at risk.

[scorecard]

3 hours ago, JimTripper said:

You could play hardball and block the beneficiaries access on your own.

 

Report the card or bankbook missing and get new ones with a different number sent to the address on record with the bank, assuming the beneficiary did not change the address. You have the owners info, do it online or call in. The card is technically missing, how can the owner buy coffee?

 

Forget the hospital drafts for now, focus on freezing the account from normal withdrawls first or it's too distracting to do both now.

Thanks, I'll share your comments with the executor.
I believe the hospital puts a a copy of each bill and a copy of the banking transfer in the hospital bedside nightstand, and from earlier comments the executor has been keeping all of these on a file.  

 

As mentioned, I'm not actively involved.

 

 

Edited June 24, 2022 by scorecard