The REAL EV vehicle discussion thread.....

[transam]

  On 6/30/2022 at 9:15 AM, KhunLA said:

Not one fueling station in TH, and if in the USA, you better live in S. California.

 

Hydrogen ... what a joke.  25 years ago & today.

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Who's talking about Thailand, Thailand is having trouble setting up EV power stations. ????

How long has the next stage of electricity production been in the pipeline to take over from nuclear power..........?

 

[Yellowtail]

  On 6/30/2022 at 9:15 AM, KhunLA said:

Not one fueling station in TH, and if in the USA, you better live in S. California.

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Yeah, it's not for someone that is unable to do a little planning. 

 

  On 6/30/2022 at 9:15 AM, KhunLA said:

Hydrogen ... what a joke.  25 years ago & today.

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And EVs have bee around for well over 100 years.

[transam]

  On 6/30/2022 at 9:38 AM, placeholder said:

Powertrains warranties for ICE vehicles typically expire at 5 years or 60,000 miles.  I guess nobody will buy an ICE vehicle nearing 5 years or 60,000 miles because they're afraid the engine will fail.

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We all know modern day engines go on for ever, if change the oil and filter at the correct times, they are not a battery, but under hood batteries last usually 2+ years in LOS, where is the battery tech there...?

Seems EV rides with early failing battery pack can be from a heat problem, better EV's have a cooling system built in, I'm sure MG has that. ????

I hate to mention MG again, but they guaranty their piston rides for 7 years in the UK, only 4 years in LOS, or 100,000miles, I wonder why..????

[placeholder]

  On 6/30/2022 at 9:54 AM, transam said:

We all know modern day engines go on for ever, if change the oil and filter at the correct times, they are not a battery, but under hood batteries last usually 2+ years in LOS, where is the battery tech there...?

Seems EV rides with early failing battery pack can be from a heat problem, better EV's have a cooling system built in, I'm sure MG has that. ????

I hate to mention MG again, but they guaranty their piston rides for 7 years in the UK, only 4 years in LOS, or 100,000miles, I wonder why..????

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Well, as the data accumulates about battery life, it's becoming clear that they also mostly last far beyond the the guaranteed limits. So, just like it's common knowledge about engines, it's also becoming common knowledge about batteries. As the market grows, and it's growing very quickly, this will be widely understood.

[transam]

  On 6/30/2022 at 9:58 AM, placeholder said:

Well, as the data accumulates about battery life, it's becoming clear that they also mostly last far beyond the the guaranteed limits. So, just like it's common knowledge about engines, it's also becoming common knowledge about batteries. As the market grows, and it's growing very quickly, this will be widely understood.

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I have yet to see EV's in numbers actually used on the road for 8 years to make such a statement.

My dad lasted 88 years, does this mean I will last 88 years too.....????.

I doubt it.....????

[Yellowtail]

There are a lot of relatively minor things that can go wrong with an ICE as it gets older which would nickel and dime manufacturers to death. If it were a good bet they'd last ten-years/200,000km with little or no attention, everyone would offer ten-years/200,000km warranties except companies desperate for market share, and they would be offering 15-years/300,000km. 

 

Batteries (and individual cells) are typically either good or bad. If it were a good bet a battery would last ten-years, everyone would be offering ten-year warranties. 

 

[KhunLA]

I've yet to keep a car in Thailand for more than 7 years, let alone 8.  That will probably change with the EV, or not.  Who know in 8 yrs ... 

BUT

Saving on operating cost over those 8 years / 180k kms is huge, especially if putting even close to the 22.5 kms they think is average. 

 

If most of the charging energy comes from excess solar at the house, some might consider that damn near free operating cost for 8 yrs/ 180k kms

 

Save 500-600k baht or more ... that's more than 1/2 the price of the ZS ... like a giant rebate. More you use, more you save.

 

If you bought the EP ... damn near a free car in 8 yrs/180k kms.

 

Old #s, so need to add a few baht & that's just petrol cost saved.

 

Under warranty ... where is the down side to this equation ... ????

 

Y'all are seriously going to say, spending 600+k baht to operate an ICE, is better than saving 600k baht by buying an EV.

 

Don't forget your oil changes, tune-up, belts (2 timings, maybe)

 

Y'all need some new batteries for your calculators.

[placeholder]

  On 6/30/2022 at 10:04 AM, transam said:

I have yet to see EV's in numbers actually used on the road for 8 years to make such a statement.

My dad lasted 88 years, does this mean I will last 88 years too.....????.

I doubt it.....????

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Studies of Older Electric Car Batteries

Another EV that’s been on the road many years is the Tesla Model S. It launched in 2012 so battery scientists have a lot of data. Maarten Steinbuch, who shares community-sourced Tesla data, suggested in 2020 that drivers can expect faster decay in the first 25,000 mile with a much slower decay to 175,000 miles. 

https://www.recurrentauto.com/research/how-long-do-ev-batteries-last

 

Also, the cost of replacing car batteries can be a lot lower if a refurbished battery is used:

 Nissan, for example, charges more than $12,000, but recently the company has offered a refurbished battery pack in Japan for less than $3,000. 

https://www.consumerreports.org/hybrids-evs/your-ev-questions-answered-electric-vehicle-faq/

[placeholder]

  On 6/30/2022 at 10:08 AM, Yellowtail said:

There are a lot of relatively minor things that can go wrong with an ICE as it gets older which would nickel and dime manufacturers to death. If it were a good bet they'd last ten-years/200,000km with little or no attention, everyone would offer ten-years/200,000km warranties except companies desperate for market share, and they would be offering 15-years/300,000km. 

 

Batteries (and individual cells) are typically either good or bad. If it were a good bet a battery would last ten-years, everyone would be offering ten-year warranties. 

 

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Really? In that case it must be a bad  bet for engines in ICE vehicles to last past 5 years or 60,000 miles. 

[Yellowtail]

  On 6/30/2022 at 10:42 AM, placeholder said:

Really? In that case it must be a bad  bet for engines in ICE vehicles to last past 5 years or 60,000 miles. 

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Isn't that what I said? 

[placeholder]

  On 6/30/2022 at 11:02 AM, Yellowtail said:

Isn't that what I said? 

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Well, the point is that the powertrain on an ICE vehicle typically lasts a lot longer than 5 years or 60,000 miles. Despite which, that's what most manufacturers offer. So, it's no proof that just because EV batteries are insured for 8 years or 100000 miles, that they won't typically last a lot longer.

[Yellowtail]

  On 6/30/2022 at 11:07 AM, placeholder said:

Well, the point is that the powertrain on an ICE vehicle typically lasts a lot longer than 5 years or 60,000 miles. Despite which, that's what most manufacturers offer. So, it's no proof that just because EV batteries are insured for 8 years or 100000 miles, that they won't typically last a lot longer.

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Did you even read what I said? What I said was: There are a lot of relatively minor things that can go wrong with an ICE as it gets older which would nickel and dime manufacturers to death. If it were a good bet they'd last ten-years/200,000km with little or no attention, everyone would offer ten-years/200,000km warranties except companies desperate for market share, and they would be offering 15-years/300,000km. i 

 

It is common for the engine/drivetrain to 100, 200 and even 300,000 miles, but not without some attention, and that attention can be great for dealerships providing warranty service, but it can really hurt the manufacturer. 

 

I went on to say that: Batteries (and individual cells) are typically either good or bad. If it were a good bet a battery would last ten-years, everyone would be offering ten-year warranties. 

 

Manufacturers typically offer as long a warranty as is cost effective.

 

The Ford F-150 Lightning sells for about 20% more than a comparably equipped ICE F-150 and it is sold out for three years production and they are losing money on every unit. 

[KhunLA]

  On 6/30/2022 at 11:07 AM, placeholder said:

Well, the point is that the powertrain on an ICE vehicle typically lasts a lot longer than 5 years or 60,000 miles. Despite which, that's what most manufacturers offer. So, it's no proof that just because EV batteries are insured for 8 years or 100000 miles, that they won't typically last a lot longer.

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Some people keep reading the battery is dead after the warranty.

 

The warranties for 70-80% of battery capacity remaining after the 8 years, depending on manufacturer.  I believe MG is 70%.  

 

As with everything, take of it, it will take care of you.

 

Older tech ... 7 yr old Tesla, 5% ... @ 8:30 of the vid

 

[Yellowtail]

  On 6/30/2022 at 10:35 AM, KhunLA said:

I've yet to keep a car in Thailand for more than 7 years, let alone 8.  That will probably change with the EV, or not.  Who know in 8 yrs ... 

BUT

Saving on operating cost over those 8 years / 180k kms is huge, especially if putting even close to the 22.5 kms they think is average. 

 

If most of the charging energy comes from excess solar at the house, some might consider that damn near free operating cost for 8 yrs/ 180k kms

 

Save 500-600k baht or more ... that's more than 1/2 the price of the ZS ... like a giant rebate. More you use, more you save.

 

If you bought the EP ... damn near a free car in 8 yrs/180k kms.

 

Old #s, so need to add a few baht & that's just petrol cost saved.

 

Under warranty ... where is the down side to this equation ... ????

 

Y'all are seriously going to say, spending 600+k baht to operate an ICE, is better than saving 600k baht by buying an EV.

 

Don't forget your oil changes, tune-up, belts (2 timings, maybe)

 

Y'all need some new batteries for your calculators.

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I drive a Fortuner, and in the last 12 months I've spent 28,960 on fuel and 5,402 on service. 

 

I thought you said you would not drive 200,000km in twenty years, so apparently you go from less than 10K a year to 22.5K a year when you calculate your savings. 

 

Oh, and in the 12 months I traveled 9,776km. 

 

 

 

[Lacessit]

  On 6/29/2022 at 11:53 AM, placeholder said:

You expect people to spend half an hour viewing a car dealer dispute the science behind climate change? It is to laugh.

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Obviously you have never watched any of this guy's videos, he is a firm supporter of climate change science. What he is disputing is the BS car companies put out, in terms of their products magically becoming environmentally sustainable, when they are hybrids and full EV's.

[placeholder]

  On 6/30/2022 at 12:01 PM, Lacessit said:

Obviously you have never watched any of this guy's videos, he is a firm supporter of climate change science. What he is disputing is the BS car companies put out, in terms of their products magically becoming environmentally sustainable, when they are hybrids and full EV's.

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Even if so, why should I care what a car dealer from Australia says? And why should I have to spend a half hour of my life watching a video. If he or anyone else has something worthy to say , put it in writing where it's far easier to fact-check and analyze what is being claimed. Or maybe that's the point of only disseminating videos? 

[KhunLA]

  On 6/30/2022 at 11:42 AM, Yellowtail said:

I drive a Fortuner, and in the last 12 months I've spent 28,960 on fuel and 5,402 on service. 

 

I thought you said you would not drive 200,000km in twenty years, so apparently you go from less than 10K a year to 22.5K a year when you calculate your savings. 

 

Oh, and in the 12 months I traveled 9,776km. 

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Just using the warranty as a base, and people can put in the #s they want.  But for any realistic comparison, you need a baseline.  IF going by my driving over the past 20 years, then yes, I would be hitting that 20k a year mark.  Which I did in 6 months, after receiving the ZS.

 

I sold 2 Vios and gave the Mazda to daughter.  Try to sell before the 2nd timing belt change, so knocking on 150, and Mazda had 125 on it, if memory serves.  So 400+ over 20 yrs, 20k a year.

 

That's a lot of out & abouts, and 70 kms a day school runs.  School runs, done, and out & abouts, winding down .... or not.  As I do have quite a few planned, and want to get them in before the tourist return in big #s.

 

As stated before, sure we'll racking up the kms once the house & solar is done.  Go by the past 6 months, and it would be 5k a year, as stuck locally, and most of those on the scooter.

 

But you knew that, as explained a couple times already.  Last time you pointed it out.

 

You drove less than 10k ... huh.

[Lacessit]

  On 6/30/2022 at 12:13 PM, placeholder said:

Even if so, why should I care what a car dealer from Australia says? And why should I have to spend a half hour of my life watching a video. If he or anyone else has something worthy to say , put it in writing where it's far easier to fact-check and analyze what is being claimed. Or maybe that's the point of only disseminating videos? 

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Because he is an experienced mechanical engineer, was a motoring journalist for many years, and IMO is worth listening to. He's not a car dealer, he brokers pricing between car buyers and car dealers.

If you are going to dismiss videos because they don't fit your preference for shorter communications, your choice, your loss.

 

[placeholder]

  On 6/30/2022 at 12:29 PM, Lacessit said:

Because he is an experienced mechanical engineer, was a motoring journalist for many years, and IMO is worth listening to. He's not a car dealer, he brokers pricing between car buyers and car dealers.

If you are going to dismiss videos because they don't fit your preference for shorter communications, your choice, your loss.

 

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So, after you saw the video did you fact check his claims?

[transam]

  On 6/30/2022 at 10:39 AM, placeholder said:

Studies of Older Electric Car Batteries

Another EV that’s been on the road many years is the Tesla Model S. It launched in 2012 so battery scientists have a lot of data. Maarten Steinbuch, who shares community-sourced Tesla data, suggested in 2020 that drivers can expect faster decay in the first 25,000 mile with a much slower decay to 175,000 miles. 

https://www.recurrentauto.com/research/how-long-do-ev-batteries-last

 

Also, the cost of replacing car batteries can be a lot lower if a refurbished battery is used:

 Nissan, for example, charges more than $12,000, but recently the company has offered a refurbished battery pack in Japan for less than $3,000. 

https://www.consumerreports.org/hybrids-evs/your-ev-questions-answered-electric-vehicle-faq/

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Do all manufacturers use Tesla batteries, I'm sure MG does......????

[Lacessit]

  On 6/30/2022 at 2:01 PM, placeholder said:

So, after you saw the video did you fact check his claims?

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I've been subscribing to his channel for several years, he is a no-BS straight shooter. Hated by all car dealers, motoring bodies, and car magazines, because he calls them out on the nonsense they come up with. When he makes a claim, he invariably backs it up with scientific evidence and simple logic.

For example, he makes the claim most EV owners are kidding themselves if they think they are environmentally responsible, because the process of making and disposing of batteries is highly toxic, and most EV owners are getting their recharging electrons from carbon dioxide-emitting fossil-fueled power stations. Spare me the solar panel BS, and tell me where his logic is wrong.

The only real argument EV owners have got - and it's a good one - is the running cost per kilometre.

[transam]

  On 6/30/2022 at 11:30 AM, KhunLA said:

Some people keep reading the battery is dead after the warranty.

 

The warranties for 70-80% of battery capacity remaining after the 8 years, depending on manufacturer.  I believe MG is 70%.  

 

As with everything, take of it, it will take care of you.

 

Older tech ... 7 yr old Tesla, 5% ... @ 8:30 of the vid

 

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You are twisting what has been said, chap.....????

[placeholder]

  On 7/1/2022 at 1:49 AM, transam said:

Do all manufacturers use Tesla batteries, I'm sure MG does......????

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If you read the article from the link you'll note that early  Nissan Leaf batteries, which don't have thermal cooling systems also hold up extremely well. MG batteries are manufactured via a consortium of SAIC and CATL. CATL is the company that just came out with the longest range battery to date. It's also the largest battery manufacturer in the world. Let's just say it's very unlikely that given the state of battery manufacturing today,  that a battery that lasts 8 years or 100,000 miles is suddenly going to die shortly after that limit has been reached. 

[transam]

  On 6/30/2022 at 12:13 PM, placeholder said:

Even if so, why should I care what a car dealer from Australia says? And why should I have to spend a half hour of my life watching a video. If he or anyone else has something worthy to say , put it in writing where it's far easier to fact-check and analyze what is being claimed. Or maybe that's the point of only disseminating videos? 

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I can pause videos on my PC, it's 10 years old too, doesn't have a battery though......????

[transam]

  On 7/1/2022 at 1:57 AM, placeholder said:

If you read the article from the link you'll note that early  Nissan Leaf batteries, which don't have thermal cooling systems also hold up extremely well. MG batteries are manufactured via a consortium of SAIC and CATL. CATL is the company that just came out with the longest range battery to date. It's also the largest battery manufacturer in the world. Let's just say it's very unlikely that given the state of battery manufacturing today,  that a battery that lasts 8 years or 100,000 miles is suddenly going to die shortly after that limit has been reached. 

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Nobody has said it will..........????

[KhunLA]

  On 7/1/2022 at 1:49 AM, transam said:

Do all manufacturers use Tesla batteries, I'm sure MG does......????

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As a matter of fact ...

"The power behind MG’s battery technology

08-12-2020

The MG ZS EV and MG EHS Plug-in Hybrid benefit from highly advanced battery technology with an impressive level of safety and durability. That’s because MG’s parent company – SAIC Motor – is one of the most experienced EV manufacturers in the world, which also partners with China’s largest lithium-ion battery manufacturer CATL."

https://news.mgmotor.eu/the-power-behind-mg-battery-technology/

 

"CATL

Chinese battery giant CATL (300750.SZ) is currently the sole supplier of LFP batteries to Tesla, which has been installing such batteries in cars manufactured in the Shanghai plant since 2020.Jun 7, 2565 BE"

 

"Batteries are the heart of all EVs and one of Tesla’s key battery suppliers, CATL, has remained on top in the battery race."

https://thedriven.io/2022/05/06/teslas-key-battery-supplier/

 

Tesla will also be using BYD's batteries in the future, according to a new-blip from BYD.

[KhunLA]

Batteries dead after 8 yrs ...

YEA .. KEEP ON SPINING THAT ONE ????

 

"Another proof of leading battery technology comes from a Roewe E550, a plug-in hybrid from the sister brand of MG under SAIC Motor Group, and the first electrified model launched by SAIC Motor eight years ago.

 

Recently, an existing model with over 575,000 kilometres was found. Engineers of SAIC Motor took it to the workshop and fully examined all drive components. In addition, the battery was sent to the battery laboratory of the Tsinghua University to measure the actual battery performance.

 

The University proved that the battery, eight years and 575,000 kilometres after it left the factory, still offers 85% of its original capacity. "

 

https://news.mgmotor.eu/the-power-behind-mg-battery-technology/

 

 

[placeholder]

  On 7/1/2022 at 1:52 AM, Lacessit said:

I've been subscribing to his channel for several years, he is a no-BS straight shooter. Hated by all car dealers, motoring bodies, and car magazines, because he calls them out on the nonsense they come up with. When he makes a claim, he invariably backs it up with scientific evidence and simple logic.

For example, he makes the claim most EV owners are kidding themselves if they think they are environmentally responsible, because the process of making and disposing of batteries is highly toxic, and most EV owners are getting their recharging electrons from carbon dioxide-emitting fossil-fueled power stations. Spare me the solar panel BS, and tell me where his logic is wrong.

The only real argument EV owners have got - and it's a good one - is the running cost per kilometre.

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As was obvious, you haven't fact checked him. (Not surprising given that the way the information is presented (I peeked) would make it virtually impossible to do so.)

If you had, you would know that EV battery recycling is already a profitable business with lots of room for growth.

"Much like Tesla was years ago, Redwood is entering into relatively uncharted territory, and it will spend a great deal of time growing and reinvesting. However, Straubel says the actual operation of recycling the batteries is already a money maker"

https://insideevs.com/news/564366/jb-straubel-battery-recycling-profitability/#:~:text=Much like Tesla was years,is already a money maker.

 

In fact, the recycled lithium portion of the battery is actually superior in performance to the freshly mined stuff the 2nd time around.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S2542435121004335

 

What's more, when the charge falls below 70%, the batteries increasingly aren't immediately disassembled and recycled but instead can be used  for industrial energy storage systems. So not only is this usefu in itself, but it allows time for the recycling industry to ramp up.

 

Old Electric-Vehicle Batteries Are Getting a Second Life

Auto makers like Nissan and Renault are using retired batteries to build large-scale energy-storage systems

https://www.wsj.com/articles/old-electric-vehicle-batteries-are-getting-a-second-life-11655114401

 

As for getting their power from fossil fueled power plants, most of the new power plants being built today are solar or wind.

Renewables Take Lion’s Share of Global Power Additions in 2021 

Renewable energy continued to expand steadily and well above the long-term trend, with share in total capacity expansion reaching new record of 81% last year

https://www.irena.org/newsroom/pressreleases/2022/Apr/Renewables-Take-Lions-Share-of-Global-Power-Additions-in-2021

 

 

Of course, since the installed base goes back years, there's still a lot of power plants that are fossil fueled. But that balance is shifting. So, over time EV's will contribute less and less to CO2. And unless a country's electricity comes mostly from coal, EVs still produce less CO2 than do ICE vehicles.

 

"A new study by the universities of Exeter and Cambridge in the UK and Nijmegen in the Netherlands has concluded that electric cars lead to lower carbon emissions overall, even if electricity generation still relies on fossil fuels. The results are reported in the journal Nature Sustainability.

Under current conditions, driving an electric car is better for the climate than conventional petrol cars in 95% of the world, the study finds.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/mikescott/2020/03/30/yes-electric-cars-are-cleaner-even-when-the-power-comes-from-coal/?sh=21855d362320

 

So, in conclusion, that car salesman is either an willfully ignorant or massively dishonest. I guess it could be both. 

[placeholder]

  On 6/30/2022 at 12:01 PM, Lacessit said:

Obviously you have never watched any of this guy's videos, he is a firm supporter of climate change science. What he is disputing is the BS car companies put out, in terms of their products magically becoming environmentally sustainable, when they are hybrids and full EV's.

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Actually I did watch one where he predicted the imminent demise of Tesla. From what I understand, he's done a lot of those.

[transam]

  On 7/1/2022 at 2:20 AM, KhunLA said:

As a matter of fact ...

"The power behind MG’s battery technology

08-12-2020

The MG ZS EV and MG EHS Plug-in Hybrid benefit from highly advanced battery technology with an impressive level of safety and durability. That’s because MG’s parent company – SAIC Motor – is one of the most experienced EV manufacturers in the world, which also partners with China’s largest lithium-ion battery manufacturer CATL."

https://news.mgmotor.eu/the-power-behind-mg-battery-technology/

 

"CATL

Chinese battery giant CATL (300750.SZ) is currently the sole supplier of LFP batteries to Tesla, which has been installing such batteries in cars manufactured in the Shanghai plant since 2020.Jun 7, 2565 BE"

 

"Batteries are the heart of all EVs and one of Tesla’s key battery suppliers, CATL, has remained on top in the battery race."

https://thedriven.io/2022/05/06/teslas-key-battery-supplier/

 

Tesla will also be using BYD's batteries in the future, according to a new-blip from BYD.

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I asked, do MG's have the same batteries as Tesla, not about battery manufacturing....?

 

Does your MG have a battery heat control system...?