Pence leads Republicans calling for national abortion ban post Roe v. Wade ruling: ‘We must not rest’

[GarryP]

1 hour ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

To save my unborn childs life , if it meant myself keeping the unborn child  in my stomach for a few months , I would do that .

   Would you do that for your unborn  Child or would you let them die ?

No way Jose. My late wife had one abortion and I was fine with that. A number of years later my wife was pregnant again and our daughter was born with severe disabilities and died at 10 years old. We did the best we could for her but she had an absolutely awful life because of her condition. Had we known early enough prior to her birth, I am pretty sure my wife would have had another abortion too. It would have been her choice, not mine. 

Edited June 28, 2022 by GarryP

[coolcarer]

3 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

The abortions are not carried out on medical advice , as you suggested .

Yes they are and a link was already provided to prove that. All abortions which happens to be just 1% in that time frame 21 weeks up which is what you were referring to, are provided because of medical reasons

 

https://www.kff.org/womens-health-policy/fact-sheet/abortions-later-in-pregnancy/

Edited June 28, 2022 by coolcarer

[zzaa09]

Good Christians.

[San Fran Dan]

Religious Right is Destroying USA 

[San Fran Dan]

37 minutes ago, zzaa09 said:

Good Christians.

Treat everyone with disrespect and on Sunday Forgiveness <deleted> 

[Chomper Higgot]

4 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

You dont seem to be aware what an "elective abortion" is :

 

 

"An abortion is referred to as an elective or voluntary abortion when it is performed at the request of the woman for non-medical reasons."

 

   The figures and graphs I provided state "elective abortion"  which means not at the advice of a medical person but voluntarily  elected by the woman .

 

  

You have yet to provide evidence of late term abortions carried out without medical advice.

[Wrwest]

11 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Can we just talk about normal relationships and pregnancies , rather than abnormal relationships like rape and incest ?

Reality inconvenient to an absolutist stance? Deal with the complexities, they are dictating public policy for all contingencies. Yes, rape, incest, medical complications, amniotic testing, chorionic village sampling …

[Mac Mickmanus]

47 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

You have yet to provide evidence of late term abortions carried out without medical advice.

I have given the laws and states where its legal to carry out abortions at that stage .Could you stop trying to turn this into a back and forth squabble , I have no other into that I can keep giving to you 

[Mac Mickmanus]

29 minutes ago, Wrwest said:

Reality inconvenient to an absolutist stance? Deal with the complexities, they are dictating public policy for all contingencies. Yes, rape, incest, medical complications, amniotic testing, chorionic village sampling …

Can you provide some evidence to show that abortions  are completely banned , even when there's a medical complication ?

[Scott]

5 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Can you provide some evidence to show that abortions  are completely banned , even when there's a medical complication ?

Oklahoma has a total ban on abortion for one example.

 

https://www.guttmacher.org/state-policy/explore/state-policies-later-abortions

[Chomper Higgot]

1 hour ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

I have given the laws and states where its legal to carry out abortions at that stage .Could you stop trying to turn this into a back and forth squabble , I have no other into that I can keep giving to you 

But you have not provided evidence of late term abortions being conducted without medical advice.

 

So let’s leave it at that.

[Mac Mickmanus]

The BBC has reported that all States will still allow abortion on medical grounds (if the Mothers life is in danger) 

 

 

"All states allow abortion to save the life of the mother, while some will also allow exceptions to their ban for cases of rape or incest."

 

 

 

 

OklahomaExceptions: to save the life of the mother

A trigger law that passed in 2021 has gone into effect, banning abortion at any stage of pregnancy. There are no exceptions for rape or incest. There is an exception to protect the life of the mother. Providing an abortion otherwise would be punishable with prison time.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-61804777

18 hours ago

 

[Chomper Higgot]

One the primary and oft repeated ‘justifications’ offered by supporters of the SCOTUS ruling on abortion was that the SCOTUS was placing responsibility to make abortion laws with the individual States and that it should not be a matter decided at Federal level.

 

And yet now we Pence and Republicans calling for a national abortion ban.

 

Silence from those who only yesterday were arguing this must be a matter for individual States.

[robblok]

14 hours ago, Thingamabob said:

Not just a clump of cells. You are misinformed.

I am not misinformed; besides, I talk about early abortion that is when about 2/3s happen. 

 

Christians and other moralists are uninformed thinking they can decide for others. How about you decide for yourself and others decide for them. This does not concern you. You force your family and friend and follow your stupid code. Others will do the same for theirs.

[Bkk Brian]

11 hours ago, Wrwest said:

Reality inconvenient to an absolutist stance? Deal with the complexities, they are dictating public policy for all contingencies. Yes, rape, incest, medical complications, amniotic testing, chorionic village sampling …

Correct, thanks to the linked article from the BBC provided earlier, its clear that no thought to the wider issues of medical advice abortions or the wishes of parents has been taken into account by the majority of states who are imposing a ban or already have one in place with the exception of medical advice to save the life of the mother.

 

What about the severe disabilities that can be detected such as anencephaly, being just one example, half of the babies born with anencephaly will not survive birth and the other half die within hours or days. Imagine a mother having to carry that for months knowing it will die and worse what if it was an accidental pregnancy in the first place. Only 4 states, Alabama, Georgia, Iowa and South Carolina have made an exception to this.

 

Then of course the rapes and incest. only Mississippi, Utah, Wyoming, Georgia, Iowa and South Carolina will consider this with restrictions for authenticating the rape.

 

As mentioned many times, this will affect the poor more than any another other demographic. 49% being below the poverty level.

 

 

[JCauto]

On 6/28/2022 at 9:57 AM, Mac Mickmanus said:

Can we just talk about normal relationships and pregnancies , rather than abnormal relationships like rape and incest ?

No, because when you make laws, they apply to everyone UNLESS those exceptions are made. And the laws that are being passed by the anti-abortion states allow for no exceptions. 

There's quite a simple way for you to understand this. Imagine yourself as a woman, and consider that situation where some guy is insisting that you have to do something with your body, or even that you're being forced to maintain a pregnancy for 8 months or so with no options, and that you cannot make any medical decisions without that person, whether their rapist or abuser or relative, having an equal say in the matter. You okay with that?

[JCauto]

18 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

It doesnt really make much difference , you are still depriving a living being of a life , whether you do that after 9 weeks , 20 weeks or 30 weeks, doesn't really make much difference . To are just ending that life a few weeks earlier

There was a great analogy I read the other day that clarifies things in this endless and fruitless debate. It's a variation on the "Trolley Problem".

 

You're in a house that has caught on fire. The house is a Center for Reproductive Health. You wake up in a panic and rush to get out. On your way out, you quickly open a door because you hear someone screaming in terror and inside there are two chairs. One has a child of 1 year old on it. The other has a big container with 1,000 in-vitro fertilization eggs that have already been impregnated with sperm and the cooling systems to maintain them. You can only carry one and what is left will burn. What do you do?

[JCauto]

17 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

You dont seem to be aware what an "elective abortion" is :

 

 

"An abortion is referred to as an elective or voluntary abortion when it is performed at the request of the woman for non-medical reasons."

 

   The figures and graphs I provided state "elective abortion"  which means not at the advice of a medical person but voluntarily  elected by the woman .

 

  

You're not the sharpest tool in the shed. Yes, an elective surgery is one where it is performed at the request of the patient rather than required according to the medical necessity of their condition. However, this does not mean that a woman in this case goes "I want to abort my baby at 27 weeks" and the doctors go "well, she said she wanted to do it, so let's scrub up and get to it!" Are you really that ignorant of medicine and medical practice? Have you never been to a hospital?

And while I don't have nor am I willing to do the research into how your maps or graphs were created, in a situation where the doctors examined this woman and discovered that her foetus would almost certainly have birth defects or other issues, or that the pregnancy was unlikely to reach term, or any host of other reasons, then she would have a choice to make. If she chose to abort, then that would be "elective", but does that describe this woman's situation in detail? It lumps her in with someone who discovers they are pregnant at 4 weeks and does a simple abortion.  

You clearly have little understanding of the realities of modern medicine and the situations of women, whom I will note don't rate a mention in your considerations. It's all about YOUR unborn baby's life. Women are not your vessels or property.

[JCauto]

2 hours ago, JCauto said:

There was a great analogy I read the other day that clarifies things in this endless and fruitless debate. It's a variation on the "Trolley Problem".

 

You're in a house that has caught on fire. The house is a Center for Reproductive Health. You wake up in a panic and rush to get out. On your way out, you quickly open a door because you hear someone screaming in terror and inside there are two chairs. One has a child of 1 year old on it. The other has a big container with 1,000 in-vitro fertilization eggs that have already been impregnated with sperm and the cooling systems to maintain them. You can only carry one and what is left will burn. What do you do?

By the way, the person who wrote the original analogy observed that when he would post this on fora, he practically NEVER gets a response because everyone knows what the answer is including the so-called "right-to-lifers", hence they simply won't answer. Prove us wrong Mac!

[Chomper Higgot]

2 hours ago, JCauto said:

No, because when you make laws, they apply to everyone UNLESS those exceptions are made. And the laws that are being passed by the anti-abortion states allow for no exceptions. 

There's quite a simple way for you to understand this. Imagine yourself as a woman, and consider that situation where some guy is insisting that you have to do something with your body, or even that you're being forced to maintain a pregnancy for 8 months or so with no options, and that you cannot make any medical decisions without that person, whether their rapist or abuser or relative, having an equal say in the matter. You okay with that?

Imagining the plight of others, while seemingly a simple matter, comes with one of two predisposed thoughts, ‘empathy’ or ‘vindictive cruelty’

 

There are a number of examples through this thread.

 

 

 

 

[Mac Mickmanus]

11 hours ago, robblok said:

I am not misinformed; besides, I talk about early abortion that is when about 2/3s happen. 

 

Christians and other moralists are uninformed thinking they can decide for others. How about you decide for yourself and others decide for them. This does not concern you. You force your family and friend and follow your stupid code. Others will do the same for theirs.

I think that the unborn baby should be the one to make the choice .

Here is a 15 weeks old "no brain and a clump of cells " and who should decide whether a unborn Child of a similar age should either have a life or not ?

 

 http://stillbirthday.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/aemon.jpg

 

 

 

[GarryP]

32 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

I think that the unborn baby should be the one to make the choice .

Here is a 15 weeks old "no brain and a clump of cells " and who should decide whether a unborn Child of a similar age should either have a life or not ?

 

 http://stillbirthday.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/aemon.jpg

 

 

 

That is batsh!t crazy. How is the unborn baby able to make the choice? Is there an app for that? 

Edited June 29, 2022 by GarryP

[Mac Mickmanus]

9 minutes ago, GarryP said:

That is batsh!t crazy. How is the unborn baby able to make the choice? Is there an app for that? 

You would have to wait until the Child is born and then reaches an age when they can make that choice .

  Ask the Child when they reach 18 years old, whether they want to either live or die 

[Bkk Brian]

52 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

I think that the unborn baby should be the one to make the choice .

Here is a 15 weeks old "no brain and a clump of cells " and who should decide whether a unborn Child of a similar age should either have a life or not ?

 

 http://stillbirthday.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/aemon.jpg

 

 

 

This is nothing to do with the post your responding to,  "I talk about early abortion that is when about 2/3s happen"

 

The majority of abortions are within 9 weeks. Got it now!

 

For clarity once again:

9 out of 10 abortions are carried out within 12 weeks not the same as the link to your image shows. In addition, two thirds of those were carried out before 9 weeks.

 

Do you deliberately get a kick out of posting images or links of unborn babies and fetus's? 

Edited June 29, 2022 by Bkk Brian

[GarryP]

11 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

You would have to wait until the Child is born and then reaches an age when they can make that choice .

  Ask the Child when they reach 18 years old, whether they want to either live or die 

So you are forcing a woman to have a child she does not want. Are you going to look after all those unwanted children? Birth control methods don't always work, so why not force all men to have reversible vasectomies so women would not get pregnant? Men are equally responsible for conception so if you punish a woman for getting pregnant by forcing her to have a child, you must also force a punishment on the man. What would that punishment be? Put him in solitary confinement for 9 months? Castration? Come on, you have got to be fair.          

[Mac Mickmanus]

15 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

This is nothing to do with the post your responding to,  "I talk about early abortion that is when about 2/3s happen"

 

The majority of abortions are within 9 weeks. Got it now!

 

For clarity once again:

9 out of 10 abortions are carried out within 12 weeks not the same as the link to your image shows. In addition, two thirds of those were carried out before 9 weeks.

 

Do you deliberately get a kick out of posting images or links of unborn babies and fetus's? 

Well yeas a 12 week old unborn Child looks slightly different , my point was that they still have human features and aren't just cells . Here is a 12 week old premature born baby , the usual age for abortions 

 

[Bkk Brian]

2 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Well yeas a 12 week old unborn Child looks slightly different , my point was that they still have human features and aren't just cells . Here is a 12 week old premature born baby , the usual age for abortions 

 

Confirmed you get a kick out of inappropriate images that has nothing to do with the OP and ignore the post content you respond to

[Mac Mickmanus]

4 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Confirmed you get a kick out of inappropriate images that has nothing to do with the OP and ignore the post content you respond to

I replied to your post in which you stated the regular age of abortions is 12 weeks old and you seemed to be agreeing with roblocks previous post that they were just "no brains and clumps of cells" at that age .

   I posted the relevant photo to show that theres a bit more to them than a clump of cells  

[Bkk Brian]

9 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

I replied to your post in which you stated the regular age of abortions is 12 weeks old and you seemed to be agreeing with roblocks previous post that they were just "no brains and clumps of cells" at that age .

   I posted the relevant photo to show that theres a bit more to them than a clump of cells  

I did not say that though did I. "The majority of abortions are within 9 weeks and under" and I was clearly referring you to roblocks post which said:

 

13 hours ago, robblok said:

I am not misinformed; besides, I talk about early abortion that is when about 2/3s happen. 

Until you at the least acknowledge when you are wrong and move on then all you do is deflection, post an image, pathetic. Man up a little and get some credibility

Edited June 29, 2022 by Bkk Brian

[Mac Mickmanus]

18 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

I did not say that though did I. "The majority of abortions are within 9 weeks and under" and I was clearly referring you to roblocks post which said:

 

Until you at the least acknowledge when you are wrong and move on then all you do is deflection, post an image, pathetic. Man up a little and get some credibility

It really doesn't matter when the majority of abortions are carried out , there isnt much different to the end result , whether the procedure would be carried out today or in one months time .

   If an unborn child was aborted at 9/12/15/20/35 weeks , the end result is still the same . That unborn childs life would end before it was born , whether that unborn childs life would end after a certain amount of weeks is irrelevant