Is this normal in Thailand?

[Brian Nose]

I got the job, they sent me the contract but said it will be signed when I get there.

 

Sort of feels like they'll keep looking for another teacher - sort of feels I should keep looking for another job..

[foreverlomsak]

In my experience, not unusual, I've worked for 4 schools in Thailand (1 via agent), and it always took 6/8 weeks to see a contract, let alone get a work permit. Only with one school did I need to leave the country to get a B-Visa, the others I was on a "married extension of stay".

Things have tightened up a little since my time.

 

[Brian Nose]

14 minutes ago, foreverlomsak said:

In my experience, not unusual, I've worked for 4 schools in Thailand (1 via agent), and it always took 6/8 weeks to see a contract, let alone get a work permit. Only with one school did I need to leave the country to get a B-Visa, the others I was on a "married extension of stay".

Things have tightened up a little since my time.

 

They have sent me the contract, it's just not signed by them. They want me out in 6 weeks. I sent them all my documents, they said they'll get back to me in a couple of weeks. With flights and more info.

 

Idk. No contract, no job in my mind. It doesn't feel secure. But if this is just a Thai thing..

[OneMoreFarang]

1 hour ago, Brian Nose said:

I got the job, they sent me the contract but said it will be signed when I get there.

 

Sort of feels like they'll keep looking for another teacher - sort of feels I should keep looking for another job..

No, you didn't get the job. You have a promise to get a job. And promises can be broken.

 

That reminds me of my last bargirl. She told me: I love you too much.

But she didn't mention if she will continue that love after the night is over.

Same same, not so different. 

[Brian Nose]

3 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

No, you didn't get the job. You have a promise to get a job. And promises can be broken.

Is it normal to do this? The fact they say "give you the flight details in 2 weeks" is a bit strange. Why not now? The longer you wait the higher the flight price. 

 

Seems like they're trying to see if they can get someone in country to me.

[OneMoreFarang]

1 minute ago, Brian Nose said:

Is it normal to do this? The fact they say "give you the flight details in 2 weeks" is a bit strange. Why not now? The longer you wait the higher the flight price. 

 

Seems like they're trying to see if they can get someone in country to me.

You have your answer already.

What is the purpose of asking again and again?

You don't have a job until you have a signed document. And even if you have a signed document that still doesn't mean you have a work permit. And it also doesn't mean you will get paid.

If you want to make sure then make sure you get a signed contract.

[Brian Nose]

5 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

You have your answer already.

What is the purpose of asking again and again?

You don't have a job until you have a signed document. And even if you have a signed document that still doesn't mean you have a work permit. And it also doesn't mean you will get paid.

If you want to make sure then make sure you 

Lol. No. You keep answering the question "do I have a job?"

 

17 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

No, you didn't get the job. 

I never asked if I got the job or not. I asked:

 

12 minutes ago, Brian Nose said:

Is it normal to do this? 

If I get to Thailand, DM me and we'll talk about reading compression lessons. 

[86Tiger]

1 hour ago, Brian Nose said:

 

 

........ It doesn't feel secure........

This is about as secure as it is going to get until you get a pay check.  Signed or not signed.

 

Maybe a job in Thailand is not for you.....

[Brian Nose]

10 minutes ago, 86Tiger said:

This is about as secure as it is going to get

Thank you. Just checking to see if this was normal.  ????????

[KIngsofisaan]

You have asked all the right questions and you have a good reason to be uncomfortable.

 

Making a move to Thailand under these shaky circumstances is not recommended.

 

No signed contract means nothing legally binding.

 

If they are footing the bill to bring you here, you might be right, they might be looking for a local?

 

It is certaintly not like the first world, where you do get a signed contract and a guarantee. Protect yourself at ALL costs.

 

I would wonder which school and if they can afford and make a practice of bringing in teachers from overseas or not?

 

If not, watch out.

 

IF you really want to live in Thailand and can afford to make the move and survive until you have a job, you can probably find a teaching job somewhere.

 

Would not recommend with limiting funding though.

 

 

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

I think i heard that it was not uncommon for an employer to require employment contracts to be signed by the employee when the employee was physically in the employer's country in order to avoid the possibility that the contract might come under the jurisdiction of the courts of the employee's home country in the event of a dispute. Not sure if this is actually the case, however.

[connda]

2 hours ago, foreverlomsak said:

In my experience, not unusual, I've worked for 4 schools in Thailand (1 via agent), and it always took 6/8 weeks to see a contract, let alone get a work permit. Only with one school did I need to leave the country to get a B-Visa, the others I was on a "married extension of stay".

Things have tightened up a little since my time.

 

Then they want you to work without a work permit on probation.

By the way - that can get you thrown in jail and kicked out of the country.
But your employer -  hand slap and maybe a small fine. 
You're the one who gets screwed.  Big time.

It's a seller's market right now.  Thailand is short of teachers.  So, leverage your skills and experience.  They are the one's who need to fill quotas.  Make them dance to your tune.  If they won't?

Walk away.  You're skill set are only appreciated by a few and those few are usually private schools run by other farangs.  To Thais you're educational skills are at best bird-droppings.  As you are judged by people who don't have a pittance of your own ability. 

I taught here three years.  Thais don't appreciate you.  I'd never do it again. 
Under the right circumstances I'd work for a school run by a farang staff.

[FritsSikkink]

1 hour ago, Brian Nose said:

Lol. No. You keep answering the question "do I have a job?"

 

I never asked if I got the job or not. I asked:

 

If I get to Thailand, DM me and we'll talk about reading compression lessons. 

You said you had the job, but you haven't yet. That needs a signed contract. Common sense will say, if they can't be bothered to send you a signed contract and don't have a signed commitment from you, why would they buy a ticket. 

Edited July 19, 2022 by FritsSikkink

[86Tiger]

21 minutes ago, KIngsofisaan said:

 

 

"......No signed contract means nothing legally binding....."

 

 

 

 

A signed contract means nothing, you can always be released for any or no reason.

 

Only thing would offer any sense of security to me would be if they are paying for the flight and cash up front for the relocation.  At least that shows a commitment.

 

But otherwise sound advice:  never relocate to anywhere, Thailand included, on a promise with no way to support yourself if things go wrong.

[1FinickyOne]

3 hours ago, Brian Nose said:

No contract, no job in my mind. It doesn't feel secure.

ps - this works 2 ways and I bet it worked against them more often - people signing a contract and then changing their mind and not coming to Thailand... 

[Brian Nose]

1 hour ago, 86Tiger said:

Only thing would offer any sense of security to me would be if they are paying for the flight and cash up front for the relocation.  At least that shows a commitment 

They want me to get a work visa and then they fly me out. The Thai embassy is literally a 20 minute train away for me but they don't seem to be in a hurry despite September start.

[CrunchWrapSupreme]

Come to Thailand on a tourist visa, enjoy a little vacation. Be sure to have a decent nest egg of savings to fall back on. During this you can do your school shopping. Don't expect to have the school and contract squared away before you get on the plane. It's not like JP Morgan Chase is flying you out here, with a fat expat pkg and limo to meet you at the airport.

 

You've got 30 days visa on entry, extendable to another 30, or you can get 60 if you do a visa at a consulate, plus 30 for a total of 90. There's your time limit. Me and countless others have made it work. Line up some interviews, visit the schools. Get a feel for them. You'll know if it's a decent school based on how they receive you. If you get a bad attitude it's going to be a rough year. IHMO, go out to the provinces where there's less farangs and they're more appreciated. In and around BKK you're going to get more grief.

 

Ask how soon you can get your visa and work permit. Ask if they've done this before, some schools haven't. Try to avoid agencies, deal directly with the school, though you might have to take an agency as a last resort. Ask for a one year contract and visa. 30k is old news, insist on 40k. Sell yourself with any experience, if you don't have any, mention volunteer work, any work with kids, babysitting, religious activities, projects you did in university. Try having some pics of this, prepare a portfolio. Agree with the other posts, people still aren't coming into Thailand given Covid still hasn't really ended, so it's still a seller's market for teachers. Leverage yourself, be confident. Cheers.

[Scott]

Numerous off-topic posts and replies have been removed.  Stay on topic and please treat people posting in a respectful manner.

 

My job entailed hiring a lot of teachers for several schools.  I would never send a contract to a potential employee unless I, and the Thai admin, were certain.  If I wanted to string you along it would be done verbally only.  

 

We did not arrange or pay for flights.  It was your responsibility and the school would reimburse a portion of the cost of coming to Thailand. 

 

It appears that your school knows what they are doing and how to do it.  Teachers are hard to get. 

 

Best of luck and keep us posted.  

[OneMoreFarang]

13 hours ago, Scott said:

It appears that your school knows what they are doing and how to do it. 

Just out of interest for my/our understanding: If they want to hire him why don't they send him a signed contract? A contract which is not signed is meaningless - at least legally and in my understanding. 

[Scott]

28 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

Just out of interest for my/our understanding: If they want to hire him why don't they send him a signed contract? A contract which is not signed is meaningless - at least legally and in my understanding. 

I think there are a number of legal issues with doing that.  I know the owner/director I worked with always had the actual contract signed in the office.  We would prepare and sign a letter that the person will be employed by the school.  That letter was used to get the necessary visa.  The big issue wasn't the signature so much as the official school stamp.  

[youreavinalaff]

20 hours ago, connda said:

Then they want you to work without a work permit on probation.

By the way - that can get you thrown in jail and kicked out of the country.
But your employer -  hand slap and maybe a small fine. 
You're the one who gets screwed.  Big time.

It's a seller's market right now.  Thailand is short of teachers.  So, leverage your skills and experience.  They are the one's who need to fill quotas.  Make them dance to your tune.  If they won't?

Walk away.  You're skill set are only appreciated by a few and those few are usually private schools run by other farangs.  To Thais you're educational skills are at best bird-droppings.  As you are judged by people who don't have a pittance of your own ability. 

I taught here three years.  Thais don't appreciate you.  I'd never do it again. 
Under the right circumstances I'd work for a school run by a farang staff.

I was going too disect your post and quote parts where you were wide of the mark and generalising from limited experience.

 

I couldn't work our where to draw the line so quote the whole thing. 

[BonMot]

They sent you the contact because they are so desperate and unable to hire on the ground.

 

Yes, of course it's normal. I would imagine that you would feel extremely comfy knowing that the contract is signed. Nevertheless, the school has probably seen dozens of teachers sign the contract and still do runners.

 

They don't need some crazy farang with a signed contract never showing up. Why can't you see their position?

[Scott]

13 minutes ago, BonMot said:

They sent you the contact because they are so desperate and unable to hire on the ground.

 

Yes, of course it's normal. I would imagine that you would feel extremely comfy knowing that the contract is signed. Nevertheless, the school has probably seen dozens of teachers sign the contract and still do runners.

 

They don't need some crazy farang with a signed contract never showing up. Why can't you see their position?

If you are contracted and receive the visa from one school, you are not able to use that at another school. 

 

In many years of hiring people, including those from overseas, there was only once that a signed contract was needed to get the visa.  I don't remember the Embassy, but our visa person actually called and they wanted it signed, so the applicant signed, sent it to us and it was signed by the director (and stamped --that's the big one) and a faxed copy sent to the Embassy and the original sent to the applicant to show them when he picked up his passport. 

 

It was a long, cumbersome process. 

[BonMot]

11 hours ago, Scott said:

If you are contracted and receive the visa from one school, you are not able to use that at another school. 

 

In many years of hiring people, including those from overseas, there was only once that a signed contract was needed to get the visa.  I don't remember the Embassy, but our visa person actually called and they wanted it signed, so the applicant signed, sent it to us and it was signed by the director (and stamped --that's the big one) and a faxed copy sent to the Embassy and the original sent to the applicant to show them when he picked up his passport. 

 

It was a long, cumbersome process. 

Understood.

 

I was looking at it from an additional angle. The vast majority of schools will want to you to pick up your contract in person for various reasons. If doing a visa abroad it's usually regional countries.

 

If teaching at a proper international school and if op is properly credentialed then I would say yes - he should be provided a signed contract.

 

Experience with EFL I think most schools want you to front up despite*considering* applicants from abroad.

 

I would go on to state that a person abroad should never take a job and or contract from an agency while abroad. These agencies are very desperate. You can always do better in country. Thailand is not Japan or Korea. 150k THB will give anyone a nice cushion to find a better job rather than taking anything. That will chart the course forward.

 

BTW if anyone foolish enough to work for an agency and gets sent to neighboring countries for visa this usually is a scam.

 

First, they will send you out with bad paperwork knowingly. The embassy will reject the paperwork and you will be forced at your own expense to have stayed in the other country and then return. The agency or even school will then say oh why don't you work a bit while we get the paperwork in order... Did then send you back out rinse and repeat until you wise up.

 

Usually it's Penang. I've met bunches of poor saps in this predicament.

Edited July 29, 2022 by BonMot

[puchooay]

8 hours ago, BonMot said:

BTW if anyone foolish enough to work for an agency and gets sent to neighboring countries for visa this usually is a scam.

 

First, they will send you out with bad paperwork knowingly. The embassy will reject the paperwork and you will be forced at your own expense to have stayed in the other country and then return. The agency or even school will then say oh why don't you work a bit while we get the paperwork in order... Did then send you back out rinse and repeat until you wise up.

 

Usually it's Penang. I've met bunches of poor saps in this predicament.

Wrong on so many points.

[Iamfalang]

You are on here posting, so your gut feeling is bad.  I would find another school.  Your instinct is probably 100% correct.  Maybe it's not only the contract.........

 

One school sent me a contract, we both signed, they send me texts explaining how the contract is changing.   Start and end dates changing.  I asked, Can you please send me a new contract?  NO!!!   

 

Of course I never went to that school.................I knew that without a work permit that this contract was meaningless anyhow.   

 

In my case, I was interested.  The moment I got the first text to change, well, I knew I was never going there.   

 

Like a relationship, if it starts out rocky..........impossible.

 

Start over with another school.   

Edited August 1, 2022 by Iamfalang

[youreavinalaff]

5 hours ago, Iamfalang said:

Of course I never went to that school.................I knew that without a work permit that this contract was meaningless anyhow.   

Please explain?

[johnnybangkok]

You are getting some REALLY bad advice here so let me set a few things straight for you.

 

An employment contract is only valid once you actually start employment so legally, it doesn't matter if it's signed beforehand or on your first date of employment. You cannot be held to a contract (and you can't hold them to a contract) if you aren't working for them. The ONLY time you need a signed contract before you commence work is if you are getting your work-permit via a non-immigrant O visa issued in another country (which is the norm for most jobs as you cannot be issued this visa in Thailand) but since teachers get a non-immigrant B visa, they can apply once in Thailand with the following criteria:- 

https://hochiminh.thaiembassy.org/en/publicservice/non-immigrant-b-teaching-in-thailand? page=5d80ab3315e39c2fe800a7ab&menu=5d80ab3315e39c2fe800a7ac

 

In your subsequent post you did say 'They want me to get a work visa and then they fly me out' which I assume means at the Thai Embassy in your home country. This is impossible without a either a signed contract or 'Letter of acceptance from the employing institute or school in Thailand'. If I was you, I'd send them the list of requirements for a non-immigrant B visa, as stated in the link I have included here and ask them for all the things that only they can supply (Letter of acceptance from the employing institute or school in Thailand, Letter of approval from government authorities, School license/Business registration, school profile etc) and see what their response is. If they are not willing to provide this then they aren't serious as it's simply impossible to get a visa without this information and therefore their participation. 

 

It just might be very possible that they are hedging their bets as far as the contract is concerned or it just might be they have had a bad experience before and just want to make sure you show up before they go ahead with all the other things required (including a signed contract) but by virtue of them asking you to get the visa in advance, it then puts the onus on them to get you everything you need for a successful application (to include a signed contract).

 

Best of luck.

 

 

 

 

 

[ChaiyaTH]

Like having a contract in Thailand is worth anything, that is just between your ears. Even it is signed, and even you started already, they still fire you whenever they please.

Edited August 2, 2022 by ChaiyaTH

[johnnybangkok]

1 hour ago, ChaiyaTH said:

Like having a contract in Thailand is worth anything, that is just between your ears. Even it is signed, and even you started already, they still fire you whenever they please.

Not true; employment contracts are very important in Thailand. 

Obviously anyone can get fired at any time at any job in any country but Thai employment law is very strict about the notice period money you should be getting paid and is VERY employee biased. You also have a robust system for unfair dismisal and the likes. This is why it's important to get the contract (with agreed notice periods) agreed in advance. If done properly it WILL hold up in an employment tribunial.