By raft and on foot, migrants cross Rio Grande from Mexico to Texas

Hanaguma · July 25, 2022

9 minutes ago, heybruce said:

And it's impossible to defend the Republican's strategy of demonizing illegal immigrants while playing nice with the businesses that hire them.

So neither party is serious about the problem. Once again, why are you making it an issue about political parties?

Bruce, I think we can agree on that. Both parties use the issue to play to their base- the GOP to the Chamber of Commerce, the Democrats to the Woke Left.

So- punishment to those who hire illegals is a great idea. Problem is that the US doesnt have a decent ID system to help them differentiate between legal and illegal residents. Illegals can get SS numbers (often forged or illegally obtained), drivers licences, etc. It is hard to verify, and quite often employers look the other way.

Also, close the border. Anyone who does not come across at an official crossing is immediately and permanently ineligible to enter the US. Process visas and asylum claims at consulates and embassies in foreign countries, not in the US.

Once things are stabilized and there arent 100,000 plus people crossing every month, work on establishing visa and guest worker programs tailored to specific sectors of the economy.

Sound good?

heybruce · July 25, 2022

34 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

Bruce, I think we can agree on that. Both parties use the issue to play to their base- the GOP to the Chamber of Commerce, the Democrats to the Woke Left.

So- punishment to those who hire illegals is a great idea. Problem is that the US doesnt have a decent ID system to help them differentiate between legal and illegal residents. Illegals can get SS numbers (often forged or illegally obtained), drivers licences, etc. It is hard to verify, and quite often employers look the other way.

Also, close the border. Anyone who does not come across at an official crossing is immediately and permanently ineligible to enter the US. Process visas and asylum claims at consulates and embassies in foreign countries, not in the US.

Once things are stabilized and there arent 100,000 plus people crossing every month, work on establishing visa and guest worker programs tailored to specific sectors of the economy.

Sound good?

As I've already explained, closing the border is impractical. Stiff penalties for businesses that hire illegal immigrants is not.

Hanaguma · July 25, 2022

6 minutes ago, heybruce said:

As I've already explained, closing the border is impractical. Stiff penalties for businesses that hire illegal immigrants is not.

Best estimates say up to $20 billion for the wall. In other words, about half of what Biden is pissing away to the Ukraine. There don't need to be guards every 10 feet. Minefields, armed drones and natural barriers will do. Back it up with immediate removal from the country, plus automatic ineligibility to ever enter again, and you have a good plan.

LarrySR · July 25, 2022

According to Social Security Administration, undocumented workers contribute $13billion per year into the fund since they use fake SS numbers on the job application.

heybruce · July 25, 2022

39 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

Best estimates say up to $20 billion for the wall. In other words, about half of what Biden is pissing away to the Ukraine. There don't need to be guards every 10 feet. Minefields, armed drones and natural barriers will do. Back it up with immediate removal from the country, plus automatic ineligibility to ever enter again, and you have a good plan.

Minefields and armed drones patrolling the border? Seriously?

What have you got against aggressively enforcing existing laws against hiring illegal immigrants, perhaps supplemented with a few new laws, using existing resources?

Eric Loh · July 25, 2022

54 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

Best estimates say up to $20 billion for the wall. In other words, about half of what Biden is pissing away to the Ukraine. There don't need to be guards every 10 feet. Minefields, armed drones and natural barriers will do. Back it up with immediate removal from the country, plus automatic ineligibility to ever enter again, and you have a good plan.

You forgotten some of Trump's best ideas like shoot migrant's legs and building alligator moat. Fools seldom differ on ridiculous ideas.

proton · July 25, 2022

when did illegal immigrants become 'migrants' ?

Eric Loh · July 25, 2022

11 minutes ago, proton said:

when did illegal immigrants become 'migrants' ?

They are treated the same. Abbott cleared state authorities to return them after apprehended to the border. Not at all clear how the state law enforcement differentiate type of migrants.

placeholder · July 25, 2022

1 hour ago, Hanaguma said:

Best estimates say up to $20 billion for the wall. In other words, about half of what Biden is pissing away to the Ukraine. There don't need to be guards every 10 feet. Minefields, armed drones and natural barriers will do. Back it up with immediate removal from the country, plus automatic ineligibility to ever enter again, and you have a good plan.

Thank you for the environmental disaster. Just what the Southwest needs.

Chris.B · July 25, 2022

On 7/20/2022 at 4:18 PM, Chomper Higgot said:

Undocumented immigrants have along history of contributing to the economy of California and it is California that will pay for this.

You mean the tax payers of California.

Bkk Brian · July 25, 2022

7 minutes ago, Chris.B said:

You mean the tax payers of California.

"undocumented workers play a key role in California’s economy, contributing an estimated $3.7 billion in annual state and local tax revenues."

KanchanaburiGuy · July 25, 2022

For decades, illegal immigration has been a serious political issue. Republicans talk about it; Democrats talk about it. There are laws being broken and laws being ignored.

Businesses make profits they are not supposed to, and then don't pay the correct taxes on their profits and their payroll. Job seekers who follow the law.......... get aced-out of jobs by cheaper workers who are willing to break the law.

Meanwhile, when Republicans have control of Congress and/or the Presidency, nothing gets done. When Democrats have control of Congress and/or the Presidency, nothing gets done. (Probably the biggest thing attempted in the last 50 years was the Reagan-era(?) amnesty program for illegals who were already here. But that wasn't a solution; that was capitulation! And that, besides being a horrible failure, sent the future a terrible message: "Go ahead and break in. We'll forgive you!" [Remember: "If you reward bad behavior, you're destined to get more of it!"] And thus, here we are!)

But why is all that?

Why do Republicans talk about it and then do nothing? Why do Democrats talk about it, and then do nothing?

Why is it that once they get elected, the only thing they seem to totally agree on......... is to NOT do anything meaningful to stem the tide of illegal immigration........... and to NOT do anything meaningful to expel the illegal aliens that are already here?

Why is that?

Well, turns out there IS a reason. Turns out there's a "Dirty Little Secret" kind of reason, but it's a reason, nonetheless!

Consider this:

Remember when Social Security was being called the "Third-Rail of American Politics?" When it was believed that anyone who talked about reforming, changing, and/or cutting-back on Social Security........... guaranteed they'd be ousted at the ballot box, or become a pariah in Congress if they did get elected? Remember that?

To the best of my recollection, that thinking started in earnest in the 70s............ and has been one of the "Golden Rules of Politics" ever since!

So............. What does Social Security have to do with the almost universal lack-of-effort toward creating meaningful Illegal-Immigrant/Illegal-Alien policies by both parties? Why does neither party seem interested in creating real "Kick-'em-Out and Keep-'em-Out" policies, despite all their talk about favoring them?

The answer is: Social Security!

Social Security? Really? How can that be?

Well, I guess everybody knows by now that Social Security was set up as a Ponzi Scheme: It only works when there is an expanding population contributing it.

Except, beginning in the 60s and 70s, people.stopped having 3 and 4 and 5 kids. We suddenly found ourselves facing near ZPG conditions [ZPG = Zero Population Growth!]

Yes, the population has kept expanding. But that's mostly because people stopped dying when they were expected to! And that ultimately ADDS to the burden that Social Security is under.......... rather than helping to alleviate it!

So again, what does this have to do with Illegal Immigration and Congress?

Well, the answer to that is the "Dirty Little Secret" that politicians will never talk about! It's this.......

Illegal Immigrants provide the "expanded population" that Social Security absolutely requires. The "expanded worker population" that our American birth-rate has failed to keep up with!

Remember: "Social Security---The Third-Rail of American Politics!"

What they won't say is.......... what's too risky to say is.......

If the government effectively shuts down the flow of people crossing the border............. and/or sufficiently expels the Illegal Alien population that is already here........ it will spell the death of Social Security as we know it!

(Try keeping this in mind as you ask yourself, "Why was the only serious attempt in the last 50 years merely an AMNESTY.......... keeping the people here!......... rather than actually attempting EXPULSION?" And........ "Why would the only serious attempt in the last 50 years..........also be the one thing that would almost guarantee an increase in the number of people who try to come here? Hmmm?)

--------------------

Truly meaningful and effective Immigration Reform.........

=means=

..........Grabbing "The Third-Rail of American Politics" with both hands!

-----------------

(Now, a lot of people will respond, "Illegal Aliens".......... or "Undocumented Workers," if you prefer........ don't pay into Social Security. But the fact is, the majority probably do............ either through the front door or the back door.

What's more, being Illegal........ even though they've paid INTO the system............ they will likely never be able to take anything OUT of it! This our cynical, cover-their-own-butts government would call a "win-win!")

Bottom Line:

Immigration......... whether legal or illegal......... solves a big part of the "expanding population" problem that is inherent in the Social Security Ponzi Scheme. It solves a problem that our American birth-rate has been incapable of solving since the 60s or 70s.

If screwing up Social Security........... or even having serious conversations about changing it........ can be a virtual death-sentence to a national politician............ why would they do anything to hinder this easy, automatic solution ..............a solution made possible by simply doing nothing?

Answer is........... they wouldn't!

And that's why Democrats and Republicans alike........... talk up a good game.......... but when the rubber hits the road, they wind up doing nothing!

Edited July 25, 2022 by KanchanaburiGuy

Chomper Higgot · July 25, 2022

3 hours ago, Hanaguma said:

Best estimates say up to $20 billion for the wall. In other words, about half of what Biden is pissing away to the Ukraine. There don't need to be guards every 10 feet. Minefields, armed drones and natural barriers will do. Back it up with immediate removal from the country, plus automatic ineligibility to ever enter again, and you have a good plan.

Penalties for businesses employing undocumented immigrants would not cost billions, would not require engaging in the folly of ‘barriers and walls’, would return an income in fines and penalties and would reduce demand for undocumented workers.

It would also remove the economic incentives to employ cheap undocumented workers rather than Americans and documented immigrants.

Edited July 25, 2022 by Chomper Higgot

placeholder · July 25, 2022

6 minutes ago, KanchanaburiGuy said:

For decades, illegal immigration has been a serious political issue. Republicans talk about it; Democrats talk about it. There are laws being broken and laws being ignored.

Businesses make profits they are not supposed to, and then don't pay the correct taxes on their profits and their payroll. Job seekers who follow the law.......... get aced-out of jobs by cheaper workers who are willing to break the law.

Meanwhile, when Republicans have control of Congress and/or the Presidency, nothing gets done. When Democrats have control of Congress and/or the Presidency, nothing gets done. (Probably the biggest thing attempted in the last 50 years was the Reagan-era(?) amnesty program for illegals who were already here. But that wasn't a solution; that was capitulation! And that, besides being a horrible failure, sent the future a terrible message: "Go ahead and break in. We'll forgive you!" [Remember: "If you reward bad behavior, you're destined to get more of it!"] And thus, here we are!)

But why is all that?

Why do Republicans talk about it and then do nothing? Why do Democrats talk about it, and then do nothing?

Why is it that once they get elected, the only thing they seem to totally agree on......... is to NOT do anything meaningful to stem the tide of illegal immigration........... and to NOT do anything meaningful to expel the illegal aliens that are already here?

Why is that?

Well, turns out there IS a reason. Turns out there's a "Dirty Little Secret" kind of reason, but it's a reason, nonetheless!

Consider this:

Remember when Social Security was being called the "Third-Rail of American Politics?" When it was believed that anyone who talked about reforming, changing, and/or cutting-back on Social Security........... guaranteed they'd be ousted at the ballot box, or become a pariah in Congress if they did get elected? Remember that?

To the best of my recollection, that thinking started in earnest in the 70s............ and has been one of the "Golden Rules of Politics" ever since!

So............. What does Social Security have to do with the almost universal lack-of-effort toward creating meaningful Illegal-Immigrant/Illegal-Alien policies by both parties? Why does neither party seem interested in creating real "Kick-'em-Out and Keep-'em-Out" policies, despite all their talk about favoring them?

The answer is: Social Security!

Social Security? Really? How can that be?

Well, I guess everybody knows by now that Social Security was set up as a Ponzi Scheme: It only works when there is an expanding population contributing it.

Except, beginning in the 60s and 70s, people.stopped having 3 and 4 and 5 kids. We suddenly found ourselves facing near ZPG conditions [ZPG = Zero Population Growth!]

Yes, the population has kept expanding. But that's mostly because people stopped dying when they were expected to! And that ultimately ADDS to the burden that Social Security is under.......... rather than helping to alleviate it!

So again, what does this have to do with Illegal Immigration and Congress?

Well, the answer to that is the "Dirty Little Secret" that politicians will never talk about! It's this.......

Illegal Immigrants provide the "expanded population" that Social Security absolutely requires. The "expanded worker population" that our American birth-rate has failed to keep up with!

Remember: "Social Security---The Third-Rail of American Politics!"

What they won't say is.......... what's too risky to say is.......

If the government effectively shuts down the flow of people crossing the border............. and/or sufficiently expels the Illegal Alien population that is already here........ it will spell the death of Social Security as we know it!

(Try keeping this in mind as you ask yourself, "Why was the only serious attempt in the last 50 years merely an AMNESTY.......... keeping the people here!......... rather than actually attempting EXPULSION?" And........ "Why would the only serious attempt in the last 50 years..........also be the one thing that would almost guarantee an increase in the number of people who try to come here? Hmmm?)

--------------------

Truly meaningful and effective Immigration Reform.........

=means=

..........Grabbing "The Third-Rail of American Politics" with both hands!

-----------------

(Now, a lot of people will respond, "Illegal Aliens".......... or "Undocumented Workers," if you prefer........ don't pay into Social Security. But the fact is, the majority probably do............ either through the front door or the back door.

What's more, being Illegal........ even though they've paid INTO the system............ they will likely never be able to take anything OUT of it! This our cynical, cover-their-own-butts government would call a "win-win!")

Bottom Line:

Immigration......... whether legal or illegal......... solves a big part of the "expanding population" problem that is inherent in the Social Security Ponzi Scheme. It solves a problem that our American birth-rate has been incapable of solving since the 60s or 70s.

If screwing up Social Security........... or even having serious conversations about changing it........ can be a virtual death-sentence to a national politician............ why would they to anything to hinder this easy, automatic solution that simply doing nothing instead presents?

Answer is........... they wouldn't!

And that's why Democrats and Republicans alike........... talk up a good game.......... but when the rubber hits the road, they wind up doing nothing!

For your argument to make sense, you would have to show that undocumented aliens' contributions are akl that's s standing between Social Security and failure. Got any actual figures to share with us?

And there is a simple solution to ensuring that Social Security will always be able to pay out the benefits that it owes: remove the income cap.

"Raising the tax cap could increase higher earners’ benefits as well, depending on how policymakers treated newly taxed earnings. Changes to the tax cap could close roughly a quarter to nearly nine-tenths of Social Security’s solvency gap, depending on how they were structured."

https://www.cbpp.org/research/social-security/increasing-payroll-taxes-would-strengthen-social-security#:~:text=Eliminating the cap would make,higher earners would pay more.

And if you dismantle payroll tax avoidance schemes such as subchapter S corporations, which are there to benefit the wealthiest 10%, Social Security would be rolling in dough. Or subject stock option incentives to SS tax. Or, heaven forbid, treating capital gains just like earned income.

Chomper Higgot · July 25, 2022

10 minutes ago, KanchanaburiGuy said:

For decades, illegal immigration has been a serious political issue. Republicans talk about it; Democrats talk about it. There are laws being broken and laws being ignored.

Businesses make profits they are not supposed to, and then don't pay the correct taxes on their profits and their payroll. Job seekers who follow the law.......... get aced-out of jobs by cheaper workers who are willing to break the law.

Meanwhile, when Republicans have control of Congress and/or the Presidency, nothing gets done. When Democrats have control of Congress and/or the Presidency, nothing gets done. (Probably the biggest thing attempted in the last 50 years was the Reagan-era(?) amnesty program for illegals who were already here. But that wasn't a solution; that was capitulation! And that, besides being a horrible failure, sent the future a terrible message: "Go ahead and break in. We'll forgive you!" [Remember: "If you reward bad behavior, you're destined to get more of it!"] And thus, here we are!)

But why is all that?

Why do Republicans talk about it and then do nothing? Why do Democrats talk about it, and then do nothing?

Why is it that once they get elected, the only thing they seem to totally agree on......... is to NOT do anything meaningful to stem the tide of illegal immigration........... and to NOT do anything meaningful to expel the illegal aliens that are already here?

Why is that?

Well, turns out there IS a reason. Turns out there's a "Dirty Little Secret" kind of reason, but it's a reason, nonetheless!

Consider this:

Remember when Social Security was being called the "Third-Rail of American Politics?" When it was believed that anyone who talked about reforming, changing, and/or cutting-back on Social Security........... guaranteed they'd be ousted at the ballot box, or become a pariah in Congress if they did get elected? Remember that?

To the best of my recollection, that thinking started in earnest in the 70s............ and has been one of the "Golden Rules of Politics" ever since!

So............. What does Social Security have to do with the almost universal lack-of-effort toward creating meaningful Illegal-Immigrant/Illegal-Alien policies by both parties? Why does neither party seem interested in creating real "Kick-'em-Out and Keep-'em-Out" policies, despite all their talk about favoring them?

The answer is: Social Security!

Social Security? Really? How can that be?

Well, I guess everybody knows by now that Social Security was set up as a Ponzi Scheme: It only works when there is an expanding population contributing it.

Except, beginning in the 60s and 70s, people.stopped having 3 and 4 and 5 kids. We suddenly found ourselves facing near ZPG conditions [ZPG = Zero Population Growth!]

Yes, the population has kept expanding. But that's mostly because people stopped dying when they were expected to! And that ultimately ADDS to the burden that Social Security is under.......... rather than helping to alleviate it!

So again, what does this have to do with Illegal Immigration and Congress?

Well, the answer to that is the "Dirty Little Secret" that politicians will never talk about! It's this.......

Illegal Immigrants provide the "expanded population" that Social Security absolutely requires. The "expanded worker population" that our American birth-rate has failed to keep up with!

Remember: "Social Security---The Third-Rail of American Politics!"

What they won't say is.......... what's too risky to say is.......

If the government effectively shuts down the flow of people crossing the border............. and/or sufficiently expels the Illegal Alien population that is already here........ it will spell the death of Social Security as we know it!

(Try keeping this in mind as you ask yourself, "Why was the only serious attempt in the last 50 years merely an AMNESTY.......... keeping the people here!......... rather than actually attempting EXPULSION?" And........ "Why would the only serious attempt in the last 50 years..........also be the one thing that would almost guarantee an increase in the number of people who try to come here? Hmmm?)

--------------------

Truly meaningful and effective Immigration Reform.........

=means=

..........Grabbing "The Third-Rail of American Politics" with both hands!

-----------------

(Now, a lot of people will respond, "Illegal Aliens".......... or "Undocumented Workers," if you prefer........ don't pay into Social Security. But the fact is, the majority probably do............ either through the front door or the back door.

What's more, being Illegal........ even though they've paid INTO the system............ they will likely never be able to take anything OUT of it! This our cynical, cover-their-own-butts government would call a "win-win!")

Bottom Line:

Immigration......... whether legal or illegal......... solves a big part of the "expanding population" problem that is inherent in the Social Security Ponzi Scheme. It solves a problem that our American birth-rate has been incapable of solving since the 60s or 70s.

If screwing up Social Security........... or even having serious conversations about changing it........ can be a virtual death-sentence to a national politician............ why would they to anything to hinder this easy, automatic solution that simply doing nothing instead presents?

Answer is........... they wouldn't!

And that's why Democrats and Republicans alike........... talk up a good game.......... but when the rubber hits the road, they wind up doing nothing!

That would be a great argument if there were not so many examples of nations with older demographics, and very much more generous social welfare programs funding their social welfare commitments without vast numbers of undocumented immigrants.

A far simpler example is to examine the impact on the whole economy of undocumented immigrants, whole sectors of the US economy are deeply dependent on undocumented immigrants, removing that dependence would have direct impacts on the viability of many businesses and would drive up costs to consumers.

The dependence on cheep undocumented immigrant workers is a direct result of the pursuit of ever lower costs/higher prices.

There is only one down side to formalizing and managing immigrant worker access, the economy needs workers, the immigrants need work.

That downside is documented immigrant workers would not be subject to the fears that prevent them obtaining better rates of pay and work place benefits.

That would increase costs that would reduce profits and/or drive up consumer prices.

The US economy and consumers is addicted to the cheep costs that come from the use of undocumented immigrants.

Chomper Higgot · July 25, 2022

1 hour ago, Chris.B said:

You mean the tax payers of California.

The tax payers in California include the immigrants in California , all the businesses making increased profits by employing undocumented immigrants and all the consumers paying cheaper prices for goods and services provided by the labour of cheep undocumented immigrants.

KanchanaburiGuy · July 25, 2022

3 hours ago, Hanaguma said:

Process visas and asylum claims at consulates and embassies in foreign countries, not in the US.

I think if a person or family truly needs asylum............ the first priority has to be to get them out and away from the thing that is threatening them.

Couldn't processing asylum requests in a person's home country kind of create a Catch-22 situation?

"If you're safe enough to stay in your home country while we investigate and process your asylum request.......... then you don't really need to go to the United States for asylum, do you?"

Nah, if we're going to be serious about providing asylum, we always need to be sure we are prioritizing protection over paperwork.

Of course, how we HANDLE asylum-seekers after they arrive, that........... THAT.......... can stand some major, major, MAJOR improvements! This "Scoot along now, it's okay. But y'all come back when we call, now, hear?" approach.......... leaves a whole lot to be desired!

KanchanaburiGuy · July 25, 2022

56 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

1 hour ago, KanchanaburiGuy said:

For decades, illegal immigration has been a serious political issue. Republicans talk about it; Democrats talk about it. There are laws being broken and laws being ignored.

Businesses make profits they are not supposed to, and then don't pay the correct taxes on their profits and their payroll. Job seekers who follow the law.......... get aced-out of jobs by cheaper workers who are willing to break the law.

Meanwhile, when Republicans have control of Congress and/or the Presidency, nothing gets done. When Democrats have control of Congress and/or the Presidency, nothing gets done. (Probably the biggest thing attempted in the last 50 years was the Reagan-era(?) amnesty program for illegals who were already here. But that wasn't a solution; that was capitulation! And that, besides being a horrible failure, sent the future a terrible message: "Go ahead and break in. We'll forgive you!" [Remember: "If you reward bad behavior, you're destined to get more of it!"] And thus, here we are!)

But why is all that?

Why do Republicans talk about it and then do nothing? Why do Democrats talk about it, and then do nothing?

Why is it that once they get elected, the only thing they seem to totally agree on......... is to NOT do anything meaningful to stem the tide of illegal immigration........... and to NOT do anything meaningful to expel the illegal aliens that are already here?

Why is that?

Well, turns out there IS a reason. Turns out there's a "Dirty Little Secret" kind of reason, but it's a reason, nonetheless!

Consider this:

Remember when Social Security was being called the "Third-Rail of American Politics?" When it was believed that anyone who talked about reforming, changing, and/or cutting-back on Social Security........... guaranteed they'd be ousted at the ballot box, or become a pariah in Congress if they did get elected? Remember that?

To the best of my recollection, that thinking started in earnest in the 70s............ and has been one of the "Golden Rules of Politics" ever since!

So............. What does Social Security have to do with the almost universal lack-of-effort toward creating meaningful Illegal-Immigrant/Illegal-Alien policies by both parties? Why does neither party seem interested in creating real "Kick-'em-Out and Keep-'em-Out" policies, despite all their talk about favoring them?

The answer is: Social Security!

Social Security? Really? How can that be?

Well, I guess everybody knows by now that Social Security was set up as a Ponzi Scheme: It only works when there is an expanding population contributing it.

Except, beginning in the 60s and 70s, people.stopped having 3 and 4 and 5 kids. We suddenly found ourselves facing near ZPG conditions [ZPG = Zero Population Growth!]

Yes, the population has kept expanding. But that's mostly because people stopped dying when they were expected to! And that ultimately ADDS to the burden that Social Security is under.......... rather than helping to alleviate it!

So again, what does this have to do with Illegal Immigration and Congress?

Well, the answer to that is the "Dirty Little Secret" that politicians will never talk about! It's this.......

Illegal Immigrants provide the "expanded population" that Social Security absolutely requires. The "expanded worker population" that our American birth-rate has failed to keep up with!

Remember: "Social Security---The Third-Rail of American Politics!"

What they won't say is.......... what's too risky to say is.......

If the government effectively shuts down the flow of people crossing the border............. and/or sufficiently expels the Illegal Alien population that is already here........ it will spell the death of Social Security as we know it!

(Try keeping this in mind as you ask yourself, "Why was the only serious attempt in the last 50 years merely an AMNESTY.......... keeping the people here!......... rather than actually attempting EXPULSION?" And........ "Why would the only serious attempt in the last 50 years..........also be the one thing that would almost guarantee an increase in the number of people who try to come here? Hmmm?)

--------------------

Truly meaningful and effective Immigration Reform.........

=means=

..........Grabbing "The Third-Rail of American Politics" with both hands!

-----------------

(Now, a lot of people will respond, "Illegal Aliens".......... or "Undocumented Workers," if you prefer........ don't pay into Social Security. But the fact is, the majority probably do............ either through the front door or the back door.

What's more, being Illegal........ even though they've paid INTO the system............ they will likely never be able to take anything OUT of it! This our cynical, cover-their-own-butts government would call a "win-win!")

Bottom Line:

Immigration......... whether legal or illegal......... solves a big part of the "expanding population" problem that is inherent in the Social Security Ponzi Scheme. It solves a problem that our American birth-rate has been incapable of solving since the 60s or 70s.

If screwing up Social Security........... or even having serious conversations about changing it........ can be a virtual death-sentence to a national politician............ why would they to anything to hinder this easy, automatic solution that simply doing nothing instead presents?

Answer is........... they wouldn't!

And that's why Democrats and Republicans alike........... talk up a good game.......... but when the rubber hits the road, they wind up doing nothing!

Expand

That would be a great argument if there were not so many examples of nations with older demographics, and very much more generous social welfare programs funding their social welfare commitments without vast numbers of undocumented immigrant

It would be helpful if you could name at least couple of those "so many examples," so we might consider what OTHER factors might explain their "success?"

For example, do they basically have a closed society, like Japan? (No "immigrant problem" because no immigrants! kinda/sorta.) Are they oil-rich like Denmark? Have they agreed as a society to carry 30 - 50% more tax burden than Americans have, so they can have these things? Do they have minimal military and self-defense expensitures freeing up tons of cash.......... because they have strong neighbors who have invested in expensive militaries that can protect them, if necessary (like Canada)?

Now, you may be right. But it seems to me there could be many reasons for their "success" that have nothing to do with documented or undocumented workers. Illegal Immigration may never have been a problem for them, so they've never had to adapt to that reality.

So, would you be willing to name a few of these "so many examples" you're talking about?

Chomper Higgot · July 25, 2022

4 hours ago, KanchanaburiGuy said:

It would be helpful if you could name at least couple of those "so many examples," so we might consider what OTHER factors might explain their "success?"

For example, do they basically have a closed society, like Japan? (No "immigrant problem" because no immigrants! kinda/sorta.) Are they oil-rich like Denmark? Have they agreed as a society to carry 30 - 50% more tax burden than Americans have, so they can have these things? Do they have minimal military and self-defense expensitures freeing up tons of cash.......... because they have strong neighbors who have invested in expensive militaries that can protect them, if necessary (like Canada)?

Now, you may be right. But it seems to me there could be many reasons for their "success" that have nothing to do with documented or undocumented workers. Illegal Immigration may never have been a problem for them, so they've never had to adapt to that reality.

So, would you be willing to name a few of these "so many examples" you're talking about?

The UK, France, Germany…..

ozimoron · July 25, 2022

On 7/23/2022 at 7:01 AM, placeholder said:

So what's stopping all those ferocious politicians advocating walls and increased deportations from passing laws to make hiring illegals a felony?

Money. Meat, fruit and veges are cheap in the US because of the reliance on illegal labor. Along with farm subsidies, the illegal labor enables US agricultural products to compete internationally.

ozimoron · July 25, 2022

7 hours ago, KanchanaburiGuy said:

For decades, illegal immigration has been a serious political issue. Republicans talk about it; Democrats talk about it. There are laws being broken and laws being ignored.

Businesses make profits they are not supposed to, and then don't pay the correct taxes on their profits and their payroll. Job seekers who follow the law.......... get aced-out of jobs by cheaper workers who are willing to break the law.

Meanwhile, when Republicans have control of Congress and/or the Presidency, nothing gets done. When Democrats have control of Congress and/or the Presidency, nothing gets done. (Probably the biggest thing attempted in the last 50 years was the Reagan-era(?) amnesty program for illegals who were already here. But that wasn't a solution; that was capitulation! And that, besides being a horrible failure, sent the future a terrible message: "Go ahead and break in. We'll forgive you!" [Remember: "If you reward bad behavior, you're destined to get more of it!"] And thus, here we are!)

But why is all that?

Why do Republicans talk about it and then do nothing? Why do Democrats talk about it, and then do nothing?

Why is it that once they get elected, the only thing they seem to totally agree on......... is to NOT do anything meaningful to stem the tide of illegal immigration........... and to NOT do anything meaningful to expel the illegal aliens that are already here?

Why is that?

Well, turns out there IS a reason. Turns out there's a "Dirty Little Secret" kind of reason, but it's a reason, nonetheless!

Consider this:

Remember when Social Security was being called the "Third-Rail of American Politics?" When it was believed that anyone who talked about reforming, changing, and/or cutting-back on Social Security........... guaranteed they'd be ousted at the ballot box, or become a pariah in Congress if they did get elected? Remember that?

To the best of my recollection, that thinking started in earnest in the 70s............ and has been one of the "Golden Rules of Politics" ever since!

So............. What does Social Security have to do with the almost universal lack-of-effort toward creating meaningful Illegal-Immigrant/Illegal-Alien policies by both parties? Why does neither party seem interested in creating real "Kick-'em-Out and Keep-'em-Out" policies, despite all their talk about favoring them?

The answer is: Social Security!

Social Security? Really? How can that be?

Well, I guess everybody knows by now that Social Security was set up as a Ponzi Scheme: It only works when there is an expanding population contributing it.

Except, beginning in the 60s and 70s, people.stopped having 3 and 4 and 5 kids. We suddenly found ourselves facing near ZPG conditions [ZPG = Zero Population Growth!]

Yes, the population has kept expanding. But that's mostly because people stopped dying when they were expected to! And that ultimately ADDS to the burden that Social Security is under.......... rather than helping to alleviate it!

So again, what does this have to do with Illegal Immigration and Congress?

Well, the answer to that is the "Dirty Little Secret" that politicians will never talk about! It's this.......

Illegal Immigrants provide the "expanded population" that Social Security absolutely requires. The "expanded worker population" that our American birth-rate has failed to keep up with!

Remember: "Social Security---The Third-Rail of American Politics!"

What they won't say is.......... what's too risky to say is.......

If the government effectively shuts down the flow of people crossing the border............. and/or sufficiently expels the Illegal Alien population that is already here........ it will spell the death of Social Security as we know it!

(Try keeping this in mind as you ask yourself, "Why was the only serious attempt in the last 50 years merely an AMNESTY.......... keeping the people here!......... rather than actually attempting EXPULSION?" And........ "Why would the only serious attempt in the last 50 years..........also be the one thing that would almost guarantee an increase in the number of people who try to come here? Hmmm?)

--------------------

Truly meaningful and effective Immigration Reform.........

=means=

..........Grabbing "The Third-Rail of American Politics" with both hands!

-----------------

(Now, a lot of people will respond, "Illegal Aliens".......... or "Undocumented Workers," if you prefer........ don't pay into Social Security. But the fact is, the majority probably do............ either through the front door or the back door.

What's more, being Illegal........ even though they've paid INTO the system............ they will likely never be able to take anything OUT of it! This our cynical, cover-their-own-butts government would call a "win-win!")

Bottom Line:

Immigration......... whether legal or illegal......... solves a big part of the "expanding population" problem that is inherent in the Social Security Ponzi Scheme. It solves a problem that our American birth-rate has been incapable of solving since the 60s or 70s.

If screwing up Social Security........... or even having serious conversations about changing it........ can be a virtual death-sentence to a national politician............ why would they do anything to hinder this easy, automatic solution ..............a solution made possible by simply doing nothing?

Answer is........... they wouldn't!

And that's why Democrats and Republicans alike........... talk up a good game.......... but when the rubber hits the road, they wind up doing nothing!

It's not just social security, it's the entire income tax system which needs increasing numbers of people paying to provide services. The solution is to move to a corporate tax system and a living wage. Many republicans support a living wage because they understand that the corporations can't keep transferring wealth from the middle class to the rich without an eventual backlash. Few corporations pay any meaningful tax but rake in most of the wealth in a system which has been expanding for decades.

Hanaguma · July 25, 2022

47 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

Money. Meat, fruit and veges are cheap in the US because of the reliance on illegal labor. Along with farm subsidies, the illegal labor enables US agricultural products to compete internationally.

According to this article, about 12% of overall farm costs are due to labour costs. This rises to nearly 40% for tree fruits and nuts (they are the highest).

https://www.ers.usda.gov/topics/farm-economy/farm-labor/#:~:text=According to data from the 2017 Census of Agriculture%2C wages,fruit and tree nut operations.

Now, assuming that illegals make up 40% of all farm labour, such as in California, we can do a bit of math. Let's assume that illegal workers make only half of what legal workers do. If they are replaced with legal workers, cost will rise by:

Illegal workers make up 40% of the 40% labor cost. So 16%. Now, if double that to hire people, that would be a 16% increase in total cost. And that is for the most labor intensive crops (apples, nuts, etc). Cost of food rises by 16% for the end consumer.

On a regular farm wiere labor is 12% of total cost, it would mean an increase of ... OK, assume 40% of workers areillegal, that means 4.8% of the cost is illegal labor. So again, the cost of farm goods would rise by about 5%.

Not much to pay in order for legal residents to work, and to help Americans.

ozimoron · July 25, 2022

6 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

According to this article, about 12% of overall farm costs are due to labour costs. This rises to nearly 40% for tree fruits and nuts (they are the highest).

https://www.ers.usda.gov/topics/farm-economy/farm-labor/#:~:text=According to data from the 2017 Census of Agriculture%2C wages,fruit and tree nut operations.

Now, assuming that illegals make up 40% of all farm labour, such as in California, we can do a bit of math. Let's assume that illegal workers make only half of what legal workers do. If they are replaced with legal workers, cost will rise by:

Illegal workers make up 40% of the 40% labor cost. So 16%. Now, if double that to hire people, that would be a 16% increase in total cost. And that is for the most labor intensive crops (apples, nuts, etc). Cost of food rises by 16% for the end consumer.

On a regular farm wiere labor is 12% of total cost, it would mean an increase of ... OK, assume 40% of workers areillegal, that means 4.8% of the cost is illegal labor. So again, the cost of farm goods would rise by about 5%.

Not much to pay in order for legal residents to work, and to help Americans.

Where did you get 40% from? Your link shows crop and livestock laborers born outside the US to be much higher. I know that illegals don't necessarily correlate exactly but I'd say most were since the low unemployment rate means that many legal immigrants could get better jobs.

BangkokHank · July 25, 2022

On 7/20/2022 at 4:56 PM, Mac Mickmanus said:

Why are there so many people wanting to go to the USA , when there are Americans living in tent cities ?

Free tents?

Chomper Higgot · July 25, 2022

30 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

According to this article, about 12% of overall farm costs are due to labour costs. This rises to nearly 40% for tree fruits and nuts (they are the highest).

https://www.ers.usda.gov/topics/farm-economy/farm-labor/#:~:text=According to data from the 2017 Census of Agriculture%2C wages,fruit and tree nut operations.

Now, assuming that illegals make up 40% of all farm labour, such as in California, we can do a bit of math. Let's assume that illegal workers make only half of what legal workers do. If they are replaced with legal workers, cost will rise by:

Illegal workers make up 40% of the 40% labor cost. So 16%. Now, if double that to hire people, that would be a 16% increase in total cost. And that is for the most labor intensive crops (apples, nuts, etc). Cost of food rises by 16% for the end consumer.

On a regular farm wiere labor is 12% of total cost, it would mean an increase of ... OK, assume 40% of workers areillegal, that means 4.8% of the cost is illegal labor. So again, the cost of farm goods would rise by about 5%.

Not much to pay in order for legal residents to work, and to help Americans.

So punish businesses for employing undocumented workers.

Simple, effective and self supporting from penalties and fines collected.

It does however negate possibilities to visit cruelty and inhumane treatment on poor and powerless immigrants.

Edited July 25, 2022 by Chomper Higgot

Hanaguma · July 25, 2022

11 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

So punish businesses for employing undocumented workers.

Simple, effective and self supporting from penalties and fines collected.

It does however negate possibilities to visit cruelty and inhumane treatment on poor and powerless immigrants.

I have no trouble punishing the employers. Also punishing the illegals. Only makes sense.

Hanaguma · July 25, 2022

34 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

Where did you get 40% from? Your link shows crop and livestock laborers born outside the US to be much higher. I know that illegals don't necessarily correlate exactly but I'd say most were since the low unemployment rate means that many legal immigrants could get better jobs.

The stats are divided between "born outside the US" and "undocumented".

https://research.newamericaneconomy.org/report/immigration-and-agriculture/#:~:text=As recently as 2019%2C almost,(27.3 percent) were undocumented.

Scott · July 25, 2022

Posts that continue to advocate for physically harming people crossing the border will result in suspensions.

KanchanaburiGuy · July 25, 2022

35 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

So punish businesses for employing undocumented workers.

Simple, effective and self supporting from penalties and fines collected.

It does however negate possibilities to visit cruelty and inhumane treatment on poor and powerless immigrants.

There's an old business adage that comes to mind here...........

"When a business starts to pay for things........... they go out of business."

What that means, of course, is that businesses get all the money they use to pay for things from their customers. If they start having to use their own money to pay for things, it means they are losing money!

Now there are lots of situational exceptions to this, I agree. But it is nonetheless generally true.

So, I must ask..........

Aren't the "fines & penalties" you're talking about a lot like Trump's Chinese Tariffs? Isn't it the CONSUMER that winds up paying for all of that........... not the country/business that you're supposedly trying to punish?

Now I totally agree that if we're going to take all this seriously, there needs to be a serious crackdown on employers who hire Illegal Aliens and Undocumented Workers.

But you seem to be gleefully ignoring the significant and impactful Cause and Effect consequences that inevitably come from doing this. And I see no attempt to consider what Unintended Consequences may result from using such heavy-handed and narrowly-focused enforcement schemes.

KanchanaburiGuy · July 25, 2022

1 hour ago, Chomper Higgot said:

It does however negate possibilities to visit cruelty and inhumane treatment on poor and powerless immigrants.

Well now..........

A lot of those illegal workers came to America because of the cruel and inhumane situations that already exist in their home countries. And a lot of them work like dogs to scrape together a few dollars here and a few dollars there........... so they can send a little money home with the hope of keeping their families from becoming completely destitute!

So............

While you're thinking about saving these workers---these people---from being ravaged by unfair and predatory employers............

.............are you also giving any thought to the possibility that by taking away their jobs......... we may also be taking away the only thing that is keeping the worker.s........and their families.......... out of abject poverty and destitution?

As I asked in my first post in this thread............. Does your compassion have a Nationality? Does your sense of compassion stop at the border?

Because a lot of those "Illegal Workers" aren't coming here for the life they can build HERE. They are doing it to try to save their families THERE!

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