Minor collision: Who's in the wrong?

[richard_smith237]

11 hours ago, Thunglom said:

This is the lassie mistake foreigners make - the truth is tat priority is by default on the left - unfortunately it can be overruled by a "competent" police officer or by a designated road - foreigners for some reason think they know what te designated road is - mostly they are wrong.

 

it is the idea of "Principe roadway" that foreigners get so wrong.

 

If you've driven in France back in the 1960s and 1970s you will have witnessed the converse and how this works - and seen the havoc that poor signage created. However it still exists, mainly in towns but more importantly and the same in Thailand it is deeply ingrained in the national psyche - particularly in older drivers.

It never existed in the UK which is why UK drivers are particularly vulnerable to this.

I'm not quite certain of the point you are attempting to make here... But it appears you are trying to articulate that foreign drivers, particularly the British are vulnerable because of laws that existed in France back in the 1960 and 1970’s.... 

 

Or, you maybe implying that British tend to follow fixed driving rules which can leave them vulnerable to the chaos when expecting others to follow the same standards - IF this is the case, I’d agree.

 

The safest way to drive here is to never assume the other drivers are going to follow the rules. At the same time we have to drive in a somewhat assertive manner, i.e. in the cities, edge out of junctions into busy traffic etc... otherwise we’d never progress anywhere. 

[richard_smith237]

On 8/11/2022 at 4:21 PM, Happy Howard said:

And of course the old Thai adage " it is always Farangs fault as if they come to Thailand accident not happen"

555

Stay away from the guys who occupy the bars stools all day long....  You'll get fed less dumb BS... 

[richard_smith237]

On 8/11/2022 at 4:21 PM, sawadee1947 said:

Not on any side.

In you case she was passing the queing right lane on the left side. This is allowed in Thailand.

So your fault 

Its not - because she left the road to ‘under-take’ the vehicle which had given way to the Op. 

 

The lady committed to an illegal road manoeuvre herself - She was in the wrong, it could have been a child crossing the road. 

 

-----

 

Of course, from a ‘safety’ perspective the Op ‘should’ have assumed that an idiot will still try and under-take the stoped SUV, because this is Thailand and this is what how many idiots who ride motorcycles behave. 

But, legally, the Op did not undertake an illegal road manoeuvre, the lady, by undertaking the SUV did (the SUV was not turning right, which is one of the few situations where passing not the left would be permitted). 

[richard_smith237]

On 8/12/2022 at 3:29 AM, sawadee1947 said:

Sorry, my mistake. 

However, in case to survive and knowing about Thai abilities in driving and follow any rules......I rather would wait until no car or other scooter would be seen to harm me. Sure, not easy.

And then some ayhole drives into the back of you because you are stopped in the road waiting to turn... 

 

Its sometimes better to deal with whats in front of you than what may or may not be behind you. 

 

With the benefit of 20:20 hind-sight - the Op turned in front of the SUV which gave way to him which is fine... the Op should have ‘also’ slowed right down to check nothing was squeezing up the inside (left side) of the SUV.

 

This is an issue with drivers / riders in Thailand - a major unwillingness to slow, slop or give way. 

We see this at so many pedestrian crossings, junctions, traffic lights etc...  

Cars stop when others want to accelerate through. 

We see it at crossings when one vehicle has stopped and motorcyclists scream through the middle without any idea or consideration as to why the car stopped.

 

 

[2long]

I have to admit that I do not feel 100% in the right. But nor can I see this lady as being either 100% right or wrong.

I've ridden bikes for more than 40 years and more than 20 here in Bangkok, so I'm not a beginner.

Also, this lady wasn't the only one racing up the inside of the traffic, as there was one a bit before her, and (as I found out) one more behind her.

And at the end of the day no damage or injuries occurred, so it's no big deal.

But the fact that she was berating me (and I'd hazard a guess I was riding bikes before she was born) did touch a bit of a nerve on the day. But from my personal experience, undertaking on single lane roads is just asking for trouble, regardless of the legalities. Quite often when I'm trying to pass slower vehicles on the right-hand side (in the middle of the road) Thai riders try to make quicker progress than me by undertaking. 9 times out of 10 I'm ahead of them by the time the road opens up. So, undertaking is not only dangerous and possibly illegal, it often isn't any quicker. ????????

[richard_smith237]

1 minute ago, 2long said:

I have to admit that I do not feel 100% in the right. But nor can I see this lady as being either 100% right or wrong.

I've ridden bikes for more than 40 years and more than 20 here in Bangkok, so I'm not a beginner.

Also, this lady wasn't the only one racing up the inside of the traffic, as there was one a bit before her, and (as I found out) one more behind her.

And at the end of the day no damage or injuries occurred, so it's no big deal.

But the fact that she was berating me (and I'd hazard a guess I was riding bikes before she was born) did touch a bit of a nerve on the day. But from my personal experience, undertaking on single lane roads is just asking for trouble, regardless of the legalities. Quite often when I'm trying to pass slower vehicles on the right-hand side (in the middle of the road) Thai riders try to make quicker progress than me by undertaking. 9 times out of 10 I'm ahead of them by the time the road opens up. So, undertaking is not only dangerous and possibly illegal, it often isn't any quicker. ????????

I think this is part of the issue when riding in Thailand. 

 

When we used the roads we are forced to adopt to some of the ‘local techniques’ just to be able to get somewhere. 

It may actually be safer not following the law to a T because doing so could place us at greater risk. 

 

There are many examples of this, but I’ll use one...   following the car in-front which is going through the traffic light on Amber (legally we should stop)... 

We know the car behind us is also trying to ‘push’ to get through the lights, so if we stop we are at risk of that car hitting us. 

OR, if there is no vehicle immediately behind us and we do stop, we are then first at the lights and positioned vulnerably if a truck of car doesn’t see the lights (i.e. has break failure !)....

 

So... what do we do ?... we follow the car in front going through on Amber, or maybe even red... Why? its safer... But then we have the other motorcyclists waiting for the green light... Some will count down or even predict the lights and go early....  then there is a risk of collision...

 

Who is in the wrong ?....   Both of course - but thats the chance. 

 

In the case of the OP....  he was permitted right of way by the SUV...   the lady undertook the SUV.

Lady was in the wrong... its not really a grey area as described above. 

[sawadee1947]

13 hours ago, Thunglom said:

This is the lassie mistake foreigners make - the truth is tat priority is by default on the left - unfortunately it can be overruled by a "competent" police officer or by a designated road - foreigners for some reason think they know what te designated road is - mostly they are wrong.

 

it is the idea of "Principe roadway" that foreigners get so wrong.

 

If you've driven in France back in the 1960s and 1970s you will have witnessed the converse and how this works - and seen the havoc that poor signage created. However it still exists, mainly in towns but more importantly and the same in Thailand it is deeply ingrained in the national psyche - particularly in older drivers.

It never existed in the UK which is why UK drivers are particularly vulnerable to this.

You want to say that French were maniacs on the road during the 60s and 70s? I would agree to extend it up the 80s.

However, I've been to Paris last year with my motorhome and was stunned. Perfect followers of rules. No honking anymore. The most surprising event was biking through Paris. Cycle tracks almost everywhere. Very safe. No troubles anymore.????

[Butterflyman]

On 8/11/2022 at 5:42 AM, 2long said:

The trouble is, it's pretty much impossible to see what's coming up the inside of an SUV in such a tight and narrow space without at least sticking my front wheel past the corner of the SUV, which is what I did.
I'm certainly not claiming to be in the right, but nor am I taking all the blame.

 

It's not really 'lane splitting' because there is only one lane travelling in each direction. It's undertaking, past a market carpark.

If you stopped in front of the SUV, stuck your front wheel out and did not see her,  then you should go to "bike savers". Sorry I agree with many other, TIT be prepared for every incidents and act accordingly. 80/20 in her favor!

[Lokie]

When cutting across the flow of traffic the onus is on you to ensure it is safe to cut across. So OP IMO was in the wrong, lucky for him was just a scooter in this instance. 

[richard_smith237]

2 hours ago, Lokie said:

When cutting across the flow of traffic the onus is on you to ensure it is safe to cut across. So OP IMO was in the wrong, lucky for him was just a scooter in this instance. 

It was a single lane in each direction...   so what do you mean lucky for him it was only a scooter ?

 

The SUV had stopped there was no room for a lorry, a truck or another car... 

 

The motorcyclist that was following the SUV decided to ride down the gutter to undertake the SUV, this endeavour itself was extremely stupid, what if the SUV was going to turn left ?

 

I do agree, the onus is on each of us to ensure the route is clear...  and it was, until another motorcyclist did something stupid. 

[Thunglom]

6 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

I'm not quite certain of the point you are attempting to make here... But it appears you are trying to articulate that foreign drivers, particularly the British are vulnerable because of laws that existed in France back in the 1960 and 1970’s.... 

 

Or, you maybe implying that British tend to follow fixed driving rules which can leave them vulnerable to the chaos when expecting others to follow the same standards - IF this is the case, I’d agree.

 

The safest way to drive here is to never assume the other drivers are going to follow the rules. At the same time we have to drive in a somewhat assertive manner, i.e. in the cities, edge out of junctions into busy traffic etc... otherwise we’d never progress anywhere. 

You either have very low comprehension abilities or just being obtuse.

 

I think it's fairly obvious that most foreign drivers don't know the rules let along follow them.

[Thunglom]

4 hours ago, sawadee1947 said:

You want to say that French were maniacs on the road during the 60s and 70s? I would agree to extend it up the 80s.

So how did they suddenly change?

[Thunglom]

There NEVER is 100% blame in an RTI - and trying to attribute blame is a mug's game.

[proton]

The cops decide who is wrong, often having no bearing on the actual facts.

[The Hammer2021]

On 8/11/2022 at 5:00 PM, swm59nj said:

Driving here is a crapshoot.  It seems the individual drivers just make up their own rules.  One would have the impression there are no set traffic rules.
As an example I use grabcar quite a bit.  I live in a condo building in Asoke surrounded by office buildings on both sides of a main road.  Vehicles enter and exit all these buildings constantly from the opposite sides of the road. 
99% of the grabcar drivers will turn to enter my building crossing the opposite side of the road.  The reminder say they cannot.  And tell me I have to get out across the road. 
I have asked the English speaking Thai drivers about this.  And they all give completely  different versions of the traffic law. 
So it’s not the official law.  It’s what the drivers want to do at that time. And many just don’t know what they are doing or don’t care

Try New York LOL

[Lancashirelad]

As a former UK Driving Instructor (24 years part-time) having passed numerous advanced driving tests, several at high level + having driven a variety of vehicles in 14 countries: The OP turned across the path of an oncoming vehicle and collided with it. Before the days of magnetic boards with model vehicles I have drawn on paper this exact scenario as a learning point many times.

In many countries, the UK & Thailand included, it is to be expected that 2 wheelers will filter up the nearside of stationary traffic, legally or otherwise. As drivers we have to constantly make allowances for the mistakes of other road users. In Thailand it is the norm for m/cycle riders to do this & the OP should have been well aware of that. 

[Orinoco]

15 hours ago, 2long said:

I've ridden bikes for more than 40 years and more than 20 here in Bangkok, so I'm not a beginner.

If that's the case then.

You should have known better.

22 years here riding and driving, never done what you did.

You never stopped and looked, did you.

Who's the beginner. 

Like i said before ,lucky you never had a big hospital bill for her and yourself.

Now back to  my Bar stool. 

 

 

[macahoom]

8 hours ago, Lancashirelad said:

In many countries, the UK & Thailand included, it is to be expected that 2 wheelers will filter up the nearside of stationary traffic, legally or otherwise. As drivers we have to constantly make allowances for the mistakes of other road users. In Thailand it is the norm for m/cycle riders to do this & the OP should have been well aware of that. 

At last! Hit the nail on the head.

[2long]

It appears to me that @Orinoco seems hell bent on posting about how very wrong I was, and the sad/confused emoji reactions break my heart so much... oh no, it's going to affect my 'AseanNow reputation'! ????????????

 

You have made your point that I was 300% in the wrong, so please move on to comment on something else.

[seajae]

still remember when we stopped the car so I could get out of the passenger side door and as I started to open the door I looked into the mirror and saw a motorbike flying along in the small space between the cars and the gutter so stopped, he would have taken the door off and probably caused major injury to himself and me if  hadnt seen him. Unfortunately thai riders dont follow the road rules  and do as they please, the police refuse to stop them as well, they are riding outide the marked/lawful lanes on the road so they are at fault but they refuse to accept that here

[Orinoco]

24 minutes ago, 2long said:

It appears to me that @Orinoco seems hell bent on posting about how very wrong I was, and the sad/confused emoji reactions break my heart so much... oh no, it's going to affect my 'AseanNow reputation'! ????????????

 

You have made your point that I was 300% in the wrong, so please move on to comment on something else.

No , you started the Emoji thing.

But think your Op,  is just a load of embellished rubbish covering your bad behavior on the roads of Thailand.

Also you didn't like a Thai person voicing her anger at you for what you just did.

How dare she do that.

You need to, Learn,  Grow up,  Move on.

 

[chalawaan]

In Kalaland the correct answer is always: Joe Falang. 

[NanLaew]

On 8/11/2022 at 5:42 AM, 2long said:

The trouble is, it's pretty much impossible to see what's coming up the inside of an SUV in such a tight and narrow space without at least sticking my front wheel past the corner of the SUV, which is what I did.
I'm certainly not claiming to be in the right, but nor am I taking all the blame.

 

It's not really 'lane splitting' because there is only one lane travelling in each direction. It's undertaking, past a market carpark.

The front wheel's the only bit you should have stuck very slowly into the nearside 'passing lane'. You can't account for stupidity of other road users. Regardless of how much wheel you show, the locals will STILL try and shoot the gap around you rather than stop.

 

My gate opens onto a narrow soi and although I have mounted one of them convex mirrors to assist ME with detecting traffic as I inch out of my yard in my truck (other drivers never EVER use these mirrors to THEIR advantage), only the slow-moving salengs have ever stopped. Many a time I've been virtually blocking the soi as I exit while turning and most 2-wheels will still shoot that gap. The muttering old lady types barging through even lay on their sheep fart bike horn without a sideways glance* just to make sure I know how rude, irresponsible and arrogant I've been.

 

* If only they could have tinted windows on a bike...?