legal to sell land in this way?

[Peterw42]

OP, you do realize that the POA gives permission for someone to act on behalf of the owner at the land office, complete the sale as if they are the owner, etc.

IT DOESNT MEAN, the person with POA gets to keep the money !!!

The money still goes to the seller, a cashiers cheque made out to the seller, or banked into the sellers account etc.

The POA can recieve the cheque and bank it into sellers account, but the money goes to the seller.

[flipper2222222]

11 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

1) Yes, properties are sold using a POA everyday.

2) No, not if everything is in order with the POA. Why would she be challenging in court if she has signed a POA to sell it ????

just looking for any possible reason that the chanote transfer would be contestable in the future. the fact that the daughter is whereabout unknown is a bit unusual but might have a good reason for this. 

we have no reason to distrust either lawyer, just wanting to check in with others with experience in this area. depending on answers we are thinking of getting another legal opinion.

 

[flipper2222222]

6 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

As long as the POA states so.  

 

That mirrors the exact selling of my first house/land here. I used POA (1st wife/divorced from) to sell house to another foreigner's wife.  Coincidentally, also did the payment, most of, USD to USD in our USA banks, with a we bit of THB at settlement.

 

All went smooth, no lawyers involved, just me & POA, wife of buyer & RE agent that I listed with, at the land office.  If land office accepts POA, then would imagine it's legal to use.

 

Ex-wife was not there or needed for anything.  That was done at Udon Thani.

thanks that is good to know.

[KhunLA]

3 minutes ago, Excel said:

And that my friend is exactly the issue.

If they accept and issue Chanote ... done deal.  Why would they not accept it?

It's a fairly basic legal doc.

[Excel]

Just now, flipper2222222 said:

just looking for any possible reason that the chanote transfer would be contestable in the future. the fact that the daughter is whereabout unknown is a bit unusual but might have a good reason for this. 

we have no reason to distrust either lawyer, just wanting to check in with others with experience in this area. depending on answers we are thinking of getting another legal opinion.

 

We don't know which Land department you will be dealing with. However my advice would be to completely ignore wasting money on lawyers.   Simply go (  with a Thai speaker ) to the relevant land office and ask them directly what, if any, issues may be.  They are generally very helpful.

[flipper2222222]

4 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

OP, you do realize that the POA gives permission for someone to act on behalf of the owner at the land office, complete the sale as if they are the owner, etc.

IT DOESNT MEAN, the person with POA gets to keep the money !!!

The money still goes to the seller, a cashiers cheque made out to the seller, or banked into the sellers account etc.

The POA can recieve the cheque and bank it into sellers account, but the money goes to the seller.

the seller in this case the Australian father is the person who paid for the land and house originally. he will be banking the funds into his accounts.

[Peterw42]

2 minutes ago, Excel said:

And that my friend is exactly the issue.

Its no issue, properties are sold everyday using a POA. The last 2 properties I have purchased, I was dealing with a POA, and never met the owner, who lived overseas.

Its common and legal pratice. A POA exists for no other reason than for someone to act on behalf of an absent/indisposed seller.

Its probably been most sales the last couple of years with absent sellers due to covid.

 

[flipper2222222]

3 minutes ago, Excel said:

We don't know which Land department you will be dealing with. However my advice would be to completely ignore wasting money on lawyers.   Simply go (  with a Thai speaker ) to the relevant land office and ask them directly what, if any, issues may be.  They are generally very helpful.

thank you

[flipper2222222]

4 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

Its no issue, properties are sold everyday using a POA. The last 2 properties I have purchased, I was dealing with a POA, and never met the owner, who lived overseas.

Its common and legal pratice. A POA exists for no other reason than for someone to act on behalf of an absent/indisposed seller.

Its probably been most sales the last couple of years with absent sellers due to covid.

 

and what the seller\POA does with the bank cheques is none of our business, gives to the land owner or not right?

[Peterw42]

2 minutes ago, flipper2222222 said:

the seller in this case the Australian father is the person who paid for the land and house originally. he will be banking the funds into his accounts.

NO, he cannot do that. The payment will be made out to the seller. I think you will find the land office will insist.

POA certainly doesnt grant permission to keep the sellers money, or bank it elsewhere.

[Peterw42]

1 minute ago, flipper2222222 said:

and what the seller\POA does with the bank cheques is none of our business, gives to the land owner or not right?

The cheque will be made out to the owner of the property, not the person with POA.

The POA just handles the payment, its not POA to keep the proceeds.

[flipper2222222]

4 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

NO, he cannot do that. The payment will be made out to the seller. I think you will find the land office will insist.

POA certainly doesnt grant permission to keep the sellers money, or bank it elsewhere.

as far as I am aware I was going to ....

the Australian cheque will be made out in my name and I will endorse it to the seller 

same with the Thai bank cheque

[Hummin]

If land office accept contract, the legal paperwork and the signatures, sign and stamp the official papers.

 

No money under table 

 

It is legal.

 

Why you worry about later when land office approve the sale and new chanote when money is handed over.

 

[Peterw42]

32 minutes ago, flipper2222222 said:

as far as I am aware I was going to ....

the Australian cheque will be made out in my name and I will endorse it to the seller 

same with the Thai bank cheque

The "seller" isnt the person with the POA, they are acting on behalf of the seller.

Thai bank cheques cannot be signed over to another person, and an AU bank cheque can only be signed over if banked in Australia.

I'm not being pedantic here, I literally just went through this 2 months ago. I bought a property off a french guy (not currenttly in Thailand), and he gave POA to a Thai person.  My lawyer, the land office and even the sellers lawyer insisted on a cheque made out to the owner.

Otherwise the owner could claim that they were never paid (and they weren't)

In the above senario, the french seller actually wanted the payment to go to the Thai POAs bank account (who would then transfer it) but it could not be done, even with both parties in agreement.

 

Edited August 13, 2022 by Peterw42

[NanLaew]

It sounds a bit messy with the foreign father apparently planning to receive these funds in lieu of an absent daughter 'that can't be contacted.' He may well have provided the original funds to buy the land years ago but he would have already have 'gifted' that to his wife or daughter. There's an affidavit that is mandatory for a foreigner to sign at the land office when these farang-funded land purchases are made. That may be neither here nor there but the OP talks about seeing copies of the POA. Isn't an original required?

 

Some people have been caught out by POA-supported transfers of vehicle ownership that ultimately were fraudulent. One instance was on this forum several years ago where the whole scam was enabled by the fact that nobody at the Land Transport Office did due diligence on a POA that had a forged signature. This was a POA that the person committing the fraud had paid a lawyer to draft; a legal document. That lawyer also didn't do due diligence on the bona fides of the scammer who was claiming ownership of car that actually belonged to her employer that she was claiming was hers so she could refinance it to get cash for her gambling habit.

 

Finally, to those arguing about their different experiences doing POA-supported dealings at land offices, this is still Thailand where no two land offices will have precisely the same rules or protocols. It's a government office, same as immigration offices and we all know that latter don't all follow the same path.

 

Good luck to the OP and I hope he does the due diligence needed.

 

[NanLaew]

11 minutes ago, Hummin said:

If land office accept contract, the legal paperwork and the signatures, sign and stamp the official papers.

 

No money under table 

 

It is legal.

 

Why you worry about later when land office approve the sale and new chanote when money is handed over.

 

In the instance of the fraudulent car ownership deal I mentioned earlier, the foreign owner of the bought-and-paid for company vehicle had to shell out to the finance company that had refinanced the vehicle for the fraudulent owner.

 

She had forged the foreign company owners signature on an otherwise legal POA in order to transfer the vehicle into her name at the LTO and then refinance it. When she quit her job and stopped paying the finance company, they came looking for her at her last listed place of employment. They were very happy to find 'their' vehicle there and repossess it. The foreigner had to come up with what the fraudster owed the finance company in order to get his company vehicle back.

[flipper2222222]

41 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

The "seller" isnt the person with the POA, they are acting on behalf of the seller.

Thai bank cheques cannot be signed over to another person, and an AU bank cheque can only be signed over if banked in Australia.

I'm not being pedantic here, I literally just went through this 2 months ago. I bought a property off a french guy (not currenttly in Thailand), and he gave POA to a Thai person.  My lawyer, the land office and even the sellers lawyer insisted on a cheque made out to the owner.

Otherwise the owner could claim that they were never paid (and they weren't)

In the above senario, the french seller actually wanted the payment to go to the Thai POAs bank account (who would then transfer it) but it could not be done, even with both parties in agreement.

 

the seller plans to fedex the Australian check back to Australia and get it banked by his POA in Australia,

I will check with our lawyer how to proceed with the Kasikorn bank cheque.

[flipper2222222]

40 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

It sounds a bit messy with the foreign father apparently planning to receive these funds in lieu of an absent daughter 'that can't be contacted.' He may well have provided the original funds to buy the land years ago but he would have already have 'gifted' that to his wife or daughter. There's an affidavit that is mandatory for a foreigner to sign at the land office when these farang-funded land purchases are made. That may be neither here nor there but the OP talks about seeing copies of the POA. Isn't an original required?

 

Some people have been caught out by POA-supported transfers of vehicle ownership that ultimately were fraudulent. One instance was on this forum several years ago where the whole scam was enabled by the fact that nobody at the Land Transport Office did due diligence on a POA that had a forged signature. This was a POA that the person committing the fraud had paid a lawyer to draft; a legal document. That lawyer also didn't do due diligence on the bona fides of the scammer who was claiming ownership of car that actually belonged to her employer that she was claiming was hers so she could refinance it to get cash for her gambling habit.

 

Finally, to those arguing about their different experiences doing POA-supported dealings at land offices, this is still Thailand where no two land offices will have precisely the same rules or protocols. It's a government office, same as immigration offices and we all know that latter don't all follow the same path.

 

Good luck to the OP and I hope he does the due diligence needed.

 

the seller's lawyers has original of all documents. 

 

[flipper2222222]

52 minutes ago, Hummin said:

If land office accept contract, the legal paperwork and the signatures, sign and stamp the official papers.

 

No money under table 

 

It is legal.

 

Why you worry about later when land office approve the sale and new chanote when money is handed over.

 

my wife thinks the same as you say,  I am worried as there is a lot of money on the line.

[sungod]

1 hour ago, Peterw42 said:

NO, he cannot do that. The payment will be made out to the seller. I think you will find the land office will insist.

POA certainly doesnt grant permission to keep the sellers money, or bank it elsewhere.

The last one I sold was in my wife's name. The bankers draft was made out to me. The Land Office didnt even need to see the money change hands, my lawyer just called me and said he had hands on my draft and I said OK to proceed with the transfer. Quite painless really.

[Hummin]

5 minutes ago, flipper2222222 said:

my wife thinks the same as you say,  I am worried as there is a lot of money on the line.

Still your wife get the chanote in her hand, in her name when the payment is approved. 
 

I know guys where their wife sold their land and house without he knowing, and also took bank loan on their appartment in Bangkok, but that was theirs problem because they gave them the legal right to do so. 
 

Except she was set to sell the appartment, not recieve a bank loan. 
 

The moral of the story, they could not do anything about it afterwards. 
 

I doubt you guys risk anything, but, hey, if in doubt, you are not in doubt, and should not buy. Thats common sense, and will save you from alot of future trouble if you stick to that simple line. Especially in Thailand

[BE88]

Cancel

Edited August 13, 2022 by BE88

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

My concerns would be the following:

Daughter shows up at some future point and denies she gave the PoA to her father. 

 

If that happened, I would expect things to end up in court. How confident is the OP that this would not occur? 

I say this because I am curious as to how the PoA was obtained if the daughter is uncontactable.

 

Whether the Land Department will approve the transfer of the Chanote if checks are made out to someone other than the legal owner (daughter) may depend upon the wording of the PoA and perhaps also the procedures of that particular Land Department office. 

[KhunLA]

1 hour ago, Etaoin Shrdlu said:

Whether the Land Department will approve the transfer of the Chanote if checks are made out to someone other than the legal owner (daughter) may depend upon the wording of the PoA and perhaps also the procedures of that particular Land Department office. 

Geez ... do y'all know what a POA is ?   Here, act in my behave, and can sign my signature to whatever agreed upon.   That's all.  Simple signing to authorize sale.  People living in fear & ignorance, how do you function.

 

Land office doesn't care who gets the money or how transferred, even if transfer/paid.  They don't care.

 

Only money they care about, is if they know a foreigner is involved somewhere, w/buyer, that he/she/it, signs his/her/it's rights away, and money not from he/she/it, and he/she/it has no rights to property value/equity if sold, or at divorce settlement.  PERIOD

 

All the land office cares about is who is selling, ID of, (POA - done) and who is buying, ID of.   Nothing else.  Only concern about money is, pay the tax & xfr fee.  NEXT

[Hummin]

4 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Geez ... do y'all know what a POA is ?   Here, act in my behave, and can sign my signature to whatever agreed upon.   That's all.  Simple signing to authorize sale.  People living in fear & ignorance, how do you function.

 

Land office doesn't care who gets the money or how transferred, even if transfer/paid.  They don't care.

 

Only money they care about, is if they know a foreigner is involved somewhere, w/buyer, that he/she/it, signs his/her/it's rights away, and money not from he/she/it, and he/she/it has no rights to property value/equity if sold, or at divorce settlement.  PERIOD

 

All the land office cares about is who is selling, ID of, (POA - done) and who is buying, ID of.   Nothing else.  Only concern about money is, pay the tax & xfr fee.  NEXT

If it was soooo easy, there would not have been any trouble right? 

 

????

 

Well, I know the importance of proved payment before legalized and document of ownership changing hands! 

 

And signed copys of passports, visa, house books, proof of address, witnesses, and of course more signed copies 

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

19 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Geez ... do y'all know what a POA is ?   Here, act in my behave, and can sign my signature to whatever agreed upon.   That's all.  Simple signing to authorize sale.  People living in fear & ignorance, how do you function.

 

Land office doesn't care who gets the money or how transferred, even if transfer/paid.  They don't care.

 

Only money they care about, is if they know a foreigner is involved somewhere, w/buyer, that he/she/it, signs his/her/it's rights away, and money not from he/she/it, and he/she/it has no rights to property value/equity if sold, or at divorce settlement.  PERIOD

 

All the land office cares about is who is selling, ID of, (POA - done) and who is buying, ID of.   Nothing else.  Only concern about money is, pay the tax & xfr fee.  NEXT

I assure you, I do know what a PoA is.

 

I also know that a PoA authorizing someone to represent a seller of a property does not necessarily authorize that person to receive payment in their name in lieu of the property owner's.  What I don't know is how the Land Department would view such an arrangement. Thank you for clarifying that the Land Department does not care about such matters.

 

Even if all goes well at the Land Department, is the OP sure that the owner of the property (daughter) could/would not later raise the issue that her agent (father) did not have permission to receive the funds into his account? I think that having this spelled out in the PoA may reduce the risk of this happening.

 

 

[Peterw42]

3 hours ago, sungod said:

The last one I sold was in my wife's name. The bankers draft was made out to me. The Land Office didnt even need to see the money change hands, my lawyer just called me and said he had hands on my draft and I said OK to proceed with the transfer. Quite painless really.

Yes , but the difference being, there was no POA involved. The land office gets involved when a POA is doing the selling, to ensure the owner gets the money..

[KIngsofisaan]

To the OP, it is always good to be concerned dealing with any large money matters that occur in Thailand.

 

1. How many fathers DO NOT KNOW where their daughters are? Very, very strange. Father claims not to know where she is, yet she signed a POA? I would want to know the Australian father's personal finances? Perhaps he is broke and selling his daughters land unbeknownced to her to he can have the money stay in Thailand? Where is the daughters mother in all this?

 

2. Can any poster verify 100% FACT what happens after the sale if the POA signature is found to be forged by the father? The daughter claims she did not sign it? How did she sign it in the first place if no one knows where she is at?

 

3. No one knows the relationship between the father and daughter? 

 

4. It seems to me OP, if there is a large sum of money to be transferred, the beneficiary of receiving that money would be there to collect the money in PERSON! The daughter. 

 

Sorry to say, I would NOT be proceeding with this sale. The reason being the father is claiming the daughter gave him a signed POA, yet the father has no idea where she is. How did the father get a signed POA if he has no idea where is own daughter is?

 

I would GUESS the australian father got divorced, maybe transferred the land to the daughter to keep it away from his exwife, yet maybe now the daughter is on the mother' side and not his? He is <deleted> on and trying to use a forged POA to get the money back HE spent on the land and house?

 

If you cannot afford to lose this money, DO NOT RISK IT. This is Thailand.

 

People in Thailand expecting large amounts of money from the sale of land simply do not disappear.

 

I would NOT PROCEED UNTIL the lawyers identified where the seller (Daughter) is and verified the fact she signed this POA by speaking directly with her.

[sungod]

53 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

Yes , but the difference being, there was no POA involved. The land office gets involved when a POA is doing the selling, to ensure the owner gets the money..

Read again mate, there was a POA involved, I said the lawyer called me to say he had the draft and I told him to transfer.

 

Hence I wasnt there.

[The Hammer2021]

6 hours ago, sungod said:

Why not, how do you know the lawyer is dodgy? Do you consider all Thai lawyers dodgy?

 

Had a couple of great lawyers act for me over the years on land purchase/sales.

The statement is probably  based on hearsay, prejudice  and gossip and reality