Schools In Chiang Mai .... Aany Advice

[sk1max]

I have a five year old daughter, next year I want to send her to a good Thai school and I'm having trouble deciding. I have looked at many schools, and kind of decided on Anubaan Chiang Mai or Prince Royal College, both or these school require you to make an application and if successful you then need to dip your hand in a bag and hope you get the right colour counter to be accepted. It's about a 50/50 chance. I don't have enough money to send her to a 100,000bht. per term Inter. school and I'm a bit worried about this lotto style application. Anyone have any use advice or tips?

[p1p]

Have a look at Wichai Wittaya Bilingual school behind the Park Hotel, next to Chiang Mai Land. From KG to Grade 12, it is the next best thing to an international school in all but price.

EDIT: They have two streams, one taught in Thai, the other in English. (Except for Thai language lessons.)

The teaching staff are almost equally divided between Thai & foreign. The majority of the foreigner teachers being English. I am told that many of their English stream pupils come from other international schools, including Prem.

Contact details:

The phone number is 053 274 468 /205 146-7

Email: info(at)wichai.ac.th.

Address: 264/1 Changklan Road

[chanchao]

Is that in any way related to "Fatih" high school if that still exists?

Edit: Woops, I guess it is; same address. Fatih always struck me as a bit weird.. Was run by Turkish people with some Turkish teachers.. Not that that's weird per se of course, but still, well, weird-ish. For Chiang Mai / Thailand I mean.

Edited June 25, 2007 by chanchao

[chanchao]

Does anyone know what Grace Int'l school costs per year? (or per term, if you also specify how many terms in a year)

[sk1max]

I have a five year old daughter, next year I want to send her to a good Thai school and I'm having trouble deciding. I have looked at many schools, and kind of decided on Anubaan Chiang Mai or Prince Royal College, both or these school require you to make an application and if successful you then need to dip your hand in a bag and hope you get the right colour counter to be accepted. It's about a 50/50 chance. I don't have enough money to send her to a 100,000bht. per term Inter. school and I'm a bit worried about this lotto style application. Anyone have any use advice or tips?

Thanks for the advice, I visited the school and it does seem like a fine place but far too expensive, 20,000bht just to get in plus 30,000+++ per term. I do appreciate you taking the time to reply

[tijnebijn]

There is also Wicharawit school , my son is staying there ,many look kruengs as well. First term with some additional costs for entry etc was about 16k all together . This school is at Chang Klang road . Also Dara school (cristian) is a very good school as well , costs slightly more expensive I guess , but similar prices . Both have classes until 12th grade , wicharawit's matayom( grade 7-12) is moved next to Carrefour. I think for payable shools there are best next.

[p1p]

Does anyone know what Grace Int'l school costs per year? (or per term, if you also specify how many terms in a year)

Grace School fees: Baht

One Off Fees

Application Fee: 2,700

Entrance Fee: 48,000

Annual Fees

(Capitalisation Fee 14,000)

Kindergarten Tuition 78,000 inc Capitalisation this = 92,000

Grades 1-6 128,000 inc Capitalisation this = 142,000

Grades 7-8 140,000 inc Capitalisation this = 154,000

Grades 9-11 150,000 inc Capitalisation this = 164,000

Grade 12 156,000 inc Capitalisation this = 170,000

[tijnebijn]

Thats expensive . Normally how older they get the cheaper the fees . International probably have many more additional

contributions . For me a normal but good school will do . I do not want my children to be robots only being busy with education. I prefer them to be a child and stay like that instead of being a wizzkid , eventually they develop themselves at an older age . These fees are for Western standards even very expensive . What they can offer more ?

[Loaded]

don't send them to Grace unless you want them to learn God created the world in 6 days in science class. no kidding the idiots don't teach that the world changes over time and species have adapted and changed to suit the environment they live in.

[p1p]

don't send them to Grace unless you want them to learn God created the world in 6 days in science class. no kidding the idiots don't teach that the world changes over time and species have adapted and changed to suit the environment they live in.

You can find Grace website HERE. If you are a very strong christian, preferably an evangelical missionary in Thailand, the fees you will be charged are appreciably lower than those they quote. Many children are charged no fees at all. If you do not happen to share their faith, you will be charged full fees, if they give you a place at all.

As was stated above. They have a strong belief in Cretinism, (sic.) and abhor the Darwinian ideas of Evilution, (sic.). (Have a look at Ed Barbinski's speech on Cretinism or Evilution, given at Dragon-Con in Atlanta, June 1996, alternatively titled "There is no joy in Eden, for creationism has struck out". )

Grace School base their teaching and world view entirely on the Bible.

The following is their statement of faith, copied directly from their web site above:

1. We believe that the Bible is inspired and inerrant, that all 66 books of the Old and New Testament are God's complete written revelation to mankind, the only infallible authority in all matters of faith and practice.

2. We believe in one true God, eternally existent in three Persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, the same in substance and equal in power and glory.

3. We believe in the complete humanity and deity of our Lord Jesus Christ, in His virgin birth, sinless life, miracles, vicarious and atoning death through His shed blood on the cross, bodily resurrection, ascension to the right hand of the Father, and future personal return in power and glory.

4. We believe that the Holy Spirit indwells and empowers all believers and enables them to live a godly life.

5. We believe that through Adam's sin all have inherited a sinful nature and therefore all choose to sin. All are thus sinners and deserving of death.

6. We believe that salvation of lost and sinful man is only by the grace of God through personal faith in the Lord Jesus Christ alone, accomplished through the regeneration by the Holy Spirit.

7. We believe that our sins block our fellowship with God. As we confess those sins, God forgives us and our fellowship is restored.

8. We believe in the resurrection of the body, the judgment of the world by our Lord Jesus Christ, the eternal blessedness of the saved, and the eternal punishment of the lost.

9. We believe that saving faith in Jesus Christ unites all Christians as members of the body of Christ. Such a position brings both privileges and responsibilities before God and toward one another in the Christian life.

[Ulysses G.]

I try not to be too biased against the Christian faith, but the fact that they brainwashed me from birth into fear of an eternity in he11 makes it difficult.

Edited June 29, 2007 by Ulysses G.

[keddy]

don't send them to Grace unless you want them to learn God created the world in 6 days in science class. no kidding the idiots don't teach that the world changes over time and species have adapted and changed to suit the environment they live in.

You can find Grace website HERE. If you are a very strong christian, preferably an evangelical missionary in Thailand, the fees you will be charged are appreciably lower than those they quote. Many children are charged no fees at all. If you do not happen to share their faith, you will be charged full fees, if they give you a place at all.

As was stated above. They have a strong belief in Cretinism, (sic.) and abhor the Darwinian ideas of Evilution, (sic.). (Have a look at Ed Barbinski's speech on Cretinism or Evilution, given at Dragon-Con in Atlanta, June 1996, alternatively titled "There is no joy in Eden, for creationism has struck out". )

Grace School base their teaching and world view entirely on the Bible.

The following is their statement of faith, copied directly from their web site above:

1. We believe that the Bible is inspired and inerrant, that all 66 books of the Old and New Testament are God's complete written revelation to mankind, the only infallible authority in all matters of faith and practice.

2. We believe in one true God, eternally existent in three Persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, the same in substance and equal in power and glory.

3. We believe in the complete humanity and deity of our Lord Jesus Christ, in His virgin birth, sinless life, miracles, vicarious and atoning death through His shed blood on the cross, bodily resurrection, ascension to the right hand of the Father, and future personal return in power and glory.

4. We believe that the Holy Spirit indwells and empowers all believers and enables them to live a godly life.

5. We believe that through Adam's sin all have inherited a sinful nature and therefore all choose to sin. All are thus sinners and deserving of death.

6. We believe that salvation of lost and sinful man is only by the grace of God through personal faith in the Lord Jesus Christ alone, accomplished through the regeneration by the Holy Spirit.

7. We believe that our sins block our fellowship with God. As we confess those sins, God forgives us and our fellowship is restored.

8. We believe in the resurrection of the body, the judgment of the world by our Lord Jesus Christ, the eternal blessedness of the saved, and the eternal punishment of the lost.

9. We believe that saving faith in Jesus Christ unites all Christians as members of the body of Christ. Such a position brings both privileges and responsibilities before God and toward one another in the Christian life.

10. We believe in the making of large amounts of money and the great American maxim that it is business as usual and don't give a sucker an even break .

[jomama]

What's interesting about Grace is that their teachers are sponsored by their home "missions" to the tune of as least $20,000 a year salary, which ain't bad in Chiang Mai. They live in nice homes and drive nice cars. So Grace does not pay them a salary. Yet their "mission" is to spread the word, but if you're not already part of the "word" you pay full price. Shouldn't they be offering the heathen a cheap education so they can spread the word instead of coddling the already converted?

Strange. Little bit of disconnect there.

That said, the administrators and teachers are true licensed professionals, not like some guy who likes boys and managed to hang on and call himself an educator.

The place is strict, the teachers are pros and there are lots of white kids there. Appealing for the Thai rich. Mostly the white kid part. There's a long waiting list to get in.

[keddy]

What's interesting about Grace is that their teachers are sponsored by their home "missions" to the tune of as least $20,000 a year salary, which ain't bad in Chiang Mai. They live in nice homes and drive nice cars. So Grace does not pay them a salary. Yet their "mission" is to spread the word, but if you're not already part of the "word" you pay full price. Shouldn't they be offering the heathen a cheap education so they can spread the word instead of coddling the already converted?

Strange. Little bit of disconnect there.

That said, the administrators and teachers are true licensed professionals, not like some guy who likes boys and managed to hang on and call himself an educator.

The place is strict, the teachers are pros and there are lots of white kids there. Appealing for the Thai rich. Mostly the white kid part. There's a long waiting list to get in.

Yes it's amazing what a lot of the Thai middle classes buy into. Maybe it just shows how awful the state education system is with their huge classes and impoverished teachers. Schools like Grace are a poor alternative if you haven't got the money for the international schools and cannot get into the handful of decent govt schools. Maybe it's a good thing to get a social education in any local government school and then take time with a lot of tuition and private teachers at home. Good luck I've got to face a similar decision in 2 years time

[jackr]

Have a look at Wichai Wittaya Bilingual school behind the Park Hotel, next to Chiang Mai Land. From KG to Grade 12, it is the next best thing to an international school in all but price.

EDIT: They have two streams, one taught in Thai, the other in English. (Except for Thai language lessons.)

The teaching staff are almost equally divided between Thai & foreign. The majority of the foreigner teachers being English. I am told that many of their English stream pupils come from other international schools, including Prem.

Contact details:

The phone number is 053 274 468 /205 146-7

Email: info(at)wichai.ac.th.

Address: 264/1 Changklan Road

Any idea how much, p1p? Sports, music facilities etc?

I'll have a nose when I'm in the area.

Cheers

[lannarebirth]

I try not to be too biased against the Christian faith, but the fact that they brainwashed me from birth into fear of an eternity in he11 makes it difficult.

I got a 12 year Catholic education, including a Jesuit high school. The education was good enough that it allowed me to see through all that crap. I carry zero baggage from it, save for a good education. There are lots of good Christian educators and others doing lots of other good works. I can't knock'em. but that doesn't mean I have to believe everything they believe. If there were Catholic schools here of the caliber I attended, and I were the sole decision maker, I'd probably send my children there.

[cmsoulbrother]

I send my neice to Wichai Wittaya, and I've been very impressed by the school. She is doing far better than she was when she was in a regular Thai school, and they seem to run a fairly student centered program and encourage actual thinking.

The school has a very good feel to it, and I would reccomend it.

That being said, I'm probably not going to send my other two children there. They are native English speakers, and I beleive that wichai spends a lot of necessary time on the nuts and bolts of general English abilities. I'm not sure that this makes it a great fit for kids who can already speak English. It's too bad though, because at 30 000 a term, it's a lot cheaper than the alternatives.

I have no idea as to where I will send my kids, although a recent thread on this forum seems to indicate that CMS is a good choice.

[siam-i-am]

don't send them to Grace unless you want them to learn God created the world in 6 days in science class. no kidding the idiots don't teach that the world changes over time and species have adapted and changed to suit the environment they live in.

On the sixth day he said let there be light Clever bugger did all that work in the dark!

[Tywais]

Did the mod die? this thread is in the dumpster.

Come on guys, let's put it back on topic. And in case you've forgotten it's "Schools In Chiang Mai .... Aany Advice, Scool Help"

[jomama]

Did the mod die? this thread is in the dumpster.

Come on guys, let's put it back on topic. And in case you've forgotten it's "Schools In Chiang Mai .... Aany Advice, Scool Help"

Sorry about that, but threads, like rivers, kind of go where they need to. I could have PM'd UG, but I thought this information should be out in public.

OK, back on subject:

My ranking (after 15 years of involvement ) of international schools, based on cost-benefit ratios:

1. CMIS -- Long tradition (it was the second international school founded in all of Thailand). Strong community involvement, good teachers.

2. Grace -- The word of God maybe, but also truly qualified and dedicated teachers and administrators. Run according to Western standards.

3. Prem -- Very expensive, but has the prestige due to its IB program that might get a kid into Harvard if he's that smart. Whether the teaching standards are that much better is open to serious debate.

Then the commercial schools:

NIS -- Good teachers, but run in a Thai management model (fill in the blanks).

Lanna -- Same as above.

APIS -- Part of a resort scheme. Boarding school with many rich Bangkok kids who were gettin' a little on the wild side, so they got sent to the mountains in the north.

[keddy]

Did the mod die? this thread is in the dumpster.

Come on guys, let's put it back on topic. And in case you've forgotten it's "Schools In Chiang Mai .... Aany Advice, Scool Help"

Sorry about that, but threads, like rivers, kind of go where they need to. I could have PM'd UG, but I thought this information should be out in public.

OK, back on subject:

My ranking (after 15 years of involvement ) of international schools, based on cost-benefit ratios:

1. CMIS -- Long tradition (it was the second international school founded in all of Thailand). Strong community involvement, good teachers.

2. Grace -- The word of God maybe, but also truly qualified and dedicated teachers and administrators. Run according to Western standards.

3. Prem -- Very expensive, but has the prestige due to its IB program that might get a kid into Harvard if he's that smart. Whether the teaching standards are that much better is open to serious debate.

Then the commercial schools:

NIS -- Good teachers, but run in a Thai management model (fill in the blanks).

Lanna -- Same as above.

APIS -- Part of a resort scheme. Boarding school with many rich Bangkok kids who were gettin' a little on the wild side, so they got sent to the mountains in the north.

It's not such a bad idea to send a kid to a school which has a range of different social backgrounds. Obviously it's good to see how others from different backgrounds live but there are probably fewer indulged rich kids and therefore a more enjoyable experience. Also the kid will be better adjusted socially to cope with a range of social classes in Thailand and feel more part of society. It might also have some Buddhist teaching which gives a useful grounding in the spiritual journey. However there is a concern about the academic standards of many government schools though it's possible to have some private tuition to make up any shortcomings.

[Norman d'Plume]

My ranking (after 15 years of involvement ) of international schools, based on cost-benefit ratios:

1. CMIS -- Long tradition (it was the second international school founded in all of Thailand). Strong community involvement, good teachers.

However you should not discount the strong Christian missionary element at CMIS. It's primary aim is still to provide schooling to children of missionary families.

I decided against sending my children there after an extended discussion with one of their teachers about the evils of Darwin's unproven theory, which ignores God's immutable teachings.

2. Grace -- The word of God maybe, but also truly qualified and dedicated teachers and administrators. Run according to Western standards.

Grace, I'm afraid, I regard as little more than a brain washing institution. One of the contractual obligations, as detailed in the web-site, is to evangelise and convert pupils to their particular brand of extremely fundamental christianity. If you are not a member of their sect, you are not made welcome.

3. Prem -- Very expensive, but has the prestige due to its IB program that might get a kid into Harvard if he's that smart. Whether the teaching standards are that much better is open to serious debate.

Many pupils are being moved away from Prem because of perceived social problems. Prem students seem to have adopted a "holier-than-thou" attitude which many others find grating. Their arrogance is becoming highly unpopular in other circles.

NIS -- Good teachers, but run in a Thai management model (fill in the blanks).

NIS pupils are often regarded as having a chip on their shoulders, being unable to qualify for, or afford, Prem. This has sometimes led to trouble with pupils from other schools. Note the infamous fight on the football field a couple of years ago.

Lanna -- Same as above.

Lanna is a school on the way down. They have a revolving, open-door policy, accepting, without question, pupils other schools find unacceptable - as long as they have the money to pay. The Thai management run the school as a cash cow, constantly complaining they are losing money, while buying ever more property for personal use.

They recently expelled two pupils and instigated a 2 Million Baht defamation suit, because the parents had the nerve to suggest the food served was unhealthy for the children and was a cause of ill-health and learning difficulties amongst the students.

APIS -- Part of a resort scheme. Boarding school with many rich Bangkok kids who were gettin' a little on the wild side, so they got sent to the mountains in the north.

Start your child's day by giving them a dose of motion sickness. The drive up the mountain to APIS guarantees an interesting start to the day. APIS are known for having difficulties with pupils from other schools, particularly NIS.

Edited July 1, 2007 by Norman d'Plume

[cmsoulbrother]

Keddy,

I'd be careful with a government school.

I don't generally like to comment on the "negatives" of Thai society, but I do feel that Thai schools are very poor. I am sure there are many commited and talented educators working in Thai government schools, but with 40-50 kids in a classroom, they really have no possible chance to do a good job. Additionally, all of the learning (probably partially due to these large class sizes) seems to be done through rote repetiton and memorization.

We moved our neice to a different school for a number of reasons. She was not a dedicated student, prefered to talk with her friends than do her work, and she had no problem getting away with this in her large class room. She is a very bright kid, but didn't seem to be at all interested in what she was learning at school.

When we tried to move her out, she had to take admission tests for other schools, and did very badly on these tests. She simply wasn't learning very much of anything. This was partially her own fault, but then she was only 7, and how much responsibility can a young child really be required to take for their own academic performace. The attitude at her school seemed to be that if she wasn't interested in doing her work, then they weren't interested in her.

We eventually moved her to Wichai, which we thought was the best option for the money. Probably not as good as any of the international schools, but at 30 000 a term, a lot cheaper. She is now doing much better, and you can really see the difference.

I remember on her first day at Wichai, she was sent home with some homework in the vein of "what is your opinion on the character in the story we read"; and she had no idea what to do. She really had a difficult time with this type of work. She had never before been asked to actually think in all of the years in her previous school. It sounds silly, but getting her used to thinking for herself was probably the toughest transition into the new school.

While obviously learning the fundamentals is important, and everyone needs to learn to read and write, to do math etc., I think that learning how to think, to problem solve and be creative is the far more important requirment for an education. I am not sure that a couple of hours of private tuition will compensate for 8 hours a day of weak education.

Good luck, I know it's not an easy decision, and I recognize that your points about the positive social integration aspects of a regular school are also valid.

[lamphun]

NIS -- Good teachers, but run in a Thai management model (fill in the blanks).

NIS pupils are often regarded as having a chip on their shoulders, being unable to qualify for, or afford, Prem. This has sometimes led to trouble with pupils from other schools. Note the infamous fight on the football field a couple of years ago.

APIS are known for having difficulties with pupils from other schools, particularly NIS.

What a load of rubbish.

As you know doubt know the fight at the football match involved two pupils from APIS and NIS and was followed up by death threats from the APIS Phys Ed. teacher to all and sundry. I know of no other trouble with other schools.

My children have been at NIS for a number of years and no they are not Prem rejects. Children ejected from NIS due to poor academic performance often end up at Prem.

I can only surmise that your slander is due to some personal problem you have with the management at NIS.

[jomama]

What a load of rubbish.

As you know doubt know the fight at the football match involved two pupils from APIS and NIS and was followed up by death threats from the APIS Phys Ed. teacher to all and sundry. I know of no other trouble with other schools.

That is accurate. Some kid from APIS who was over 18 years old and covered with tatoos started the fight. The NIS kids ended it and the APIS student needed dental surgery. NIS has a fine PE teacher and the players behave themselves very well in sports. The death threat was indeed made at the time -- he said "do you know who these students parents are -- bullets are cheap in Thailand." I believe he was Iranian.

Edited July 1, 2007 by jomama

[keddy]

Keddy,

I'd be careful with a government school.

I don't generally like to comment on the "negatives" of Thai society, but I do feel that Thai schools are very poor. I am sure there are many commited and talented educators working in Thai government schools, but with 40-50 kids in a classroom, they really have no possible chance to do a good job. Additionally, all of the learning (probably partially due to these large class sizes) seems to be done through rote repetiton and memorization.

We moved our neice to a different school for a number of reasons. She was not a dedicated student, prefered to talk with her friends than do her work, and she had no problem getting away with this in her large class room. She is a very bright kid, but didn't seem to be at all interested in what she was learning at school.

When we tried to move her out, she had to take admission tests for other schools, and did very badly on these tests. She simply wasn't learning very much of anything. This was partially her own fault, but then she was only 7, and how much responsibility can a young child really be required to take for their own academic performace. The attitude at her school seemed to be that if she wasn't interested in doing her work, then they weren't interested in her.

We eventually moved her to Wichai, which we thought was the best option for the money. Probably not as good as any of the international schools, but at 30 000 a term, a lot cheaper. She is now doing much better, and you can really see the difference.

I remember on her first day at Wichai, she was sent home with some homework in the vein of "what is your opinion on the character in the story we read"; and she had no idea what to do. She really had a difficult time with this type of work. She had never before been asked to actually think in all of the years in her previous school. It sounds silly, but getting her used to thinking for herself was probably the toughest transition into the new school.

While obviously learning the fundamentals is important, and everyone needs to learn to read and write, to do math etc., I think that learning how to think, to problem solve and be creative is the far more important requirment for an education. I am not sure that a couple of hours of private tuition will compensate for 8 hours a day of weak education.

Good luck, I know it's not an easy decision, and I recognize that your points about the positive social integration aspects of a regular school are also valid.

Thanks for the comments. It sounds like a good solution for your niece and I agree with the need to encourage creativity in education. However at the moment I'm not going to write off all government schools yet. I understand some have English programmes, others have better resources than others etc. The most important thing is really the self-motivation that will be needed in any kind of education, especially in big classes. Even some of the private schools have large class sizes. So far she's interested in looking at books and has a spark to find out how things work so hopefully she'll keep that zest for learning later on. What I don't want is a class full of spoilt rich kids with their mobiles, sugar habits and short attention spans.

[coldcrush]

The posts are very conflicting an d confusing? So what International school does not brainwash with religion and gives children a good education in Chiang Mai, as you all cannot seem to agree on this...

Clarification would be nice.

Thanks CC

[PeaceBlondie]

The posts are very conflicting an d confusing? So what International school does not brainwash with religion and gives children a good education in Chiang Mai, as you all cannot seem to agree on this...

Clarification would be nice.

Thanks CC

Yes, clear cut clarification would be great, but this reminds me of the arguments over which TEFL school is best. Nobody's been to all of them; nobody has a statistically valid sample. A fistfight and a death threat do not define either campus; most students don't get car-sick going up a mountain. Even the most fervent evangelicals cannot convert some students; they're not that smart, usually. A friend of mine is an ESL tutor and has students at three of the schools, but she can't draw conclusions based on those few examples.

If you can afford CMIS or Prem, maybe you should follow the money. If all that matters is spreading the gospel, there's Grace. If you don't mind a school owned by Muslims, Wichai Wittayi (sp?) is good. They won't suddenly become good Buddhists if you put them in a Thai school, either.

[keddy]

The posts are very conflicting an d confusing? So what International school does not brainwash with religion and gives children a good education in Chiang Mai, as you all cannot seem to agree on this...

Clarification would be nice.

Thanks CC

Yes, clear cut clarification would be great, but this reminds me of the arguments over which TEFL school is best. Nobody's been to all of them; nobody has a statistically valid sample. A fistfight and a death threat do not define either campus; most students don't get car-sick going up a mountain. Even the most fervent evangelicals cannot convert some students; they're not that smart, usually. A friend of mine is an ESL tutor and has students at three of the schools, but she can't draw conclusions based on those few examples.

If you can afford CMIS or Prem, maybe you should follow the money. If all that matters is spreading the gospel, there's Grace. If you don't mind a school owned by Muslims, Wichai Wittayi (sp?) is good. They won't suddenly become good Buddhists if you put them in a Thai school, either.

If the classes are too large they will certainly become aquainted with the first noble truth in government schools. Seriously though I want my kids to know the country they were born in and there's more chance of that happening in a government school than an International school, especially one with the albatross of the Judeo-Christian tradition being carried in the curriculum. Most of all I want them to have fun and remember their time in school with fondness not as a hothouse to produce serious little business people.

[Ulysses G.]

Most of all I want them to have fun and remember their time in school with fondness not as a hothouse to produce serious little business people.

I've never been able to think of school as anything but a brainwashing factory with a little practical learning thrown in to justify the whole dreary experience. Almost everything worthwhile that I learned was from reading books on my own.

Glad that sh*t's over!