Help! My Husband Wasn't Able To Get A Visa Extension In Chaing Mai

[sbathon]

Ref. sbathon post re: couple applying for retirement visa on the basis of annuity income of one person.

Perhaps I didn't provide enough information, but my husband wasn't able to get the initial 90 day non-immigrant O.

We are a US retired couple who had retirement visas. My husband's retirement visa expired while we were out of the country, so he came in on a 30 day arrival visa. My retirement visa will expire in 28 days. We applied together for extensions for 1 year retirement visas. My application was no problem. I have a Thai bank account with a small balance and certified sufficient monthly annuity. The immigration officer rejected my husband's, which was based on my annuity and our joint Thai account. He said my husband needed to apply with his own annuity and/or his own bank account combination which would be sufficient to comply with the individual requirements.

This doesn't seem right. I understand that he has to have a Thai bank account in his own name when applying for an initial non-imm O. (I had that requirement last year when I applied for an O from a 30 day tourist visa. When I went back to request the extention from the initial 90 day O, I didn't need my own bank account; a joint account with my husband was OK. )

What I don't understand why he has to have his own income. If we're married, shouldn't one income that meets the requirement be sufficient? The problem for us is that he has no annuity income and we don't have 800,000 baht in Thailand at this time to transfer to a single account for him. We could transfer the money from our account in the US, but then he'll have to wait for the 90 day holding period, and make visa run(s). I think the officer was telling us that my husband was being treated this way because he was currently on a tourist visa, not extending a current retirement visa. Does this make sense?

Can anyone give us advice on what we can do to avoid having to leave the country to get my husband's 30 day visa extended to the initial O non-imm?

[lopburi3]

Your husband can not obtain a retirement extension of stay without meeting the conditions. He does not.

Explain he wants to use section 7.19 of National Police Order 606/2006 for his extension of stay (as member of your family) (you are using section 7.21 for retirement).

Links to the order are in pinned item at the top of this forum.

[sbathon]

Your husband can not obtain a retirement extension of stay without meeting the conditions. He does not.

Explain he wants to use section 7.19 of National Police Order 606/2006 for his extension of stay (as member of your family) (you are using section 7.21 for retirement).

Links to the order are in pinned item at the top of this forum.

Lopburi3, thanks so much for the information. Section 7.19 only references family members of Thai nationals? I'm a US citizen - does it still apply?

[lopburi3]

This is 7.19 and it is about foreign families in Thailand.

7.19 In case of being the

member of family of the

foreigner who is permitted

to stay temporarily in the

Kingdom pursuant to the

Criterion No. 7.1, 7.2, 7.4,

7.5, 7.6, 7.9, 7.11, 7.12,

7.13, 7.14, 7.15, 7.16, 7.20,

7.21, 7.25 or 7.28 of this

Order (Only for Father,

mother, marriage couple,

ordinary child, adopted

child or a child of the

marriage couple)

[sbathon]

Also, I'd like to get another clarification for future referenc: When we both have retirement visas and apply for an extension next year, do we individually need to meet the requirements?

lopburi3, you are so helpful to all of us. Thank you.

[lopburi3]

As I said your husband does not qualify for a retirement extension of stay (it is not a visa) and unless he puts 800k baht into his own bank account will not qualify next year any more than he does this year. But that does not matter as long as you are married to him and agree that he is your husband. He can obtain matching extension of stay to yours on the basis of order 7.19

You obtain extension of stay for retirement under section 7.21 - five minutes later he obtains extension of stay under 7.19 using below

1. Application form

2. Copy of passport of the applicant

3. Copy of passport of the foreigner

who is granted permission to stay in

Thailand.

4. Copy of documents showing the

relationship such as the evidence of

marriage, copy of birth certificate,

evidence of the registration of

ordinary child adoption, certificate of

the registration of adopted child

adoption or other papers issued by

other related government

sectors/organizations.

[sbathon]

As I said your husband does not qualify for a retirement extension of stay (it is not a visa) and unless he puts 800k baht into his own bank account will not qualify next year any more than he does this year. But that does not matter as long as you are married to him and agree that he is your husband. He can obtain matching extension of stay to yours on the basis of order 7.19

You obtain extension of stay for retirement under section 7.21 - five minutes later he obtains extension of stay under 7.19 using below

1. Application form

2. Copy of passport of the applicant

3. Copy of passport of the foreigner

who is granted permission to stay in

Thailand.

4. Copy of documents showing the

relationship such as the evidence of

marriage, copy of birth certificate,

evidence of the registration of

ordinary child adoption, certificate of

the registration of adopted child

adoption or other papers issued by

other related government

sectors/organizations.

Thanks so much! We have a copy of a certified copy of our marriage license. I took it to US Consulate and they wouldn't stamp it, but I did a notorized statement of our marriage and stated that the attached copy was a valid copy. Will this work for Thai immigration?

[kelvinj]

I have taken the following excerpt from the website of the Thai consulate in the UK, it is intended for UK citizens but I can't see why it should be different for US citizens, so if you both want the full O-A category, you must individually meet the financial reqirements, if you cannot, one of you is going to be doing visa runs.

This is the link to the Visa section, hope it helps;

http://www.thaiconsul-uk.com/visas1.asp

In the case of wishing to be accompanied by spouse, the marriage certificate must be attached. The spouse will

be granted a Non–Immigrant “O”, instead of “O-A”, and will be subject to the regulations applying to the “O” visa

including having to exit Thailand every ninety days. If the spouse wishes to be granted the “O-A” visa they must

be aged 50 and over and must submit a separate application together with copy bank statement(s) showing they

have the equivalent of at least Baht 800,000 or an income of at least Baht 65,000 separate from their spouse.

They must also submit a criminal record and medical record in their own name.

[Lite Beer]

I have taken the following excerpt from the website of the Thai consulate in the UK, it is intended for UK citizens but I can't see why it should be different for US citizens, so if you both want the full O-A category, you must individually meet the financial reqirements, if you cannot, one of you is going to be doing visa runs.

This is the link to the Visa section, hope it helps;

http://www.thaiconsul-uk.com/visas1.asp

In the case of wishing to be accompanied by spouse, the marriage certificate must be attached. The spouse will

be granted a Non–Immigrant “O”, instead of “O-A”, and will be subject to the regulations applying to the “O” visa

including having to exit Thailand every ninety days. If the spouse wishes to be granted the “O-A” visa they must

be aged 50 and over and must submit a separate application together with copy bank statement(s) showing they

have the equivalent of at least Baht 800,000 or an income of at least Baht 65,000 separate from their spouse.

They must also submit a criminal record and medical record in their own name.

sbathon, disregard all the above.

You can rely on Lopburi`s information. He is 100% correct as usual.

[lopburi3]

As said we are not talking about O-A visas obtained from an Embassy - that is an entirely different process.

If they can not accept your marriage certificate as is the only extra step(s) (I don't believe a translations should be required) would be a short visit to MFA (next to the Thai Passport Office) to legalize the paperwork you currently have. I don't know if that will be required or not (normally such actions are more likely when non English documents/translations are needed).

[sbathon]

Thanks for the info on the marriage certificate. Now I am confused about what my husband will be applying for and where? At the usualy

CM immigration office? What do we exactly apply for?

Edited June 26, 2007 by sbathon

[lopburi3]

He is applying for a one year extension of stay to match your one year retirement extension of stay based on being your husband (marriage) using section 7.19 of the current immigration police order. It can be done where you obtained your extension (I assume Chiang Mai as you just mentioned it).

//edit: to do this he will have to have a non immigrant O visa so if Chiang Mai can not convert his present status if will require a trip to a Consulate to obtain and enter using that and then do the extension later. ((thought I have posted that but appears to have gone astray or my eyes are getting too tired.))

[sbathon]

Chiang Mai Immigration says he has to meet the extended retirement stay requirements (800k baht, etc.) in order to get a non-imm. 0, so that can't work for us. They are applying the same standards for the O and then the retirement extension. That's the problem. Are other offices giving the 0 using other criteria?

Edited June 26, 2007 by sbathon

[lopburi3]

Are you sure Chiang Mai understands what you want? You started this thread by saying you wanted a retirement extension for him and I suspect they are acting on that. You do not want a retirement extension for him. Below is the requirements that they may be able to use according to immigration website (not updated for a long time but believe still in use). If they can not do go to a Consulate and have him obtain there. But be sure you obtain a re-entry permit before you leave Thailand.

O) TO FULFILL THE DUTY OR RESPONSIBILITY AS AN IMMEDIATE MEMBER OF A FOREIGN FAMILY IN THAILAND.

In case of overstaying in Thailand, application could not be submitted.

Application for Visa Status Alteration. (TM.86)

Application for visa. (TM.87)

Copy to passport entries.

4 X 6 cm. Photograph.

Application fee of 2,000 baht.

5.1 Documents proving that the applicant is the spouse, father or mother or child of foreigner ; a marriage certificate or birth certificate, as the case may be. (Certifying by Embassy or Consulate and Ministry of Foreign Affairs.)

[sbathon]

Yes, I agree that I was confused on what to ask for. As I understand it now, after I get my O extended for another year, I can submit documents you cited to get a change for him from a visa-on-arrival to an non-imm O on the basis of our marriage? Is this commonly done? We had a discussion with the immigration officer about how to accomplish an extension of his stay and he did not suggest this option. He said he would have to leave the country to get an extension and then apply for the O when he returned and had all the income requirements in place. Why is this so hard? There is so much conflicting information out there.

[JimGant]

Kelvinj is not intentionally being misleading. It's the Hull webpage he refers to that is very curious. (Here it is again: http://www.thaiconsul-uk.com/visas1.asp )

Hull, always creative, has now redefined what a Non Imm O-A visa is. Heretofore, an O-A retirement visa could only be obtained outside Thailand. This is still the case, but Hull now advertises its requirements for obtaining an "O-A" visa -- when the reality is, it is only stipulating what requirements are needed to obtain a Non Imm O visa that will pass the extension for retirement requirements at Thai Immigration.

This is not too shabby. Why shouldn't you be granted a Non Imm O visa if you intend to retire in Thailand -- and meet all the requirements as put forth by Thai Immigration. However, many Embassies/Consulates won't grant Non Imm O's for 'intend to retire' purposes. So, hail Hull.

But they (Hull) also fold in O-A requirements that Thai Immigration won't ask for when you apply for extension:

2.5 Criminal Record – you need to contact your UK Area Police Force and request a

“Subject Access Report”. Please be aware that it can take up to 40 days for it to be

issued. Furthermore, please note it must be submitted to the Thai authorities within

three months of date of issue.

Thai Immigration won't ask for a criminal record. This is an MFA requirement for an O-A visa, which Thai Immigration doesn't ascribe to 'retirement extension of stay.' Pity two branches of government can't have the same sheet of music, but, hey, rice bowls are different. And Hull, projecting MFA requirements into Immigration requirements, creates confusion over actual requirements.

And it's not quite clear from Hull's website whether or not they even want to see your supporting documentation, including police report -- or just want you to attest that you have all the documentation set forth as required to obtain an "O-A visa" in Thailand (again, a misnomer).

Anyway, what does seem clear -- if that is possible -- is that an actual "O-A" obtained at a Thai Embassy is NOT the way to go for a two-farang married couple planning to retire in Thailand.

[Lite Beer]

Yes, I agree that I was confused on what to ask for. As I understand it now, after I get my O extended for another year, I can submit documents you cited to get a change for him from a visa-on-arrival to an non-imm O on the basis of our marriage? Is this commonly done? We had a discussion with the immigration officer about how to accomplish an extension of his stay and he did not suggest this option. He said he would have to leave the country to get an extension and then apply for the O when he returned and had all the income requirements in place. Why is this so hard? There is so much conflicting information out there.

If Chiang Mai do not understand what you want why dont you get a cheap Air Asia flight to Bangkok and have a word with immigration there. I am sure they will understand the regulations.

Only a thought.

[sbathon]

According to Sunbelt, a visa-on-arrival cannot be converted to a Non-immigrant O within the country based on being a dependant.

If you obtain a Non-imm O outside the country, then you can get an extension in country based on being a dependant.

Anyone have any other experience in Bangkok Immigration?

Chiang Mai Immigration says they can change a visa-on-arrival to a non-immigrant 0 only for retirement purposes and the applicant must meet all requirements for retirement visa exentions. They cannot do it based on being a dependant.

[Lite Beer]

According to Sunbelt, a visa-on-arrival cannot be converted to a Non-immigrant O within the country based on being a dependant.

If you obtain a Non-imm O outside the country, then you can get an extension in country based on being a dependant.

Anyone have any other experience in Bangkok Immigration?

Chiang Mai Immigration says they can change a visa-on-arrival to a non-immigrant 0 only for retirement purposes and the applicant must meet all requirements for retirement visa exentions. They cannot do it based on being a dependant.

Why not go to an Embassy in the region and get a single non o , then it can be extended in Chiang Mai.

[sbathon]

According to Sunbelt, a visa-on-arrival cannot be converted to a Non-immigrant O within the country based on being a dependant.

If you obtain a Non-imm O outside the country, then you can get an extension in country based on being a dependant.

Anyone have any other experience in Bangkok Immigration?

Chiang Mai Immigration says they can change a visa-on-arrival to a non-immigrant 0 only for retirement purposes and the applicant must meet all requirements for retirement visa exentions. They cannot do it based on being a dependant.

Why not go to an Embassy in the region and get a single non o , then it can be extended in Chiang Mai.

Why? Because it's expensive. I want to get one in Bangkok if it's possible, but no one seems to know and BKK Immigrations telephone line is out.

[lopburi3]

If Sunbelt already advised immigration will not convert for dependent I am sure that is also the case in Bangkok or they would have told you otherwise. A trip to Vientiane should not be that expensive; or you could probably find cheap flights to Malaysia or Singapore (although that can be expensive for hotels).

If you want to talk with Immigration call 1111 and ask for Immigration.

[sbathon]

If Sunbelt already advised immigration will not convert for dependent I am sure that is also the case in Bangkok or they would have told you otherwise. A trip to Vientiane should not be that expensive; or you could probably find cheap flights to Malaysia or Singapore (although that can be expensive for hotels).

I guess I'll have to do that. RE Sunbelt They said immigration would not convert for any reason. That is incorrect, as CM Immigration will convert if you're going for a retirement extension. They also said that BKK immigration might convert for dependent. That's the tantalizing part. If BKK immigration would, we could just go to BKK. I can't reach them on the phone but will post of they tell me they will convert.

[pwllgrgn]

As I said your husband does not qualify for a retirement extension of stay (it is not a visa) and unless he puts 800k baht into his own bank account will not qualify next year any more than he does this year. But that does not matter as long as you are married to him and agree that he is your husband. He can obtain matching extension of stay to yours on the basis of order 7.19

You obtain extension of stay for retirement under section 7.21 - five minutes later he obtains extension of stay under 7.19 using below

1. Application form

2. Copy of passport of the applicant

3. Copy of passport of the foreigner

who is granted permission to stay in

Thailand.

4. Copy of documents showing the

relationship such as the evidence of

marriage, copy of birth certificate,

evidence of the registration of

ordinary child adoption, certificate of

the registration of adopted child

adoption or other papers issued by

other related government

sectors/organizations.

Can I just ask, does the person applying for the extension on the grounds of being a dependent not have to complete a form TM7

[lopburi3]

TM.7 = Application form

[pwllgrgn]

Hello

I know the TM7 is an application form, and I may be being thick but would a person applying for an extension on the grounds of being a dependent have to fill one in.

Thanks

[lopburi3]

Did not miss it in post #23 quote

1. Application form

[JimGant]

A trip to Vientiane should not be that expensive; or you could probably find cheap flights to Malaysia or Singapore (although that can be expensive for hotels).

Rationale for obtaining a Non Imm O in adjacent countries might not work, as being "married to a farang" (even one with a valid extension) is not quite the same as "being married to a Thai," which seems to be the only criteria that is getting Non Imm O's these days. Certainly a grey area, which seems to have Immigration perplexed -- I can only imagine how MFA might look at this.....

We are a US retired couple who had retirement visas. My husband's retirement visa expired while we were out of the country,

Hmmm. By "retirement visa," do you mean you both had Non Imm 'O-A' visas -- the only kind that fit that definition -- with one based on O-A dependency criteria? If not, then you must have had Non Imm O's, which were extended based on retirement and dependency, hence your so-called "retirement visas" (a misnomer). In any case, you're caught in a real Catch-22 situation, worst case is a return to the States to begin again where you once began.

(Also, if the first situation above applies, i.e., you both had O-A's, then Hull's website's stating both need to meet the financial requirement is out-of-sorts with at least one other consulate/embassy -- which, of course is business as usual.

[lopburi3]

You obtain a non immigrant O visa to visit family in Thailand - the wife lives in Thailand, or so it seems, so the husband can obtain a visa to visit her. The family does not have to be Thai.

[pwllgrgn]

Did not miss it in post #23 quote

1. Application form

Please accept my apologies, I think that I need new glasses

[JimGant]

You obtain a non immigrant O visa to visit family in Thailand - the wife lives in Thailand, or so it seems, so the husband can obtain a visa to visit her. The family does not have to be Thai.

Ok. But not a whole lot of ground plowed here, so I wouldn't bet the farm that a visa clerk, used to seeing a marriage certificate plus Thai ID card, wouldn't hiccup at seeing a marriage certificate with two farang names, plus in lieu of a Thai ID, an extension of stay stamp....

Interesting soap opera. Another recent thread by sbathon has her asking advice about converting a tourist visa to a Non Imm O. Planning ahead, maybe. Which, in their situation, is prudent.

Lop, what's your take on Hull's "Application for an O-A Visa?" http://www.thaiconsul-uk.com/visas1.asp

Definitely they're not issuing actual O-A visas, which would stamp you in for one year, but are greasing the skids to enable extending the Non Imm O in Thailand. Not very helpful in the definition department by now equating O-A visas with in-country extensions. Also, wonder what they do with those in-triplicate O-A application forms? Who knows, maybe they're ahead of the pack with an MFA-sanctioned new justification of Non-Imm O issue.