Liz Truss: What the world is saying about UK turmoil

[Mac Mickmanus]

4 minutes ago, RayC said:

Eastern Europe may be more prosperous but the problems in certain sectors of the UK labour market have been increased by the withdrawal of freedom of movement.

Yes, there are now more jobs now available for British people , young British school leavers now have job opportunities , a constant stream of cheap E.E labour is no longer an option for employers offering unfavourable conditions 

[RayC]

48 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Yes, there are now more jobs now available for British people , young British school leavers now have job opportunities , a constant stream of cheap E.E labour is no longer an option for employers offering unfavourable condition

Nice theory but the practical outcome is different: There are still labour shortages in certain industries such as aviation and hospitality, which suggests that either there are not enough Brits - young or otherwise - and/or that Brits are unwilling/ unable to work in these industries.

 

There needs to be flexibility in the labour market and the withdrawal of freedom of movement for EU citizens reduces it.

[Mac Mickmanus]

3 minutes ago, RayC said:

Nice theory but the practical outcome is different: There are still labour shortages in certain industries such as aviation and hospitality, which suggests that either there are not enough Brits - young or otherwise - and/or that Brits are unwilling/ unable to work in these industries.

 

There needs to be flexibility in the labour market and the withdrawal of freedom of movement for EU citizens reduces it.

Have you forgotten WE make the rules , do you still think that we are in the E.U and you tell us what to do ?

   The U.K Gov has taken measures to give visas to people who can fill the labour shortage 

[Chomper Higgot]

1 hour ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Yes, there are now more jobs now available for British people , young British school leavers now have job opportunities , a constant stream of cheap E.E labour is no longer an option for employers offering unfavourable conditions 

EE workers are not cheap.

 

The Indian workers the Tories plan to replace them with will be a lot cheaper.

[Mac Mickmanus]

2 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

EE workers are not cheap.

 

The Indian workers the Tories plan to replace them with will be a lot cheaper.

Aren't they both Governed by the same employment laws and minimum wages and things like that ?

[vinny41]

24 minutes ago, RayC said:

Nice theory but the practical outcome is different: There are still labour shortages in certain industries such as aviation and hospitality, which suggests that either there are not enough Brits - young or otherwise - and/or that Brits are unwilling/ unable to work in these industries.

 

There needs to be flexibility in the labour market and the withdrawal of freedom of movement for EU citizens reduces it.

Labour shortages felt all over Europe

One of the reasons for the shortage of workers in the richer EU countries might lie in the disruptions that the COVID pandemic brought to intra-EU migration.

Gerhard Huemer of SMEUnited said: “What we see most of is Eastern Europeans having returned home during the pandemic and choosing not to head back to Western Europe now.”

https://www.euractiv.com/section/politics/news/labour-shortages-felt-all-over-europe/

 

Spain has passed laws in July that allow Non-EU nationals ( Including UK nationals) will be able to obtain a work visa to come to Spain more easily and take up jobs in areas facing labour shortages i.e. tourism, construction, agriculture.

[Chomper Higgot]

4 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Aren't they both Governed by the same employment laws and minimum wages and things like that ?

EE workers were not employed on ‘minimum wage’.

 

And the Tories are in the process of repealing rafts of laws on worker rights.

 

If you thought the East Europeans were taking ‘British  Jobs’ you are going to be thrilled with the replacement, it’s not going to be British workers and they are going yo be cheap.

 

 

 

 

[Mac Mickmanus]

Just now, Chomper Higgot said:

EE workers were not employed on ‘minimum wage’.

 

And the Tories are in the process of repealing rafts of laws on worker rights.

 

If you thought the East Europeans were taking ‘British  Jobs’ you are going to be thrilled with the replacement, it’s not going to be British workers and they are going yo be cheap.

 

 

 

 

Difference is , Indians will be coming to fill job vacancies , rather than coming to seek employment and also they must be in recipient of a certain minimum wage to get the visa , so the UK wont be flooded with millions of people seeking work anywhere they can, like the E.E were and did .

   Cheap Indian labourers wont be able to get a UK Visa 

[Chomper Higgot]

Just now, Mac Mickmanus said:

Difference is , Indians will be coming to fill job vacancies , rather than coming to seek employment and also they must be in recipient of a certain minimum wage to get the visa , so the UK wont be flooded with millions of people seeking work anywhere they can, like the E.E were and did .

   Cheap Indian labourers wont be able to get a UK Visa 

You are deluding yourself.

 

 

[Mac Mickmanus]

1 minute ago, Chomper Higgot said:

You are deluding yourself.

 

 

I am not, I have looked at the UK Govs requirement for issuing work visa and they need to have a job offer which pays a certain wage , 

[Chomper Higgot]

7 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

I am not, I have looked at the UK Govs requirement for issuing work visa and they need to have a job offer which pays a certain wage , 

So how did those Indonesian farm labourers get visas, was it their high rates of pay?

 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/aug/14/uk-farm-workers-kent-debt-indonesian-brokers

[RayC]

51 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Have you forgotten WE make the rules , do you still think that we are in the E.U and you tell us what to do ?

So your argument is now reduced to "You can't tell us what to do. I'm going to self-harm because I can"'

 

BTW: I'm British and YOU Brexiters don't own patriotism.

 

51 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

   The U.K Gov has taken measures to give visas to people who can fill the labour shortage 

Which is labourious and time-consuming and would be unnecessary if freedom of movement still existed.

 

You just can't bring yourself to admit - despite all the evidence that is presented - that Brexit has had a negative effect on the labour market in certain sectors in the UK.

[RayC]

42 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

Labour shortages felt all over Europe

One of the reasons for the shortage of workers in the richer EU countries might lie in the disruptions that the COVID pandemic brought to intra-EU migration.

Gerhard Huemer of SMEUnited said: “What we see most of is Eastern Europeans having returned home during the pandemic and choosing not to head back to Western Europe now.”

https://www.euractiv.com/section/politics/news/labour-shortages-felt-all-over-europe/

 

Spain has passed laws in July that allow Non-EU nationals ( Including UK nationals) will be able to obtain a work visa to come to Spain more easily and take up jobs in areas facing labour shortages i.e. tourism, construction, agriculture.

I've not suggested that there aren't labour shortages in some sectors and some member states in the EU. 

 

However both intuitively - and empirically - the labour market operates more efficiently if any barriers to labour mobility are removed.

[vinny41]

2 minutes ago, RayC said:

I've not suggested that there aren't labour shortages in some sectors and some member states in the EU. 

 

However both intuitively - and empirically - the labour market operates more efficiently if any barriers to labour mobility are removed.

If you want labour shortages to be removed employers need to pay better rates, better working conditions some sort of job security not these zero hour contracts

Both in the UK and Europe it seems the same business sectors that have a huge problem with labour shortages

Since covid and people returned home they have found better paid jobs together with a better homelife hence they have not returned to their former jobs

Airlines let a large number of staff go during Covid at the end of covid some airliness came up with a brillant idea Why don't we rehire them but with less salary and worse working conditions before they left

[RayC]

18 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

If you want labour shortages to be removed employers need to pay better rates, better working conditions some sort of job security not these zero hour contracts

Both in the UK and Europe it seems the same business sectors that have a huge problem with labour shortages

Since covid and people returned home they have found better paid jobs together with a better homelife hence they have not returned to their former jobs

Airlines let a large number of staff go during Covid at the end of covid some airliness came up with a brillant idea Why don't we rehire them but with less salary and worse working conditions before they left

All well and good and I'd agree with most of what you say BUT whatever way you dress it up, the fact remains that EU citizens now need a visa to work in the UK and this is a barrier to labour mobility.

[vinny41]

7 minutes ago, RayC said:

All well and good and I'd agree with most of what you say BUT whatever way you dress it up, the fact remains that EU citizens now need a visa to work in the UK and this is a barrier to labour mobility.

Majority of countries worldwide have working visas requirments so the UK is no different to any other country

Unrestricted labour access mainly benefits SME and businesses that are not unionize they drive down wages and working conditions for everyone thats works in those business sectors

[RayC]

50 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

Majority of countries worldwide have working visas requirments so the UK is no different to any other country

Not a justification for leaving the single market

 

50 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

 

Unrestricted labour access mainly benefits SME and businesses that are not unionize they drive down wages and working conditions for everyone thats works in those business sectors

Debatable. At a basic level it is simply a matter of demand and supply. If they are in equilibrium, you will - in theory - get a fair market price (wage).

[vinny41]

51 minutes ago, RayC said:

Not a justification for leaving the single market

 

Debatable. At a basic level it is simply a matter of demand and supply. If they are in equilibrium, you will - in theory - get a fair market price (wage).

The  justification for leaving the single market is simple a majority vote took place in 2016 to leave the European Union.

In practice if a employer is paying their workers £525 for a 35 hour week and then they find out they can imported cheaper labour elsewhere and pay them £250 for the same 35 hour week then they are going to do so

Cheap labour and poor working conditions isn't just a UK problem Its an EU problem

 

Invisible workers: Underpaid, exploited and put at risk on Europe’s farms

"At the moment we have this crazy situation where we actually have better protection for animals than for some of these workers on our farms," said German Green MEP Daniel Freund.

https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2020/07/17/invisible-workers-underpaid-exploited-and-put-at-risk-on-europe-s-farms

 

Most of these workers are cross-border migrants which would be in the UK if the UK allowed unrestricted access

Edited October 24, 2022 by vinny41
add

[RayC]

21 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

The  justification for leaving the single market is simple a majority vote took place in 2016 to leave the European Union.

Indeed. There was a referendum where the majority voted for economic self-harm which is now being shown to be a completely irrational decision.

 

21 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

In practice if a employer is paying their workers £525 for a 35 hour week and then they find out they can imported cheaper labour elsewhere and pay them £250 for the same 35 hour week then they are going to do so

That's how a market economy works.

 

21 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

 

Cheap labour and poor working conditions isn't just a UK problem Its an EU problem

I haven't suggested it isn't. I agree that there should be laws to protect worker's rights, working conditions, etc. I'm not a Truss free-market ideologue.

 

21 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

 

Invisible workers: Underpaid, exploited and put at risk on Europe’s farms

"At the moment we have this crazy situation where we actually have better protection for animals than for some of these workers on our farms," said German Green MEP Daniel Freund.

https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2020/07/17/invisible-workers-underpaid-exploited-and-put-at-risk-on-europe-s-farms

I still don't understand your point.  Should some of the Labour laws in the EU (and UK) be tightened up? Probably.

 

Wrt to the events outlined in the article, I don't know anything about French or Spanish law but, given that they are both civilised countries, I imagine most (all?) of the outlined practices are illegal?

 

Once again, we are broadly in agreement. However, yet again, nothing you have posted negates my contention that stopping freedom of movement has damaged the UK labour market in some industries.

[RayC]

Interesting article in the BBC 6 o'clock news tonight about the effects of Brexit on the UK labour market. Imagine that it will be in the 10pm version as well.

 

Spoiler alert: They imply the effects have been negative.