The EV beyond mobility

[webfact]

 

Electric car owners will soon find themselves making a greater contribution to the country than they ever imagined. Apart from reducing emissions, electric cars become potential “power plants” that strengthen national energy security or even be part of a disaster relief solution.

 

The recent signing of MOU between the Electricity Generating Authority of Thailand (EGAT) and Japanese carmakers Nissan and Mitsubishi has brought this dream one step closer to reality. The cooperation is part of the ERC Sandbox Phase 2 project under which a study on Vehicle-to-Grid (V2G) technology is to be implemented. If successful, the virtual power plant (VPP) concept will soon become a reality.

 

A virtual power plant is a network of decentralized power generating units, such as solar farms, wind farms, and even batteries of electric vehicles (EV). The concept allows for the purchase of excess power from these power–generating units.

 

Boonyanit Wongrukmit, EGAT Governor, said that promoting EVs on the local market is a significant step to move Thailand forward to achieve its carbon neutrality goal by 2050. EGAT has taken several initiatives towards this aim and one of them is to build an EV ecosystem.

 

Full story: https://www.thaipbsworld.com/the-ev-beyond-mobility/

 

-- © Copyright Thai PBS 2022-10-31

 

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[KhunLA]

And yet, no incentives to have solar installed on residence or to make it easy to feed the grid.

 

BS headlines to make you think they care or are working on solutions, when the simplest ones right in front of them, they ignore.

[Gold Star]

EV batteries are unique, vehicle specific, and many times more costly to replace at the dealer compared to stationary batteries. I would not want to have an EV plugged in and charged and discharged repeatedly without a very very large cash incentive. 

[khunPer]

I don't understand this line from the article – it's the "40-watt" – a typo or can some give me an explanation...
According to Nissan Motor Thailand, 40-watt EV battery can supply enough power for a small family to use for 3-4 days.

[KhunLA]

26 minutes ago, khunPer said:

I don't understand this line from the article – it's the "40-watt" – a typo or can some give me an explanation...
According to Nissan Motor Thailand, 40-watt EV battery can supply enough power for a small family to use for 3-4 days.

Surely they meant to state kW and if using a 40kW (of a 50kW) EV battery, then yes, it would power a house for 3-4 days.

 

First week having our solar system, and we were being conservative, to see how little we could live on, if needed.  Just 2 people, and we averaged about 10+ kW a day, so 3 days+ for us.  Not sure about a 'family' of 3 or 4.  OK just for necessities in an emergency situation, as we do have 2 frigs, and did use AC a wee bit.

Edited October 31, 2022 by KhunLA

[HarrySeaman]

Having a grid backup agreement with Nissan and Mitsubishi is basically meaningless. Why this is true is in the last paragraph below so skip to there if the rest doesn't interest you.

 

Until the last year or two most electric vehicle and power storage batteries used the same ternary (Mn, Ni, & Co) anode batteries.  Some of these were cylindrical batteries, some were pouch cell batteries, but they all used roughly the same chemistry.

 

The bad thing is that MNC ternary batteries use a flammable organic electrolyte, meaning they burn nicely if damaged or short circuited so that they overheat.  Typically they also lose about 20% of their power storage capacity after around 800-1000 discharge/charge cycles.  For a 300 km/200 mi range EV that is more than enough for over 10 years of use for most people.  Power storage batteries also lose capacity with discharge/charge cycles but a greater loss of capacity is acceptable for that application.

 

Over the last two years or so lithium iron phosphate batteries that use a non-flammable electrolyte have become more popular for EVs, and especially for power storage batteries.  These don't hold as much power as the ternary batteries or release that power as fast but importantly they aren't flammable and they can be discharged/charged 2-3 times as many times as the ternary batteries for the same amount of capacity loss.

The cost of electricity is less than the cost of gasoline/benzene to drive an ICE car a similar distance, especially if you charge it at home.  EVs do need new brake pads, tires, and windshield washer fluid just like an ICE car, but they don't need oil changes, new spark plugs, etc. that ICE cars need so you save money on maintenance.

 

A myth is that lithium ion batteries are environmentally unfriendly since they can't be recycled.  This is simply not true and there are already a number of companies that recycle lithium ion batteries with up to 98+% of the battery materials being recycled.

 

Something the article forgets to mention is that Japanese auto makers Nissan, Mitsubishi, Honda, and Toyota almost exclusively sell straight hybrid (HEV) and a small number of plug in hybrid cars (PHEV).  HEVs and PHEVs give you better gas mileage than an ICE car, but you still have the maintenance costs of an ICE vehicle.  The number of PEV sales by the Japanese auto makers is minuscule compared to Tesla or to a variety of PEV manufacturers from China, Europe, and Korea.

 

[WHansen]

Thanks for the info Harry

[Lacessit]

Some EV's have the capacity, IIRC it's called V2L. Effectively, the car can act as a storage battery for a home, just like a Tesla PowerWall, but on wheels. I think the MG EV has the required kit for transfer.

Edited October 31, 2022 by Lacessit

[JBChiangRai]

EV car batteries are far too expensive to repeatedly cycle, they are fine for emergency use during a power cut, but it's simply not economic to cycle them to sell the power to PEA.

[n8sail]

1 hour ago, Lacessit said:

Some EV's have the capacity, IIRC it's called V2L. Effectively, the car can act as a storage battery for a home, just like a Tesla PowerWall, but on wheels. I think the MG EV has the required kit for transfer.

Yes V2L or Vehicle to Load is the correct terminology.

Unfortunately, the MG EP EV cannot do this, nor can the ZS EV as far as I know.   I have had an MG EP for 1.5 years now with 42,000km already on it, great car so far.

 

The 7.5kw charger included with the car would normally be around 20k baht from my research.  It is a relatively 'stupid' smart charger.  You can't even limit it to stop at 80% charge level, which can allow a Lithium Ion battery to last much longer if you don't need the full range every day.  I have to physically go out and unplug the car.  No mobile phone app to control this car, either.   The charger does not have a feature to charge after hours only should Thailand ever implement discounts for charging at off-peak times.  (They don't where I live and work at least)

 

Well worth it for the money, though.  1/3 the cost of operation of my Ford Ranger so far, and WAY faster and more fun to drive.

[Lacessit]

11 minutes ago, n8sail said:

Yes V2L or Vehicle to Load is the correct terminology.

Unfortunately, the MG EP EV cannot do this, nor can the ZS EV as far as I know.   I have had an MG EP for 1.5 years now with 42,000km already on it, great car so far.

 

The 7.5kw charger included with the car would normally be around 20k baht from my research.  It is a relatively 'stupid' smart charger.  You can't even limit it to stop at 80% charge level, which can allow a Lithium Ion battery to last much longer if you don't need the full range every day.  I have to physically go out and unplug the car.  No mobile phone app to control this car, either.   The charger does not have a feature to charge after hours only should Thailand ever implement discounts for charging at off-peak times.  (They don't where I live and work at least)

 

Well worth it for the money, though.  1/3 the cost of operation of my Ford Ranger so far, and WAY faster and more fun to drive.

Perhaps I should have said the 2022 MG EV has V2L capability.

[seedy]

15 hours ago, HarrySeaman said:

A myth is that lithium ion batteries are environmentally unfriendly since they can't be recycled.  This is simply not true and there are already a number of companies that recycle lithium ion batteries with up to 98+% of the battery materials being recycled.

Good post. One point tho' -

Altho' the CAN be recycled, there is this ...

 

The valorization of waste lithium-ion batteries and their materials through recycling has gained significant attention in recent years. The recycling rate of lithium-ion batteries is still low at under 5%, however. The main reasons for this are cost and the complexity of recycling methods.

https://www.azom.com/news.aspx?newsID=57992

[Gknrd]

I can see it now.  Electric trucks with a diesel generator in the back.

[nobodysfriend]

H2 ( Hydrogen ) will be for trucks , EV mostly for city ...

 

Standardized hot - swappable batteries for EV's in the future ....

Edited November 1, 2022 by nobodysfriend

[Lacessit]

43 minutes ago, Gknrd said:

I can see it now.  Electric trucks with a diesel generator in the back.

That's already happened in Australia, a Polestar EV was driven across the Nullarbor, accompanied by a truck with a diesel generator on board for recharging. But don't worry, the fuel for the two diesels was environmentally sustainable - recycled oil from fish and chip shops in Perth.

[n8sail]

20 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

That's already happened in Australia, a Polestar EV was driven across the Nullarbor, accompanied by a truck with a diesel generator on board for recharging. But don't worry, the fuel for the two diesels was environmentally sustainable - recycled oil from fish and chip shops in Perth.

A good mate of mine here manages the building of the electric passenger ferries that are being made for Bangkok's canals and rivers and also for other places around the planet.  All of these 'electric' ferries have 'range extenders' in them.    Otherwise known as a diesel generator  ????

 

There are other jokes we make about 'range extenders' for use in other purposes, but they aren't clean enough for this forum. ????

[n8sail]

15 hours ago, Lacessit said:

Perhaps I should have said the 2022 MG EV has V2L capability.

Indeed they do!   Not sure if the Thai version will have it, but in UK they do.

It's a bit useless though, not exactly going to fire up the power grid in your local area with only 2200 watts of maximum output.   I suppose your girlfriend could dry her hair as long as she just has a cheap hair dryer from Big-C or something similar.   It would run a small refrigerator.  It would not run even a very small house air conditioner, though.

 

https://www.mgevs.com/threads/vehicle-to-load-v2l-any-information-or-first-hand-experiences.4810/

Edited November 1, 2022 by n8sail

[KhunLA]

3 minutes ago, n8sail said:

Not sure if the Thai version will have it ...

Yes they do

[paulbrow]

23 hours ago, KhunLA said:

And yet, no incentives to have solar installed on residence or to make it easy to feed the grid.

 

BS headlines to make you think they care or are working on solutions, when the simplest ones right in front of them, they ignore.

That would make too much sense!

[JBChiangRai]

7 hours ago, nobodysfriend said:

Standardised, hot swappable batteries…

 

That’s far too sensible.

Edited November 1, 2022 by JBChiangRai

[josephbloggs]

16 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

Standardised, hot swappable batteries…

 

That’s far too sensible.

Already being done in China.  Drive in, a machine cremoves your battery and puts a fully charged one in and off you go.  Takes three minutes.

[DJ54]

YouTuber added …

[thaibeachlovers]

On 10/31/2022 at 9:39 PM, HarrySeaman said:

The cost of electricity is less than the cost of gasoline/benzene to drive an ICE car a similar distance, especially if you charge it at home.  EVs do need new brake pads, tires, and windshield washer fluid just like an ICE car, but they don't need oil changes, new spark plugs, etc. that ICE cars need so you save money on maintenance.

Given the cost of an EV, and the fact that many could never afford such, but use cheap  second hand cars IMO the appeal of an EV is only going to be to those that can afford a new car.

IMO the likelihood of any used EV near battery replacement time of being sold is virtually nil, unless things change significantly.

Of course, if the motor industry smells the coffee and goes hydrogen, all such problems goes away.

[thaibeachlovers]

13 hours ago, josephbloggs said:

Already being done in China.  Drive in, a machine cremoves your battery and puts a fully charged one in and off you go.  Takes three minutes.

That is indeed the way to go. Solves all the obvious problems bar infrastructure capacity to charge all the batteries.

[HarrySeaman]

9 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Given the cost of an EV, and the fact that many could never afford such, but use cheap  second hand cars IMO the appeal of an EV is only going to be to those that can afford a new car.

IMO the likelihood of any used EV near battery replacement time of being sold is virtually nil, unless things change significantly.

Of course, if the motor industry smells the coffee and goes hydrogen, all such problems goes away.

You can buy a Wuling Hongguang Mini EV Urban EV* for four people in China for the equivalent of around USA $9000 to $12,00 depending on the model, and it sells at a profit - $4. ????  There are a number of models available for less than $20,000.  The Ora Good Cat is another good example of a very low cost Urban EV.  Other companies have even larger EVs with 300+ km ranges in the $15,000 to $30,000 range.

 

Considering the cost of gasoline vs electricity and the added maintenance of an ICE car the cost difference for a new EV verses a new ICE car is smaller than most people think, and shrinking quickly as the cost of EVs steadily decreases over the next few years.  In my opinion, and the opinion of lots of others who are much more knowledgeable about EVs than I am, the crossover point where EVs outsell ICE cars worldwide might happen by 2025, but certainly by 2027. 

 

Forget the ICE vehicle manufacturers and Wall Street analysis.  They have had their collective heads up their places where the sun don't shine about this since Tesla started selling EVs and they still have their heads in the same places.  It isn't a linear replacement, it is an exponential change like all other disruptions such as auto for horse and buggy or smart phones for land line phones - 3 vital skills for the age of disruption.

 

By 2025 the value of second hand ICE will already have fallen vs now, so yes, you will be a able to get a cheap second hand ICE car, but you better figure on writing off the cost in a couple of years because the market for second hand ICE cars will dry up.  By 2030 ICE cars will only be sold for special needs or will be dumped in the poorest countries.  The carnage among the old ICE vehicle makers will make Wall Street analysts and ICE manufactures stock owners weep.

 

* Urban EVs are small and have a short range on a charge.  They are perfect for taking the kids to and from school, grocery shopping, or commuting in a city to and from work but not for long trips so you just rent one for long trips.