Rental Deposit and Utilities Payment Advice

[Huahinexpat83]

Hi everyone. No surprises, but things are going south with getting my deposit back. Been here long enough to expect it, however, my question is that now I’ve left, and I’m being told not to expect any of my (significant) deposit back (for example, scuff on the wall now requires the entire room to be repainted etc etc), I’m left with the option to not pay the upcoming utility bills. Note, I’ve already vacated the house and it’s been checked and keys handed back over. The next bill is coming on the 15th. I was in the house until Oct 29. My question is, is this ok to do (legally)? Not if it’s the right thing to do… trust me, I know it’s best to pay what has been used. But, it’s my only way to recover any kind of money from this debacle. 
 

thank you in advance!

Edited November 6, 2022 by Huahinexpat83

[Onerak]

I used to rent a two bed-room condo in Thonglor for 20K. Deposit was 40K. Once my daughter came from Issan with her mother to live with me for two months.  She scribbled all over the wall.  My landlord deducted the cleaning money (5K) and unpaid utilities and refunded the remaining.

[OneMoreFarang]

1 hour ago, Huahinexpat83 said:

I’m left with the option to not pay the upcoming utility bills.

You know it is legally wrong if you don't pay the bills.

Do you want to put yourself into that position? Maybe with consequences for your future?

IMHO you are in a bad position. Don't make it worse! 

[FritsSikkink]

Do you have a specific list what is being deducted from your deposit?

[TheFishman1]

I guess I’ve just been very fortunate of always got my deposit back usually with a very small amount deducted for cleaning if the electric bill is in the owners name don’t pay it I’m sure your deposit that you’re losing is a lot more than the electric bill for a month I would also ask the landlord For an itemized bill after saying all that I can say is TIT

[swm59nj]

I would take any steps you think necessary not to get taken advantage of.  .Not illegal of course.  Unfortunately some think they can get away with things because you are a foreigner.  
I lived in a condo for a year in Onut.  A property agency found it for me.  Owner was a young Thai woman.  Spoke English fluently.  She was very nice. Until a repair needed to be done. 
I had a rental contract signed by both of us.  Specifically stating what she was responsible for.  During that time the air conditioner in the bedroom started leaking from the unit itself,  not the compressor outside.  
When I contacted her.  She  said I had to have it repaired.  I told her according to the contract she was responsible for the air conditioner.  She said I’m a foreigner and have no rights here.  I told her we will see about that.  And told her I will take legal action  if necessary because we have a written contract.  
The property agency then called me.  The owner called them whining I was going to take legal action against her. They told her she was responsible for anything the contract stated.  She repaired the air conditioner. 
At the end of the contract I moved.  And she returned the whole deposit to me.
You have to stand up for yourself.  A number of these  people think they can get away with anything because you are a foreigner.  So they try to take advantage.  And if you allow them they will.  

[Huahinexpat83]

Hi, all.  Thank you for all of the advice.  I just went ahead and advance paid what we had used until we moved out.  I knew that I couldn't accept myself being that person.  I used it, I should pay for it.  I'm left with hoping I'll be treated fairly down the line, but not holding my breath.

[JBChiangRai]

Repainting a room because one wall is damaged is not necessarily unreasonable if repainting the wall is going to stand out like a sore thumb.  There shouldn't be any scuffs on any wall anyway, I have lived here 17 years and never scuffed a wall, I don't recall ever doing it in my entire adult life.

 

I rent out property, I put a percentage of the rent each month into a separate deposit account to refund the deposit at the end of the tenancy, that way I don't notice the pain of returning the deposit at the end of the agreement.  I also write into the agreement that a deduction will be made for professional cleaning all the air cons at the end of the agreement and replacing the water filters in the Reverse Osmosis drinking water system as both activities were done prior to the tenant moving in and are really consumables.  Air con indoor unit filters should be cleaned every 30-60 days, I do that in my house, how many tenants ever do it? My experience is zero.

 

What every landlord wants is a tenant who stays long term, I have never understood this thing about moving to a new property every 6 or 12 months.  A lot of landlords don't refund deposits because they can't afford to, it's just a symptom of them being incapable of managing their finances properly.  What really riles me, is agents who continue to rent out properties of landlords who serially keep deposits.  In my book they are jointly liable.

 

When my tenants have a problem, I move heaven and earth to fix it as quickly as possible.  Every landlord wants good tenants and every tenant wants a good landlord.

[Huahinexpat83]

@JBChiangRai I see your points.  I have to say I've been an incredibly diligent and respectful renter for more than 3 years.  I've never been a short-term renter, much to my frustration(!), I'm trying to get out of this cycle.   Here's the thing, we had a contract to August 2023, the owner got an offer on the house, we were 'forced' to move (not legally, but, morally).  Consider that my wife was 37 weeks pregnant when we found this out.  We did the 'right' thing, we moved, putting up even more deposits on a new place at a time when money was incredibly tight, then this happens.  

 

Scuffing walls aside, it does happen... and no it doesn't require a full room repaint (come on, lol), it is very clear to me that there is zero intention to pay the deposit.  You may be right about not being able to afford it, but it's wrong, and it frustrates me and many others to no end.  

 

Perhaps we'd all be better off with a landlord such as yourself, but I still get the feeling that deposits are just there as a convenient way to pay for the owner responsibility of general maintenance and readiness for new tenants.  If renting a place is an investment, then the deposit shouldn't be factored into it.  Frankly, it's disgusting how some are treated.  Sounds like you're a better one.

[worgeordie]

The problem is some Landlords expect to get the property back

in better condition  than they rented it out , and will dream up

all kinds of stuff so they have not got to repay the deposit.

 

My wife been Thai ,she has that view ,but I try to explain the

concept of wear and tear, we always repaint the interior when

a tenant leaves ,not a big problem , only when there has been

some serious damage ,that only happened once ,a Thai renter

took 3 Teak doors , 4 A/c , all the curtains ,good job it was not

furnished ,we got the stolen items back ,but kept the deposit

due to the Hassle they caused, 

 

regards worgeordie

[wadman]

2 hours ago, Huahinexpat83 said:

Hi, all.  Thank you for all of the advice.  I just went ahead and advance paid what we had used until we moved out.  I knew that I couldn't accept myself being that person.  I used it, I should pay for it.  I'm left with hoping I'll be treated fairly down the line, but not holding my breath.

I thought that part of the deposit was to cover for the utility bill of the last month, no?  I moved out of my last place (soi buakhao 15) on the 28th of the month, asked/told the agent to pay the electricity + water bill when they come out at the beginning of the month (as I too wasn't quite sure I would get my deposit back).  They were fine with that. 

 

After considerably longer than promised (at the time of signing the contract, it was "we will refund your deposit in 3 business days!"), I did get my deposit back minus the utility bills.  In the agency's defence, they did have to wait a few days for the utility bills to come out.  And there were a couple of holidays in between.  But still, it took 19 days and several times of prodding before I got my money back.  But still, I consider myself lucky to get my money back.

[JBChiangRai]

12 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

You know it is legally wrong if you don't pay the bills.

Do you want to put yourself into that position? Maybe with consequences for your future?

IMHO you are in a bad position. Don't make it worse! 

It depends on the tenancy agreement.  Usually, the tenancy agreement says the deposit will be refunded after deducting any damage and outstanding utility bills.  It can't be illegal not to pay a utility bill if there is a condition of not doing so in the contract.

[chilly07]

Internal ac will  leak if not cleaned every 6mths-pipe blocks and condensate cannot  get away.  Always  check that condensate  is dripping  outside.  500bht to clean otherwise. Tenants responsibility as you are using the ac and it's your dust and dirt blocking the drainage channel.

[Regyai]

6 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

 

I rent out property, I put a percentage of the rent each month into a separate deposit account to refund the deposit at the end of the tenancy, that way I don't notice the pain of returning the deposit at the end of the agreement. 

 

 

Why not just do it properly and put the whole deposit in to a separate account on receipt of it?

 

This in essence is the root cause of most of these deposit return bouts of acrimony (notably with Thai owners). 'Pi55ing up the wall' a received deposit as some kind of windfall cash winnings leads to the inevitable prospect of trying to  relinquish unachievable funds from their grocery monies a year later when the tenant leaves .

[Jumbo1968]

Don’t the rent, if it’s 10000 baht a month and you have 20000 baht deposit tell the owners 2 months before you leave and don’t pay the rent for the last 2 months.

[JBChiangRai]

15 hours ago, Regyai said:

Why not just do it properly and put the whole deposit in to a separate account on receipt of it?

 

Because the landlord doesn't get the 2 month's deposit, the agent takes half of it upfront, and the tenant is only entitled to return of the deposit at the end of the tenancy agreement.  He doesn't get any deposit back if he breaks the lease and leaves early (unless he finds a suitable replacement tenant).

[Jumbo1968]

1 hour ago, JBChiangRai said:

Because the landlord doesn't get the 2 month's deposit, the agent takes half of it upfront, and the tenant is only entitled to return of the deposit at the end of the tenancy agreement.  He doesn't get any deposit back if he breaks the lease and leaves early (unless he finds a suitable replacement tenant).

Many properties I see for rent are only advertised with the owners phone number attached to the exterior, no agents involved, my current owner does that and I know he has never returned 3 of previous tenants deposits, he has 3 properties all next to me.

[JBChiangRai]

40 minutes ago, Jumbo1968 said:

Many properties I see for rent are only advertised with the owners phone number attached to the exterior, no agents involved, my current owner does that and I know he has never returned 3 of previous tenants deposits, he has 3 properties all next to me.

What Thailand needs is an affordable "Small Claims" system.  The odds are stacked against the wronged party unless the claim is in 6 figures.

[bkk6060]

Why didn't you clean the scuff off the wall?

What else is wrong?

[JimmyJ]

It's the Defamation law that let's them get away with this.

(And as JB ChiangRai mentions, no Small Claims Court).

 

Otherwise there would be websites with customers complaints, and those landlords would only get tenants who are not internet savvy.

 

I would never pay more than 1 month's deposit, but I don't think I would even pay that unless I know the landlord has a great reputation.

Lots of vacant apartments, and landlords needing rent money.

 

I would let the apartment owner call/email my previous landlords for references.

Edited November 8, 2022 by JimmyJ

[brianthainess]

On 11/7/2022 at 8:49 AM, JBChiangRai said:

Repainting a room because one wall is damaged is not necessarily unreasonable if repainting the wall is going to stand out like a sore thumb.  There shouldn't be any scuffs on any wall anyway, I have lived here 17 years and never scuffed a wall, I don't recall ever doing it in my entire adult life.

 

I rent out property, I put a percentage of the rent each month into a separate deposit account to refund the deposit at the end of the tenancy, that way I don't notice the pain of returning the deposit at the end of the agreement. 

Well you should deposit all of the deposit no pain then init.

 It is law in some countries like OZ. deposit held by a government agency, but TIT.

 

[Jumbo1968]

Just now, brianthainess said:

Well you should deposit all of the deposit no pain then init.

 It is law in some countries like OZ. deposit held by a government agency, but TIT.

 

Same in the U.K.

[JBChiangRai]

49 minutes ago, Jumbo1968 said:

Same in the U.K.

I had to look up government mandated deposit protection schemes, I moved here from the UK in early 2007 and there was no such requirement then.  A great idea though.  The problem here is many landlords view the deposit as their "signing on" bonus and it's long gone by the time the tenancy finishes, whereas in reality it's the tenant's "signing off" bonus for completing the tenancy's full term without damage or outstanding bills.

 

In my experience only about half of tenancies here go to the full term.  I've had a Chinese company do a moonlight flit, a French couple tell me they have no money, a Danish guy who said he wanted something cheaper, amongst others.  I never had a problem with tenants leaving early in the UK and normally they would renew and stay for years.

[Jumbo1968]

6 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

I had to look up government mandated deposit protection schemes, I moved here from the UK in early 2007 and there was no such requirement then.  A great idea though.  The problem here is many landlords view the deposit as their "signing on" bonus and it's long gone by the time the tenancy finishes, whereas in reality it's the tenant's "signing off" bonus for completing the tenancy's full term without damage or outstanding bills.

 

In my experience only about half of tenancies here go to the full term.  I've had a Chinese company do a moonlight flit, a French couple tell me they have no money, a Danish guy who said he wanted something cheaper, amongst others.  I never had a problem with tenants leaving early in the UK and normally they would renew and stay for years.

It is a requirement.

https://www.gov.uk/tenancy-deposit-protection

[JimmyJ]

I disagree that tenants are responsible for air conditioner maintenance.

 

I have never experienced that in the US or in SEA, renting a house and apartments.

 

Supplied appliances are the landlord's responsibility.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 8, 2022 by JimmyJ

[Jumbo1968]

32 minutes ago, JimmyJ said:

I disagree that tenants are responsible for air conditioner maintenance.

 

I have never experienced that in the US or in SEA, renting a house and apartments.

 

Supplied appliances are the landlord's responsibility.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Our water pump was faulty and had to be replaced with a new one, the owner asked to contribute 50%, my wife said it’s not our house. For AC I pay for it to be serviced, for me anything which is permanently fixed in the property it is the owners responsibility. If I was forced for some reason to replace an AC Unit I would remove it when I vacated the property.

[JimmyJ]

This will blow some minds here:

 

Rented a great house in the US - After a while a light bulb or a battery in smoke alarm needed replacing.

 

Gf said it's the owners responsibility.

I was extremely doubtful but had never rented a house before.

 

Called the owner and he said to buy it and take it off the rent.

Not a hint of protest or upset.

Edited November 8, 2022 by JimmyJ

[Regyai]

8 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

Because the landlord doesn't get the 2 month's deposit, the agent takes half of it upfront, and the tenant is only entitled to return of the deposit at the end of the tenancy agreement.  He doesn't get any deposit back if he breaks the lease and leaves early (unless he finds a suitable replacement tenant).

Surely this is merely the agent 'shortcutting' his fee from available cash funds. Unless of course its written into the rental contract that half the tenant's deposit is to taken to pay your agent.

 

The equitable way is to place the full deposit in an interest bearing account until the resolution of the tenancy agreement. Then (and only then) if there's default per the agreement do the valid amount of these funds become available to you.

Edited November 8, 2022 by Regyai

[JBChiangRai]

42 minutes ago, Regyai said:

Surely this is merely the agent 'shortcutting' his fee from available cash funds. Unless of course its written into the rental contract that half the tenant's deposit is to taken to pay your agent.

 

The equitable way is to place the full deposit in an interest bearing account until the resolution of the tenancy agreement. Then (and only then) if there's default per the agreement do the valid amount of these funds become available to you.

I don't think it matters whether you put the deposit in an interest bearing account at lease commencement or if you accrue a percentage each month into a deposit account, they both achieve the same result by the end of the lease term when the tenant earns the right to his deposit refund.  I prefer to set up a scheduled transfer each month from my normal account to a separate deposit account for this purpose.  He is never entitled to his deposit plus interest, unless that is the contract, which in my leases it is not.

 

My agent was sharp, he took the 2 months deposit and only offered me half of it on the last lease.