U.S. SSA Form 7162 delivery difficulties

[rexall]

Thanks Pib.  Very helpful, and a little unsettling.

OK, this has been covered in various posts, but based on reading this lengthy thread, this is my super-paranoid plan:

1. Send original and second request forms to PA via Registered Mail as per usual.

2. Email Manila with tracking #, advising scan available upon request*

3.  Use a remailing service like the one the OP suggested  https://www.letterstream.com/

to mail a scan of the 7162 regular first class mail through the U.S. Postal Service. There is another similar service I have used in the past that works well too. Ironically, it is much cheaper than even registered mail ????, and a log of all your mailings is readily available, and additional layer of proof.

4. Keep nose to the grindstone and ear to the wind with fingers crossed! ????

*I am sure that Manila is less than enthusiastic about receiving such emails, and can do nothing with the info, but is is just another layer for establishing compliance should the tish ever hit the fan.

[Pib]

Just as a 7162/7161 refresher regarding the 1st, 2nd, and Suspension notices and how different SSA departments such as Wilkes Barre, Office of Int'l Ops in Baltimore, Manila FBU, etc., fit in the process, the two SSA Program Operations Manual System (POMS) weblinks shown at the bottom spell it out.   POMS is what the SSA calls its operating instructions.   

 

And from review of the two POMS you'll see there is a combination of automated and manual activities occur that determine if a person ends up on the suspended list and it varies a little depending on whether it's a 7162 or 7161. 

 

You will notice that if a person is suspended the FBU, like the Manila FBU, is the key department in trying to resolve the problem but of course that means they need to be able to contact you and all they got to go on is your address, phone number and email on-file (correct or outdated).  And I doubt they would try to contact you by email or call....and probably not by mail since no response to the 7162/7161 notices has occurred (although you may have mail a form back it just never made it to Wilkes Barre or didn't make it in time).  Instead they are probably going to wait for you to contact them.  So, it's pretty much up to the individual to contact the FBU to get off the suspended list (not to imply contacting the Office of Int'l Ops in Baltimore might not work also).  

 

The Foreign Enforcement Questionnaire (FEQ) Process.   FEQ is the SSA's fancy name for the 7161/7162 forms.

https://secure.ssa.gov/poms.nsf/lnx/0302655010

 

What Wilkes Barre Does

https://secure.ssa.gov/poms.nsf/lnx/0302655007

 

[Pib]

4 hours ago, Pib said:

Oh yea....the SSA will definitely suspend benefits if they don't receive back the form and the ensuing checks accomplished by the SSA can't satisfy the form requirements.

 

SSA knows suspension of benefits will definitely gain the beneficiary's attention and quick reaction to contact the SSA to resolve the problem.

 

Once fixed....which is basically confirming you are still alive.....then any suspended benefits will be paid within a few days to few weeks.

 

Additionally, Manila will be very receptive in accepting  a 7161/7162 sent to them "once you appear on the suspension list."  But as we seen in several replies from Manila they don't even want to provide a blank form for completion until 1 Nov (after a 2nď notice should have been received by 31 Oct) and even then they instruct a person to mail it to Wilkes Barre.  But as mentioned once appearing on the Jan suspension list they will accept a form sent to them to unsuspend your payments but still may require you to also send a copy to Wilkes Barre.

Below weblink is a SSA Office of Inspector General Audit Report in 2017 regarding the FEQ process (i.e., 7162/7161).  It appears the audit was looking at 2015 data.  It's probably the latest IG review of the FEQ process especially since the COVID pandemic hit in 2019 and the FEQ process came to a halt for a coupe of years.   

 

Read the short IG report for full details....but I did quote one paragraph from the report.

 

https://oig-files.ssa.gov/audits/full/A-13-16-50092.pdf

Quote

Based on our sample results, we estimate SSA suspended and later resumed benefits to about 3,977 beneficiaries and paid them approximately $9.4 million even though they did not respond to the FEQs.

 

Edited December 9, 2022 by Pib

[HuskerDo2]

10 hours ago, rexall said:

You can "should" in one hand and s*h*t* in the other, and see which hand gets full first! ????
That's a clever idea, but still doesn't provide much "security" that the form gets where it is going.  I bet that if your benefits get cut off, it will take a looooong time to sort it out even if you have proof up the wazoo.

If it's sent via priority mail at the USPS there is tracking for the package and you know when it arrives. $9.90

 

Quit being so negative. 

[Skeptic7]

One one hand this entire antiquated process...snail mail, delivered mail sitting for months without being collected, SLOW processing, lack of knowledge/concern or remedies on SSA end, Wilkes-Barre and Manila FBU not doing their jobs, and complete INEPTITUDE is outrageous and totally unacceptable.

 

On the other hand, it's just so typical and mildly amusing...government apathy and inability to do a simple job. Would be almost funny, if not such a serious matter. More serious for some than others but regardless of financial situation, no one wants to be bothered with such a simple process being turned into a "federal case" ever...so much as on an annual basis. Then having to jump through multiple flaming hoops, do double and triple work to double and triple check that the idiots are actually doing their jobs. 

 

Un-<deleted>-believable. 

[lopburi3]

7 hours ago, HuskerDo2 said:

If it's sent via priority mail at the USPS there is tracking for the package and you know when it arrives. $9.90

 

Quit being so negative. 

Thailand and other overseas locations do not have USPS - they are independent countries.

[etsllc]

Hi,

     As I posted before, you can send directly to the data processing center or the P.O.Box or Fax to them. But most of you don't understand is that they could very easily  make it all electronic. Just create a link to the form and require that you enter your SS #, at that point it fills in the form with your info. Then x the boxes that apply to you and hit send. They get it in seconds and they could send back to you your status (Active) and the date and Time for your records.
     I have tried to send the idea to the head of SSA in washington, but not even an answer, thank you, nothing. Maybe your sending this idea to your senator is what is needed. By my estimate, there are close to 6.5 million of us living outside the US.

SSA7162-1.pdf SSA7162-2.pdf

[Isaan sailor]

I wonder where our letters go.  Do they leave BKK, and make an interim stop in China?  That may explain some of the delays.  This info could be of interest to certain governments…

[lopburi3]

6 minutes ago, etsllc said:

But most of you don't understand is that they could very easily  make it all electronic

The whole purpose is proof you are still alive - this requires your signature and a witness.  Anyone could submit an electronic form.  Indeed an alternative might be personal appearance before US Consulate official - but for many/most that would be worse than mail.  Covid has messed up international mail beyond belief - with any luck that is over.

[mahjongguy]

21 minutes ago, lopburi3 said:

Covid has messed up international mail beyond belief

That's for sure, but well before COVID, mail between the US and TH was nothing to brag about.

 

In 2017 I send my form via ordinary Thai Post air mail, using the enclosed pre-addressed envelope.

 

Two months later the letter was returned to me in Thailand, hand-stamped (in Wilkes-Barre) with "No Such Address". 

 

<deleted>? It was their envelope.

 

 

 

 

[lopburi3]

1 minute ago, mahjongguy said:

That's for sure, but well before COVID, mail between the US and TH was nothing to brag about.

 

In 2017 I send my form via ordinary Thai Post air mail, using the enclosed pre-addressed envelope.

 

Two months later the letter was returned to me in Thailand, hand-stamped (in Wilkes-Barre) with "No Such Address". 

 

<deleted>? It was their envelope.

 

 

 

 

That is the US mail service we have today - indeed they are a very mixed bag.????

[JimmerJJ]

It is so archaic and backward that in this day and age we have to resort to these measures to try and get a letter back to the SSA.  We have secure online accounts called My Social Security so why can't they just use that for us to submit these forms. Or have a normal street address instead of a PO Box. Just ridiculous and maddening that we have to resort to this stuff.  I wish all Expats in the world would somehow be able to band together on this and submit a group complaint/petition to Congress to call SSA on the carpet about this.  Or at least we should each write all our Congressmen and let them know about this fiasco. It should make everyone mad as hell that SSA is so out of touch that they screw with our earned benefits like this.

Edited December 10, 2022 by JimmerJJ

[Pib]

1 hour ago, Isaan sailor said:

I wonder where our letters go.  Do they leave BKK, and make an interim stop in China?  That may explain some of the delays.  This info could be of interest to certain governments…

Mail bound for Wilkes Barre PA goes from Bangkok to JFK Airport/Jamaica (part of New York City)....that usually takes a few days to a week in various controlled registered airmail test I have done.  And other folks who post their tracking results show the same thing.

 

At Jamaica the mail enters USPS International Service Center and U.S. Customs systems....once clearing Customs which can take hours to weeks (highly variable) the USPS Int'l Service Center will direct the mail to either the Scranton PA USPS Distribution Center or Lehigh Valley PA USPS Distribution Center....sometime the mail goes thru both. 

 

Then it on the Wilkes Barre PA Post Office who manages around 18 ZIP codes, one of which is the Wilkes Barre SSA ZIP code.  The an agent from the Wilkes Barre Data Processing Center comes and picks up mail on business days who takes the mail back to the SSA Processing Center for internal distribution.   This SSA Data Processing Center Receives many different forms....not just 7162/7161 forms.

 

Where the 7162/7161 always seem to go MIA and/or get stuck in the mud is after leaving the USPS International Service Center or after leaving the Scranton or Lehigh Valley Distribution Centers.

 

The problem with 7162/7161 going MIA/taking so long to reach Wilkes Barre is "not", repeat, not with the Thai Postal System getting the mail to the U.S.; the problem, delay, MIA, etc., all occurs on the US Postal System end. 

 

And it appears "foreign registered" mail receive less than satisfactory attention in many cases once entering the USPS system.  Heck, there are plenty of complains for U.S. domestic registered mail receiving poor delivery service also.   

 

Summary of Problem: It's caused by the U.S. Postal System. 

 

 

 

[jeffandgop]

2 hours ago, lopburi3 said:

The whole purpose is proof you are still alive - this requires your signature and a witness.  Anyone could submit an electronic form.  Indeed an alternative might be personal appearance before US Consulate official - but for many/most that would be worse than mail.  Covid has messed up international mail beyond belief - with any luck that is over.

Witness?  Where do you get that requirement.  And the SSA uses electronic signature to apply for benefits; so why can't they do the same for the 7162 form?????????

[longball53098]

Biden can spend 100 billion dollars to support Ukraine but not a cent is spent to improve the SSA 7162 system. This age of modern electronics and we cannot have a system to file a simple form to get paid. Even the IRS can be done online why no SSA?  What a mess our government is. 

[lopburi3]

25 minutes ago, jeffandgop said:

Witness?  Where do you get that requirement.  And the SSA uses electronic signature to apply for benefits; so why can't they do the same for the 7162 form?????????

From reading a sample form.  I do not have SS so can only go by that.  This is a special requirement for those living overseas from my understanding and in place because some countries may not report deaths.  Yes there should be an updated process/video call/fingerprint type or such but as with most government change - it is behind the times.

[jeffandgop]

33 minutes ago, lopburi3 said:

From reading a sample form.  I do not have SS so can only go by that.  This is a special requirement for those living overseas from my understanding and in place because some countries may not report deaths.  Yes there should be an updated process/video call/fingerprint type or such but as with most government change - it is behind the times.

I collect SS and NO, there's no requirement for any witness. I've been submitting the 7162 for years...

[jeffandgop]

3 hours ago, lopburi3 said:

The whole purpose is proof you are still alive - this requires your signature and a witness.  Anyone could submit an electronic form.  Indeed an alternative might be personal appearance before US Consulate official - but for many/most that would be worse than mail.  Covid has messed up international mail beyond belief - with any luck that is over.

Further, there's no similar requirement for those collecting SS in the U.S.  Maybe that's where the SSA should focus....

https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=Awr99uP9GZRjRvsRixVXNyoA;_ylu=Y29sbwNncTEEcG9zAzIEdnRpZANMT0NVSTA1M18xBHNlYwNzcg--/RV=2/RE=1670679165/RO=10/RU=https%3a%2f%2fwww.nytimes.com%2f2022%2f12%2f02%2fus%2fsocial-security-theft-dead-mother.html/RK=2/RS=4WmeJHim.QV3f0SpXCO.lPXrd3g-

[lopburi3]

9 minutes ago, jeffandgop said:

I collect SS and NO, there's no requirement for any witness. I've been submitting the 7162 for years...

Sorry the witness is for those unable to sign.  As mentioned do not have SS so only noticed that there was a line 8.

 

As for overseas vis US indeed there are still a few cases in US but almost all deaths are reported and will get to SS.  Overseas that may not be the case.

[Pib]

57 minutes ago, jeffandgop said:

Further, there's no similar requirement for those collecting SS in the U.S.  Maybe that's where the SSA should focus....

https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=Awr99uP9GZRjRvsRixVXNyoA;_ylu=Y29sbwNncTEEcG9zAzIEdnRpZANMT0NVSTA1M18xBHNlYwNzcg--/RV=2/RE=1670679165/RO=10/RU=https%3a%2f%2fwww.nytimes.com%2f2022%2f12%2f02%2fus%2fsocial-security-theft-dead-mother.html/RK=2/RS=4WmeJHim.QV3f0SpXCO.lPXrd3g-

Yeap...the Foreign Enforcement Questionnaire (FEQ) process (a.ka., the 7162/7161 process) only applies to beneficiaries with a non-US address on-file with the SSA.  And I'm sure the primary reason is to ensure the person is still alive as "passing away" in many foreign countries might not get reported promptly or at all due weak social safety networks/systems, corrupt governments, etc., where the foreigners death stays under wraps for un-intentional or intentional reasons like foreign family members just want the money to continue flowing and are not worried in the less about not reporting the death....they just want the SSA pension money to keep flowing in.

 

Yea, yea, a foreigner's deaths is suppose to be reported to that foreigner embassy in that country but unless the embassy is notified by host country officials or family it will not know.   A lot of third world nations simply do not have good systems to track/notify/report foreigner deaths.

 

But when a person dies in the U.S. that death is reported in so many different ways....hospitals, morgues, police, funeral homes, etc., just in case family members do report the death. 

 

Background Information — FEP
https://secure.ssa.gov/poms.nsf/lnx/0302655001

[flexomike]

Just got an email from USPS that both the wife and my 7162 forms have cleared customs and on the way to next destination, mailed from Thailand on November 23rd, this is our second mailing of the forms, think they might have gotten the first ones but just too be safe mailed in another set

[Skeptic7]

1 hour ago, flexomike said:

Just got an email from USPS that both the wife and my 7162 forms have cleared customs and on the way to next destination, mailed from Thailand on November 23rd, this is our second mailing of the forms, think they might have gotten the first ones but just too be safe mailed in another set

What method of post from here prompts an email tracking from USPS? I've always used FedEx on the rare occasion needed to send something to the USA, so it's a serious question. Also I will need to send my first ever 7162 next year, so please keep us "posted" (haha) as to the result. 

[Pib]

1 hour ago, Skeptic7 said:

What method of post from here prompts an email tracking from USPS? I've always used FedEx on the rare occasion needed to send something to the USA, so it's a serious question. Also I will need to send my first ever 7162 next year, so please keep us "posted" (haha) as to the result. 

Just use the USPS Tracking website to enter the registered mail tracking number issued by the Thai Post Office then setup how you want to be notified of any changes by entering whatever email address you want to use.

https://tools.usps.com/go/TrackConfirmAction_input

Edited December 11, 2022 by Pib

[flexomike]

1 hour ago, Skeptic7 said:

What method of post from here prompts an email tracking from USPS? I've always used FedEx on the rare occasion needed to send something to the USA, so it's a serious question. Also I will need to send my first ever 7162 next year, so please keep us "posted" (haha) as to the result. 

just sent it by registered Thai Postal, think it is 350 baht for this service, went to USPS site and entered the tracking numbers, they have a drop down where you can get informed by email on the progress

 

[paulbrow]

I sent mine FedEx to the SSA W-B address, apparently successfully. Anything that could impede delivery of any significant income, for me, is worth a few extra bucks to insure delivery.

[WilliamBlaney]

Very helpful thread. Thank you, everybody. So sad that the topic is the cause of so much hassle that could so easily be eliminated. To summarize: I received the first Proof of Life notice last summer and sent it back via the Thai Post regular airmail service, complete with tracking (the little number on the tiny receipt) for 300 baht. Tracking showed the letter got to the BKK airport and then nothing else. Received the second notice on 28 November and sent it back via Thai Post EMS World service for 1550 baht. That package is still going through the system and can be tracked utilizing the USPS tracking service. However, the last dated entry is for 29 Nov., so yesterday I scanned the signed report and sent it via www.LetterStream.com, which utilizes USPS to start with and I'm currently tracking that letter to the Wilkes-Barre P.O. Box. This morning I found the physical street address for the Wilkes-Barre office and sent the original signed report via DHL. Lastly, I faxed the scanned signed report to the phone number provided by the Pacific South Morning Journal. This helpful advice provides the P.O. box and street address, as well as, the phone numbers (depending on the last two numbers of your SS number) of the SSA office in Wilkes-Barre where you can fax the scanned report: Options for submitting your 7162 Proof of Life form to SSA. Lastly, I plan on calling the SSA help line (1 (800) 772-1213) on Jan. 3 to learn the status of my account.

[elektrified]

On 12/11/2022 at 3:12 PM, flexomike said:

just sent it by registered Thai Postal, think it is 350 baht for this service, went to USPS site and entered the tracking numbers, they have a drop down where you can get informed by email on the progress

 

That's not good advice. They recommend sending it "tamadaa" (regular post). Many of the problems are because people sent it rong tabien (registered) myself included, and there is no government staff available to go to the P.O. and pick-up the post for two months - which is why so many got the 2nd letter.

[flexomike]

1 hour ago, elektrified said:

That's not good advice. They recommend sending it "tamadaa" (regular post). Many of the problems are because people sent it rong tabien (registered) myself included, and there is no government staff available to go to the P.O. and pick-up the post for two months - which is why so many got the 2nd letter.

Well if you don't send it by registered mail you have know way of knowing if it was received, until you don't get paid because they never got it. Taking a chance by sending with no tracking proof

[Pib]

47 minutes ago, flexomike said:

Well if you don't send it by registered mail you have know way of knowing if it was received, until you don't get paid because they never got it. Taking a chance by sending with no tracking proof

Personally, I would "not" use registered airmail to mail documents from Thailand to the U.S. unless a USPS tracking was critical to prove you mailed "something" and to show last known location of that "something."   I say "something got mailed" because registered mail does not reflect "what was mailed"; it only reflects something was mailed although the envelope/package could actually be empty.

 

And a tracking number showing your 7162/7161 is somewhere between Thailand and Wilkes Barre does zero to provide the SSA the required 7162/7161 as the SSA will not reinstate benefits just because you provide a tracking number that you supposedly mailed a 7162/7161....the SSA needs the actual 7162/7161....not a tracking number of "something/7162/7161" mailed to them.

I would not use registered airmail from Thailand to the U.S. simply because of my own personal controlled tests of mailing registered and regular airmail from Thailand to the U.S. (specifically to Texas and California...the registered airmail always took a lot longer to arrive...2-3 times longer that regular airmail).  And add-in the numerous posts from people in this and similar topics regarding how registered airmail frequently went MIA on it's way to Wilkes Barre.  It seems to go MIA between the NYC and Wilkes Barre....it gets to NYC fast enough but then frequently goes MIA trying to make that 120 mile trip from NYC to Wilkes Barre PA.   Maybe the USPS only uses turtles to transport mail between NYC and Wilkes Barre?

 

And if your registered or regular airmail does not arrive Wilkes Barre in time you will get a 2nd notice and later on another notice which is  suspension notice....so, you will know if your 7162/7161 arrived in time.  Not notice you are happy to receive but notice none the less....the only tracking that really counts.

 

Yeap, foreign registered airmail seems to all to often get bogged down/goes MIA within the USPS system; not the Thai Postal System.   

 

See one of my posts below talking this subject 

 

[lopburi3]

Although not specific to SS (actually to a bank PO box) the registered method not only delays receipt - it can take forever as firstly the actual post office must sign for letter and that means delivery when postmaster is available - which seems to be seldom with US civilian post office.  Then once he signs for someone with authority to sign from destination must queue to obtain (and suspect they just grab mail and do not even check for registered notice).  I spent several weeks after letter was in destination city before bank received and processed a check.  Normal mail to same PO box was never a problem and quickly received/processed.