Independence referendum: Scottish government loses indyref2 court case

[RuamRudy]

11 hours ago, vinny41 said:

Wasnt there a  referendum on that in 2011 where the UK voted NO by 67.90% and that includes the 63.64%  of votes from Scotland

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Results_of_the_2011_United_Kingdom_Alternative_Vote_referendum#Results_by_United_Kingdom_regions

We all lost on that day, and then we end up with ridiculous situations where the Tories can get an 80 seat majority with only 40% of the votes. It does make me chuckle when people talk about the UK being a democracy.

[Saanim]

But it would not be good for the world politics to accept a right for an independence, when the country wished so, would it be? Then it would admit that the Catalan independence was right. Not to speak about Crimea and the others.

 

Only the Kosovo was an exception, but did they vote?

  

[James105]

6 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Personally I prefer to own my obligations. Indeed, it's a better bargaining position. We will, after all, expect to receive a share of the UK's assets commensurate with our share of debt.

I think the UK leaving the EU is a better template.  You take your share of the burdens and have no claim on any assets, the same kind of arrangement the UK had with the EU.    Why would you think you would get a better deal than that?   If we are as nasty as you say we are then surely you must be expecting a terrible deal from leaving the UK?  

 

Your Nicola should really be honest with you and set expectations accordingly and tell you how much this is going to cost you.    She won't of course because apart from the extremists no-one would ever consider this if she was honest about this.   

[JonnyF]

22 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Personally I prefer to own my obligations. Indeed, it's a better bargaining position. We will, after all, expect to receive a share of the UK's assets commensurate with our share of debt.

Did you not read the title of this thread? It's not happening. Why continue to talk as if this is something that will happen? It's a fantasy.

[Bluespunk]

2 hours ago, herfiehandbag said:

And as they die out, they are replaced by other people who have grown older, become more reflective and formed their own views. Those views, formed over a considerable period may include a distaste for many aspects of the EU.

 

I don't know about you, but now in my sixties I have very different views on a number of subjects compared to those I held in my twenties.

I’m 57 and my views remain much as they were in my 20s, if anything I have become more convinced of them. 

[Bluespunk]

25 minutes ago, Saanim said:

But it would not be good for the world politics to accept a right for an independence, when the country wished so, would it be?

Yes. 

[RuamRudy]

33 minutes ago, James105 said:

I think the UK leaving the EU is a better template.  You take your share of the burdens and have no claim on any assets, the same kind of arrangement the UK had with the EU.    Why would you think you would get a better deal than that?   If we are as nasty as you say we are then surely you must be expecting a terrible deal from leaving the UK?  

 

Your Nicola should really be honest with you and set expectations accordingly and tell you how much this is going to cost you.    She won't of course because apart from the extremists no-one would ever consider this if she was honest about this.   

"If we are as nasty as you say we are...". Where did I say such a thing? 

 

As for your fantasy terms, they do make you sound bitter but a fantasy is all they will be.

[RuamRudy]

24 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

Did you not read the title of this thread? It's not happening. Why continue to talk as if this is something that will happen? It's a fantasy.

What is not happening? Independence? Did the SC rule on that too? 

[JonnyF]

9 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

What is not happening? Independence? Did the SC rule on that too? 

They ruled you can't have a referendum without the UK goverment's consent.

 

The UK government is not going to give consent, so it's over.

[James105]

8 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

"If we are as nasty as you say we are...". Where did I say such a thing? 

 

As for your fantasy terms, they do make you sound bitter but a fantasy is all they will be.

Yes fantasy indeed.   This of course will never come to pass as Scotland will not have another referendum for quite some time, and if in 30-40 years time they did try again then they would vote against independence... again.  The majority of Scottish people do not want to become significantly poorer just to fulfil someones ridiculous and misguided fantasy so would of course vote against it. 

[jak2002003]

What have some of you posters got against Scotland getting independence?

 

I can't see why you get so upset and mean about it if your not Scottish or don't live in Scotland.

 

 

[ozimoron]

2 hours ago, herfiehandbag said:

And as they die out, they are replaced by other people who have grown older, become more reflective and formed their own views. Those views, formed over a considerable period may include a distaste for many aspects of the EU.

 

I don't know about you, but now in my sixties I have very different views on a number of subjects compared to those I held in my twenties.

I can say as an old 60's flower child I still have exactly the same views as I did then. I think it was a great shame that the era looked so promising as heralding a new era but it was not to be. Most of those old hippies are now the same as the intolerant fossils that we disdained then. I'm just a little bit to the left of Karl Marx.

[ozimoron]

16 minutes ago, James105 said:

Yes fantasy indeed.   This of course will never come to pass as Scotland will not have another referendum for quite some time, and if in 30-40 years time they did try again then they would vote against independence... again.  The majority of Scottish people do not want to become significantly poorer just to fulfil someones ridiculous and misguided fantasy so would of course vote against it. 

How would they be poorer? Serious question because Northern Ireland seemed to be going great guns like time I bothered to look.

[ozimoron]

19 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

They ruled you can't have a referendum without the UK goverment's consent.

 

The UK government is not going to give consent, so it's over.

It's not over until the fat lady sings. I'm told that will happen at the next general election.

[JayClay]

17 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

You seem to be revelling in the fact that people are going to die

That is a rather unpleasant stance to take , not unexpected though 

 

It was not unexpected that somebody would try and twist my words. Death is a fact of the world we live in. My post was an 100% objective commentary on the situation as it exists. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

2 hours ago, herfiehandbag said:

And as they die out, they are replaced by other people who have grown older, become more reflective and formed their own views. Those views, formed over a considerable period may include a distaste for many aspects of the EU.

The people who grew older and voted for Brexit were generally looking through rose-tinted glasses at what they remember as the "good old days" before joining the EU, ignoring the fact that the world is a completely different place than it was back then.

 

The people who will be the older generation when we next join will have lived having originally been a member of the single market, enjoying visa free, hassle free travel and all the financial benefits it brings. Then it was all taken away from them. Therefore the reverse will be true.

 

I don't know if it'll take 5 years or 20, but eventually we'll rejoin, without all the special privileges we had the first time around. And the whole of the country will have to wonder what was it all for in the first place.

[Phulublub]

20 hours ago, JonnyF said:

Nah.

 

Sturgeon is just using that as an attempt to justify re-running the vote. She wants to ruin Scotland for her own personal ambition. She'd rather have total power over an unsuccessful country than limited power over a successful one. I don't think the Scots are silly enough to fall for it.

I lived in Scotland and campaigned against leaving the UK.  The major plank of my argument was that on gaining Independence, Scotland would have to re-apply for membership of the EU and would in n o way have been guaranteed anything tlike the same terms it enjoyed while a member as part of the UK.  Many others thought the same.

 

I did not think for one moment that the UK (well, much of Englandshire outside London) would be so monumentally stuid as to vote to leave the EU.  With that happening, the situation for an Independent Scotland changes vastly and yes, there should be another vote.

 

It is a sad but true fact that just 2 years after the 2016 vote, and simply because of demographics, enough of the older voters (who were statistically much more likely to have voted to leave) would have died, while enough of the 16 and 17 year olds (who were statistically much more likely to have voted to remain) would have reached voting age to make a remain result almost certain.  Such a huge decision should never have been made on such a small margin and I agree wholeheartedly with Nigel Farage who declared (pre-result) that 52-48 would not be decisive and we would need another referendum.   But hey, at least the NHS is now enjoying an extra £350m a week, and the oven ready turkeys have regained control of the sunny uplands.

 

PH

[Phulublub]

46 minutes ago, James105 said:

Yes fantasy indeed.   This of course will never come to pass as Scotland will not have another referendum for quite some time, and if in 30-40 years time they did try again then they would vote against independence... again.  The majority of Scottish people do not want to become significantly poorer just to fulfil someones ridiculous and misguided fantasy so would of course vote against it. 

Well a majority (just) of those who voted in 2016 made themselves significantly poorer by voting for a  misguided fantasy.

 

PH

Edited November 25, 2022 by Phulublub

[Phulublub]

1 hour ago, James105 said:

Your Nicola should really be honest with you and set expectations accordingly and tell you how much this is going to cost you.    She won't of course because apart from the extremists no-one would ever consider this if she was honest about this.

Change the name to Boris, and the referendum to Brexit.....

 

PH

[ozimoron]

3 minutes ago, Phulublub said:

and the oven ready turkeys have regained control of the sunny uplands.

 

1 minute ago, Phulublub said:

voting for a  isgided fantasy.

Que?

[HaoleBoy]

If a vote for Scotland's independence were to happen, what should the % be to gain independence?  Should it be a simple majority or something like 60% vote for?

 

I wondered the same for BREXIT ... A simple majority for such a huge change does not seem right.  The cost of change should be weighed in to justify the overall change it seems.

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, HaoleBoy said:

If a vote for Scotland's independence were to happen, what should the % be to gain independence?  Should it be a simple majority or something like 60% vote for?

 

I wondered the same for BREXIT ... A simple majority for such a huge change does not seem right.  The cost of change should be weighed in to justify the overall change it seems.

I think the percentage is less important than unanimity between the nations.

 

While some might scream about Scotland's 5 million people being able to veto the 55 million English, that's the price you pay for having a United Kingdom. Get it? UNITED.

Edited November 25, 2022 by ozimoron

[d4dang]

Scotch whiskey. Ban exports to England and the judges will tire of gin and free Scotland.

 

[RuamRudy]

34 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

They ruled you can't have a referendum without the UK goverment's consent.

 

The UK government is not going to give consent, so it's over.

Yes, a democratic outrage, but the representatives of the country next door are going to deny the mandate handed to our representatives. That's going to go down well. 

To be honest, the SC ruling was a forgone conclusion. What it does, however, is amplify (as if that was actually necessary) how Scotland has no say in the direction of the UK. 

With northern Irish support for the Union dwindling by the day (majority support,I believe, for reunification) and Wales equally realising that the UK doesn't work in their favour either, it's not only the Scots who need to do all the heavy lifting. A 3 pronged will be much more effective.

And don't discount the forces from within. The English independence movement may be small but it's growing, and it's fostering ties with it's Scottish and Welsh brethren. Together, we can end the Union, I am sure.

[James105]

16 minutes ago, Phulublub said:

I lived in Scotland and campaigned against leaving the UK.  The major plank of my argument was that on gaining Independence, Scotland would have to re-apply for membership of the EU and would in n o way have been guaranteed anything tlike the same terms it enjoyed while a member as part of the UK.  Many others thought the same.

 

I did not think for one moment that the UK (well, much of Englandshire outside London) would be so monumentally stuid as to vote to leave the EU.  With that happening, the situation for an Independent Scotland changes vastly and yes, there should be another vote.

 

It is a sad but true fact that just 2 years after the 2016 vote, and simply because of demographics, enough of the older voters (who were statistically much more likely to have voted to leave) would have died, while enough of the 16 and 17 year olds (who were statistically much more likely to have voted to remain) would have reached voting age to make a remain result almost certain.  Such a huge decision should never have been made on such a small margin and I agree wholeheartedly with Nigel Farage who declared (pre-result) that 52-48 would not be decisive and we would need another referendum.   But hey, at least the NHS is now enjoying an extra £350m a week, and the oven ready turkeys have regained control of the sunny uplands.

 

PH

1.  The NHS is enjoying significantly more than the promised £350m per week, they are just too wasteful to make it count.

2.  If everyone in Scotland who was eligible to vote actually did vote in the EU ref, and those who did not vote voted to remain, that would have been enough for the UK vote to be Remain.   Blame your fellow Scots for the outcome, not the English.   It's Scotland's fault they are being dragged out of the EU supported explicitly by those who voted to leave in Scotland, and implicitly by those who did not vote at all.  

[RuamRudy]

46 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

How would they be poorer? Serious question because Northern Ireland seemed to be going great guns like time I bothered to look.

Sunak just counted on an £80 billion windfall from North Sea oil so we aren't as poor as some suggest.

Reminds me of a joke - geologists are perplexed as the size of North Sea oil reserves grow and shrink in direct relation to the strength of feeling towards independence.

[Bluespunk]

1 hour ago, JayClay said:

 

I don't know if it'll take 5 years or 20, but eventually we'll rejoin, without all the special privileges we had the first time around. And the whole of the country will have to wonder what was it all for in the first place.

A lot already are wondering. 

[JonnyF]

1 hour ago, ozimoron said:

It's not over until the fat lady sings. I'm told that will happen at the next general election.

You think Labour would support another referendum?

[Mavideol]

20 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Scotland is the UK  , Scotland is part of the U.K and the U.K decides , that is democracy .

  Scotland were given the opportunity to leave the U.K and the people of Scotland voted against  leaving 

if some voted to stay in the UK was because the UK was parts of the EU since the UK is no longer part of the EU a new vote should take place, that's democracy.... BTW how did Scotland voted on Brexit issue  555

Edited November 25, 2022 by Mavideol

[Mavideol]

Unfortunately nothing Good will happen until the Tories clean their messy house  555

Boris Johnson and Liz Truss in planning rebellion challenge to Rishi Sunak

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/11/24/boris-johnson-liz-truss-planning-rebellion-challenge-rishi-sunak/

Boris Johnson and Liz Truss join forces against Rishi Sunak's planning rules

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1701257/boris-johnson-liz-truss-tory-rebellion-rishi-sunak-planning-rules

 

Johnson and Truss join rebels against Sunak keeping new onshore wind ban

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/nov/24/boris-johnson-and-liz-truss-join-rebels-against-rishi-sunak-keeping-new-onshore-wind-ban

 

Edited November 25, 2022 by Mavideol

[Jai Dee]

An off-topic homophobic troll post and a couple of replies have been removed.