Germany arrests 25 accused of plotting coup

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, Etaoin Shrdlu said:

I thought I provided an example from 50 years ago when I mentioned the Baader-Meinhof Gang in my first comment. I think he did say "never" about threats from the left in his post. Perhaps I misunderstood.

I am posting in the wrong thread, sorry.

[Pla Simon]

1 minute ago, ozimoron said:

You might think it's balanced but you ignored the trial itself.

 

You made a claim of fact. That contradicts "In your opinion". You can't claim a fact and then hide behind "IMO".

I've got no idea of what you're talking about, and bear in mind, I am talking English instead of German - I'm struggling with your interpretation.

 

2 hours ago, JCauto said:

The "Far Left" is a fantasy that was invented to make people forget just how extreme the Right has become

Regardless of the story - is this to be taken as a fact ?

[Pla Simon]

Nor that your statement is incorrect, of course there are radicals on all sides, and even some sides that we as normal people probably don't even know exist. 

 

Right - thankyou.

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, Pla Simon said:

Nor that your statement is incorrect, of course there are radicals on all sides, and even some sides that we as normal people probably don't even know exist. 

 

Right - thankyou.

Should we call ghost busters?

[candide]

The far-left which was adhering to the principle of taking power by revolution was communist (Trotski style) and it vanished after the failure of the Soviet Union. Nearly nobody is still believing in revolutions. The far left has since that time mutated into green, antifa, woke, alternative communities, etc...

[Pla Simon]

1 hour ago, JCauto said:

This is to me problematic - not about yourself personally, as I don't know you nor have I recalled any posts of yours. Nor that your statement is incorrect, of course there are radicals on all sides, and even some sides that we as normal people probably don't even know exist. 

What's problematic is that here is an unambiguous article about a clear threat from the Right and, in all places, in Germany where it all went so bad in the past. An article that points out how this is just another example of the threats to democracy that are all emerging around the same time and from the same general political direction. The response of many from the Right is to downplay the seriousness of the incident and then to engage in "whataboutism". Your post was classic "whataboutism". Sure, there are some Left radicals/extremists that exist in this world. Why are you even mentioning them? What did they have to do with this incident? Why bring them up unless there's been a concerted effort from the Left to overthrow democratically elected governments? 

This is why I responded to your post. It is the same reason why we Lefties get upset with "All Lives Matter". Sure, of course, that was never in question and was never THE question. It's raised to reduce the impact of the BLM movement by trivializing what they're fighting against and it's raised by people who are not and have never been threatened in the same way. 

Excuse my tardy reply - housework completed and a pot of ganja tea simmering.

 

To me it's not problematic -

 

I'm always up for fair play - and I'm happy for you to have your own viewpoint - I must be out of date on whataboutism. I alluded to extremities on all sides, as a balance to an inconsistancy I saw. Extremes are different to different people, in different ways.

 

Proclivity sees the precipitation of powerful political movements, and their tangible affects / effects, from both sides.

 

I'm in no doubt that extremist elements are everywhere in society - but the ultra leaning are usually in a minority. I'm more interested in the catalyst of such an event - the cognitive - everyone has their own justification for an action - this is my fascination.

 

Here's a bit about me - 

 

Born in the U.K. - 1 of 12 - I've travelled almost all of my life, and have lived in SE. Asia for around 30 Years now - harmoniously, without religious or political discourse - I prefer to transcend ontological impasse.

 

If you're looking for posts, I'm not on here much - I like to limit my time on the internet, and the anomie it nurtures. Mine are usually <deleted> one liners, without connotational malice.

[ozimoron]

3 minutes ago, Pla Simon said:

Excuse my tardy reply - housework completed and a pot of ganja tea simmering.

 

To me it's not problematic -

 

I'm always up for fair play - and I'm happy for you to have your own viewpoint - I must be out of date on whataboutism. I alluded to extremities on all sides, as a balance to an inconsistancy I saw. Extremes are different to different people, in different ways.

 

Proclivity sees the precipitation of powerful political movements, and their tangible affects / effects, from both sides.

 

I'm in no doubt that extremist elements are everywhere in society - but the ultra leaning are usually in a minority. I'm more interested in the catalyst of such an event - the cognitive - everyone has their own justification for an action - this is my fascination.

 

Here's a bit about me - 

 

Born in the U.K. - 1 of 12 - I've travelled almost all of my life, and have lived in SE. Asia for around 30 Years now - harmoniously, without religious or political discourse - I prefer to transcend ontological impasse.

 

If you're looking for posts, I'm not on here much - I like to limit my time on the internet, and the anomie it nurtures. Mine are usually <deleted> one liners, without connotational malice.

Nevertheless, your false equivalence of the issue belonging to both sides is manifestly incorrect and you attracted push back for it. More objectivity would further enhance your peaceful life.

[Pla Simon]

1 hour ago, ozimoron said:

Should we call ghost busters?

I responded to a concession by the op - I've got no idea what you mean.

[ozimoron]

Just now, Pla Simon said:

I responded to a concession by the op - I've got no idea what you mean.

A clue might be to read your post I replied to.

 

Below is a throwaway comment with no argument in support or substantiation. It's risible and I responded that way.

 

"of course there are radicals on all sides, and even some sides that we as normal people probably don't even know exist. "

[Pattaya Spotter]

Funny seeing these larping cosplay characters being taken seriously by the authorities...I guess it feeds their "democracy in peril" narrative they keep pushing on a gulible public ???? 

Edited December 8, 2022 by Pattaya Spotter

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, Pattaya Spotter said:

Funny seeing these larping cosplay characters being taken seriously by the authorities...I guess it feeds their "democracy in peril" narrative they keep pushing on a gulible public ???? 

They should have been ignored?

[Pla Simon]

5 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

A clue might be to read your post I replied to.

 

Below is a throwaway comment with no argument in support or substantiation. It's risible and I responded that way.

 

"of course there are radicals on all sides, and even some sides that we as normal people probably don't even know exist. "

That quote was from JCauto - I was responding to him.

 

Perhaps you should direct your post towards him ?

[ozimoron]

4 minutes ago, Pla Simon said:

That quote was from JCauto - I was responding to him.

 

Perhaps you should direct your post towards him ?

No, it's a public forum. I'll continue to criticise or boost posts as I see fit.

[Pla Simon]

1 hour ago, ozimoron said:

Nevertheless, your false equivalence of the issue belonging to both sides is manifestly incorrect and you attracted push back for it. More objectivity would further enhance your peaceful life.

Is this neverthelessism ?

 

You would do well not to patronise me - I am well versed in the King's - Years of classical studies and remain steadfastly alakefic to unnecessary diatribe.  You would do well also not to try to compel speech or perspective., which seems to be a reoccuring trait of yours.

 

I was under the impression this is supposed to be an intellectual arena ?

 

There was no false equivalence - it was a response to a self confessed 'lefty' s' verbatim., as I quote:-

 

"The "Far Left" is a fantasy that was invented to make people forget just how extreme the Right has become"

 

which is obviously a flawed bias, and if you want to play pedantic antagonist, a statement unrelated to the factual issue at hand.

 

The guy conceeded the point in an honourable fashion, and I thanked him.

 

If you would read my subsequent posts, you would realise your interpretation of events is completely incorrect.

 

I fail to see how I could take a more objectified view, but seeing as you want to make such suggestions, do you have any thought on the weaponisation of nazi guilt as a proposition ?

 

Pertaining to the the far left being a fantasy, do you have a view on advocacy for initiation of gender reassignment surgery on minors as a proposition ?

 

I would be a fool to assume this wasn't to be classed as an act of far right extreme ideology, or to assume the perpetrators motives without evidence, but I would suggest it's reactionary, to some degree.

Edited December 8, 2022 by Pla Simon

[Pla Simon]

47 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

A clue might be to read your post I replied to.

 

Below is a throwaway comment with no argument in support or substantiation. It's risible and I responded that way.

 

"of course there are radicals on all sides, and even some sides that we as normal people probably don't even know exist. "

I will say again - that throw away comment was another poster's quote.

 

JCauto's quote.

 

37 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

No, it's a public forum. I'll continue to criticise or boost posts as I see fit.

You make no sense to me. 

 

I cannot engage with your intellect - not for the want of trying.

 

Goodbye.

[ozimoron]

Just now, Pla Simon said:

Is this neverthelessism ?

 

You would do well not to patronise me - I am well versed in the King's - Years of classical studies and remain steadfastly alakefic to unnecessary diatribe.  You would do well also not to try to compel speech or perspective., which seems to be a reoccuring trait of yours.

 

I was under the impression this is supposed to be an intellectual arena ?

 

There was no false equivalence - it was a response to a self confessed 'lefty' s' verbatim., as I quote:-

 

"The "Far Left" is a fantasy that was invented to make people forget just how extreme the Right has become"

 

which is obviously a flawed bias, and if you want to play pedantic antagonist, a statement unrelated to the factual issue at hand.

 

The guy conceeded the point in an honourable fashion, and I thanked him.

 

If you would read my subsequent posts, you would realise your interpretation of events is completely incorrect.

 

I fail to see how I could take a more objectified view, but seeing as you want to make such suggestions, do you have any thought on the weaponisation of nazi guilt as a proposition ?

 

Pertaining to the the far left being a fantasy, do you have a view on advocacy for initiation of gender assignment surgery on minors as a proposition ?

 

I would be a fool to assume this wasn't to be classed as an act of far right extreme ideology, or to assume the perpetrators motives without evidence, but I would suggest it's reactionary, to some degree.

There is reasoned, substantiated argument and there is unsupported claims of a fact.

 

You're engaging in projection bordering on flaming.

[Red Forever]

18 hours ago, internationalism said:

some 3000 police to catch some 25 suspects at their homes, that is 120 cops per case.

Strangely too many cops, even if suspects were armed (but they were not).

That doesn't sound right

25 right wing scumbags banged up out of harm's way sounds just right to me.

Kudos to German Plod.

[rudi49jr]

18 hours ago, internationalism said:

Strangely too many cops, even if suspects were armed (but they were not).

They did find a huge cache of weapons at the prince’s residence, though, so it’s not as if they were dealing with boy scouts. 

[internationalism]

At the time of first press releases there were nothing about arms caches or any arms whatsoever. 
As police watched them for over a year they had clue who might be armed. Out of 25 only the ringleader had them and he was not able to use it. It was stored at his place for somebody else. There were not likely to be explosive materials, which can be all detonated, but guns. 
 

Edited December 8, 2022 by internationalism

[candide]

Some explanations about this movement here:

 

In a large-scale raid, German police targeted dozens of individuals from the Reichsbürger scene who were suspected of planning a coup. What kind of movement is this — and what threat does it pose to democracy?

https://www.dw.com/en/how-dangerous-are-germanys-reichsbürger/a-64020300

[rudi49jr]

43 minutes ago, internationalism said:

It was stored at his place for somebody else.

Of course it was. And you know that how?

[Mac Mickmanus]

7 hours ago, JCauto said:

Yep, you sure are. Here's an article where they describe arresting a Far-Right plot to literally overthrow the German government and replace it with Fascists, and yet somehow or other there's some statement about the Far Left? Who? Where? What did they have to do with this? Where have the Far Left been organizing and undertaking coup d'etats like we have seen in two major Western democracies in the last two years? Answer: nowhere, nobody, never. The "Far Left" is a fantasy that was invented to make people forget just how extreme the Right has become.

They have been too busy removing statues and gluing themselves to things 

[Eleftheros]

3 hours ago, ozimoron said:

There is reasoned, substantiated argument and there is unsupported claims of a fact.

 

You're engaging in projection bordering on flaming.

This is one of those irregular verbs, isn't it?

 

I engage in substantiated argument

You peddle unsupported claims

He engages in projection bordering on flaming.

[rudi49jr]

4 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

They have been too busy removing statues and gluing themselves to things 

Wow, so they were a clear and present danger to democracy. Not.

 

In the meantime, a bunch of right wing nutbags stormed the Capitol, with a view of hanging Mike Pence, Nancy Pelosi and possibly a few others, and overturning the result of a fair election because their guy Trump had lost. And now these German right wing nutbags wanted to storm the parliament building and stage a coup. 
 

Spot the differences. Which group would you say is more dangerous, the far left (busy removing statues and gluing themselves to things), or the far right (busy stagings coups d’état)?

[Mac Mickmanus]

2 minutes ago, rudi49jr said:

 

 

In the meantime, a bunch of right wing nutbags stormed the Capitol, with a view of hanging Mike Pence, Nancy Pelosi and possibly a few others, and overturning the result of a fair election because their guy Trump had lost. 
 

 

Really, when did that happen ?????

[rudi49jr]

3 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Really, when did that happen ?????

Goodbye.

[BusyB]

14 hours ago, pacovl46 said:

Like 25 people could overthrow a government and take control of a country...

 

Doomed to fail from the getgo! 

Yes but if they'd gone ahead there could have been a lot of dead. Reading their plans, policies and intentions they obviously had no idea how stupid their idiotic little pipe dreams were. They expected to be able to convince the masses and military to back them. Clueless. Pack of spaffers. But nasty, spiteful and dangerous spaffers.

[tgw]

13 hours ago, ozimoron said:

Horst Mahler, a founding RAF member, is now a vocal Neo-Nazi and Holocaust denier

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Army_Faction

left and right are almost insignificant when it comes to the extreme. people have been known to switch from extreme left to extreme right and back. I think the main common denominator is the "extreme". left and right just provided them with excuses to do what they wanted to do.

Edited December 8, 2022 by tgw

[heybruce]

12 hours ago, Pattaya Spotter said:

Funny seeing these larping cosplay characters being taken seriously by the authorities...I guess it feeds their "democracy in peril" narrative they keep pushing on a gulible public ???? 

Did you bother to read the full article?  The stuff about planning to storm Parliament, ties to Qanon and the earlier plans to kidnap the health minister?  How about the paragraph:

 

"The plotters are said to include members of the extremist Reichsbürger [Citizens of the Reich] movement, which has long been in the sights of German police over violent attacks and racist and antisemitic conspiracy theories. "

 

A little further research would have told you that the Reichsbürger movement has 21,000 members (at last count), 10% are considered violent, and 500 have gun licenses (one suspects a larger number have access to illegal guns) and they committed over 1000 extremist criminal acts in 2021.  https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-63889792

 

Yet you don't think they should be taken seriously?  Curious.

[ozimoron]

CNN TV are reporting that the number arrested is now over 50 with more coming.