Friend (US Citizen) in ICU, no savings or insurance - don't know what to do for the best

[The Fugitive]

44 minutes ago, nigelforbes said:

Every aspect of allowing foreigners to remain here is intended to benefit the economy, no measure will ever be enacted  that doesn't accomplish that.

Very true. We live here by choice, why should Thailand subsidise our healthcare?

[pomchop]

There has been no clarity on what happens if we stop paying the bills (obviously a hospital isn't going to tell you that it's "ok" to do that) or what happens if we try to transfer him elsewhere, or even how that would be logistically possible.

 

 

Seems to me that the most viable option is to just tell hospital in no uncertain terms them there is no more $$ to pay the bill and then the hospital will do whatever it is they do in such a circumstance....i doubt it is the first time that they have had a critically ill farang in the hospital that had no $$....I think the hospital would likely contact his embassy and in meantime keep providing care.  Hard to imagine any hospital would just dump him on the street to die.  As long as the hospital thinks there is a chance that OP or someone will come up with the $$ they are not likely to offer any suggestions so need to be firm that there is NO $$. 

 

Tough move for OP, and kudos for going above and beyond call of duty but there are limits to what anyone can do....what if he hangs on for months and OP ends up bankrupt and then can't pay HIS future bills?

[Sheryl]

Mire off topic posts removed. 

[Sheryl]

Another off topic post removed. I really do nto want to have to lock this topic. but will have to if people keep this up.

 

Either post something of direct relevance and practical use to the OP's problem or do not post.

[Northstar1]

16 hours ago, 4MyEgo said:

Why do you think they came here for, more than likely it is more affordable to live here than in their own countries thanks to governments selling everyone short, just look at the cost of living back in your home country vs living here, do you think pensioners eat well, or is canned dog food back in the menu for them, i.e. after they have paid rent ?

 

Some are not so fortunate, life's journey hasn't been kid to them, e.g. they could have been divorced, with say 3 kids, wife gets the lot (lottery), i.e. his life's savings and hard work has gone down the drain, seen that many times because of such laws that don't recognise the male as anything more than a saviour of the government so that the wife and kids don't fall onto the welfare system costing the government money. There can be other factors as well outside of their control, then there is as you say, no proper planning and money, always to sides of the coin.

 

Thailand is the perfect retirement destination for pensioners who can get by, however without insurance, when and if something does go wrong, it does end up on the Thai's, but let us not forget, they do contribute to the Thai economy spending their pensions every single month of the year while they live here.

 

Perhaps the Thai government should look at including retirees onto their health system for an annual fee, maybe then things would balance out, especially for those that cannot afford health insurance or cannot obtain health insurance, can't be a one way street, although it is.

 

As I mentioned previously, compassion doesn't cost anything.

It doesn’t take away from the fact. If you don’t have the insurance or money to live abroad, then don’t do it!

just because it’s cheaper to live abroad, you can’t expect to be taken care of when things go south!

the west has such places to take care of the elderly.

no compassion from me.

it’s different if you have a wife , etc, someone to take care of yourself when the grim reaper stands above you, but to leave your country because it’s simply cheaper doesn’t make it right for the Thais to have to take care of them.

that’s why the 400k to 800k is in place.

another rubber visa or overstay?

just because dads old and broke doesn’t make it right to send him to Thailand, 

thailand has become a dumping ground for a certain demographic of people, retired or not.

this is exactly why they are looking at a higher class of tourist- expat etc.

can’t blame them, would anyone want these types to move next door to your house in the west or anywhere for that matter?

compassion is free, when it’s warranted, not in this case.

 

[Lorry]

3 hours ago, Sheryl said:

Another off topic post removed. I really do nto want to have to lock this topic. but will have to if people keep this up.

 

Either post something of direct relevance and practical use to the OP's problem or do not post.

It's 4 days since OP. 

For any practical advice,  it would be good to know

- is he still on a ventilator?

- how much are the daily running cost now?

- how is the prognosis? How long more may he have to stay on a ventilator or in ICU?

- what steps have been undertaken so far to solve the problem? 

[Sheryl]

20 minutes ago, Lorry said:

It's 4 days since OP. 

For any practical advice,  it would be good to know

- is he still on a ventilator?

- how much are the daily running cost now?

- how is the prognosis? How long more may he have to stay on a ventilator or in ICU?

- what steps have been undertaken so far to solve the problem? 

OP made numerous posts in this thread just yesterday.

[d4dang]

The Thai gov't used to have strict rules about TB. I am not sure about the present. For my first Non B I had to get a chest x-ray from a gov't hospital.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 1/3/2023 at 5:06 AM, OneMoreFarang said:

It's his problem!

It seems the guy relied on you, and maybe others, for too long already.

His life is his problem and not your problem. 

Don't make his problem your problem. You helped him already a lot. 

If he dies, then that happens because of his decisions. You are not to blame for his decisions.

Don't make it your problem!

 

I have a harder opinion, but probably too extreme to post it, and your post comes close to it. Basically everyone dies eventually.

 

Perhaps being a nurse has made me more realistic than most on here. Comes a time for everyone that friends and relations have to accept that it's time to say goodbye to them.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 1/3/2023 at 4:14 AM, NoDisplayName said:

Not working?  On what kind of visa?

If it's a non-O, what about his 400K/800K in the bank?

 

Isn't that exactly relevant to this discussion? If he was on 400,000 he should have a Thai family to take care of him.

[Damrongsak]

Regarding cost in a Thai government hospital, I happened to go to the ER at Loei Hospital in the middle of October for an intestinal issue.  No ICU or special stuff, but I was in the ER quite awhile and had a couple X-rays and a CT scan.  I stayed overnight as a precaution.  The bill came to 16,500 Baht.  14,000 of that was the scan/x-rays alone, I think.  They did tell me that would be pricey in advance.  Everything else was dirt cheap.

[The Fugitive]

6 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I have a harder opinion, but probably too extreme to post it, and your post comes close to it. Basically everyone dies eventually.

 

Perhaps being a nurse has made me more realistic than most on here. Comes a time for everyone that friends and relations have to accept that it's time to say goodbye to them.

As a nurse have you ever seen (or been reliably informed) of any patient suffering unnecessarily prior to death in Thailand? I certainly haven't. I believe that the OP needn't worry on that score.

[pomchop]

So what happened since OP on Monday?  Did it get resolved?

[Sheryl]

8 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Isn't that exactly relevant to this discussion? If he was on 400,000 he should have a Thai family to take care of him.

It has been made clear that there is no money and no family.

[Sheryl]

8 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I have a harder opinion, but probably too extreme to post it, and your post comes close to it. Basically everyone dies eventually.

 

Perhaps being a nurse has made me more realistic than most on here. Comes a time for everyone that friends and relations have to accept that it's time to say goodbye to them.

His condition (TB and pneumonia) is potentially curable and there is no indication he is particulatly old. 20 years working  in Thailand, could easily be in his 50's or 60's.  We do not have enough information yet (and perhaps too soon for  anyone to know) to conclude his condition is terminal. Might be, might not be.  

[Sheryl]

6 hours ago, Damrongsak said:

Regarding cost in a Thai government hospital, I happened to go to the ER at Loei Hospital in the middle of October for an intestinal issue.  No ICU or special stuff, but I was in the ER quite awhile and had a couple X-rays and a CT scan.  I stayed overnight as a precaution.  The bill came to 16,500 Baht.  14,000 of that was the scan/x-rays alone, I think.  They did tell me that would be pricey in advance.  Everything else was dirt cheap.

The level of care this man has required (ICU, ventilator etc) would have  easily run to hundreds of thousands of baht in a government hospital.  

[Sheryl]

More off topic  as well as bickering pil9sts removed.

[NoDisplayName]

11 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Isn't that exactly relevant to this discussion? If he was on 400,000 he should have a Thai family to take care of him.

Retirement visa without monthly income requires 800k before/after the extension, can be reduced to 400K for about half the year.

 

OP claims there is no money in the bank and no personal assets.

[Sheryl]

19 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

Retirement visa without monthly income requires 800k before/after the extension, can be reduced to 400K for about half the year.

 

OP claims there is no money in the bank and no personal assets.

 

This.

 

And there is absolutely no reason to think this person is on a retirement visa.  He has been working in Thailand until recent loss of job.

 

Visa status is irrelevant. He has no money (or none left at this point).

[jts-khorat]

7 hours ago, Sheryl said:

His condition (TB and pneumonia) is potentially curable

 

Thank you, Sheryl, for your calm and fact-based approach to the many health issues coming up in this forum.

 

Very often one looses perspective when discussing, as many (me included) naturally tend to bring forward a more pessimistic view. TB is a really big problem in Thailand, especially in the rural areas.

 

In truth, there have been also good outcomes which I witnessed, some of them (a neighbor and very good friend of my wife being one example) bordering on the miraculous for the non-health-professional outsider. I am sure in a major hospital in Bangkok, they will have a very good handle on necessary clinical procedures, so one can hope for the best.

 

In the case of the OP, being friend to a person who seems -- from the very little information we have -- to currently be in a rather disorganized state of his life (no work, no money, no insurance, no family back in the west able to help and possibly also no Thai family here), I still think it prudent to be prepared for a situation where things should be in order... if only for his own peace of mind and closure, having done everything that could be done.

 

If things then turn out to be less grim, all the better, as his friend will then have this preparation ready in case of the next health emergency.

[thaibeachlovers]

17 hours ago, The Fugitive said:

As a nurse have you ever seen (or been reliably informed) of any patient suffering unnecessarily prior to death in Thailand? I certainly haven't. I believe that the OP needn't worry on that score.

IMO anyone kept alive only because of the machines is suffering, unless sedated.

Not having worked in a Thai hospital I can't speak on specifics, but don't expect qualified nurses to be hand holding and soothing brows etc. My wife had to sleep under her mother's bed to take care of her. I had an op in a private hospital in Thailand and the only time I saw a qualified nurse was escorting a Dr or giving out the drugs. Personal cares were given by aides.

[thaibeachlovers]

15 hours ago, Sheryl said:

It has been made clear that there is no money and no family.

I was responding to another poster. I wasn't suggesting it was an option.

I do understand that it's another western person that thought they could live in LOS without being able to afford it if it went wrong.

I left the country I loved and wanted to live rest of my life in because I knew I couldn't afford health insurance. I didn't expect others to assist me in a catastrophic event.

 

I could continue, but perhaps I should leave it at that.

[The Fugitive]

5 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I was responding to another poster. I wasn't suggesting it was an option.

I do understand that it's another western person that thought they could live in LOS without being able to afford it if it went wrong.

I left the country I loved and wanted to live rest of my life in because I knew I couldn't afford health insurance. I didn't expect others to assist me in a catastrophic event.

 

I could continue, but perhaps I should leave it at that.

Appreciate your honesty and sense of responsibility.

[The Fugitive]

6 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

IMO anyone kept alive only because of the machines is suffering, unless sedated.

Not having worked in a Thai hospital I can't speak on specifics, but don't expect qualified nurses to be hand holding and soothing brows etc. My wife had to sleep under her mother's bed to take care of her. I had an op in a private hospital in Thailand and the only time I saw a qualified nurse was escorting a Dr or giving out the drugs. Personal cares were given by aides.

I agree about the machines. I was trying to reassure the OP (& myself) that when the time comes there will be a good chance of appropriate medication being administered. I've witnessed staff shortages and qualified nurses giving paracetamol instead of morphine because they've only just arrived on that ward and don't have time to read patient notes. 

[In Full Agreement]

 

 

This is a clear case of the need for legal euthanasia.  Even under the best of circumstances, there's a complete absence of quality of life for the man.  Even if he survives this episode, it's only a matter of time until he's back in the same situation..

 

 

[indyo]

getting too big for you, why do not contact his embassy at this point, his life is at risk so his country has to take over. 

[IvorBiggun2]

20 minutes ago, In Full Agreement said:

This is a clear case of the need for legal euthanasia.  Even under the best of circumstances, there's a complete absence of quality of life for the man.  Even if he survives this episode, it's only a matter of time until he's back in the same situation..

 

Below as per stated in the OP. 

 

Quote

If we take him home, he will certainly die in a horrific way (essentially drowning in sputum)

 

Edited January 6, 2023 by IvorBiggun2

[Sheryl]

2 hours ago, In Full Agreement said:

 

 

This is a clear case of the need for legal euthanasia.  Even under the best of circumstances, there's a complete absence of quality of life for the man.  Even if he survives this episode, it's only a matter of time until he's back in the same situation..

 

 

 

I fail to see any reason for these statements based on the medical information so far available.

 

All we know is that following treatment for TB, he developed pneumonia. Which is a treatable condition.  At last report his condition had improved/stabilized.

 

While it is possible complications will set in that change the prognosis we have no such information.

 

In any event the subject is not what medical decisions to make but how to deal with the fact that OP is unable to pay for his medical care.

 

 

[Sheryl]

2 hours ago, indyo said:

getting too big for you, why do not contact his embassy at this point, his life is at risk so his country has to take over. 

OP has stated that he has already contacted the Embassy. The Embassy's role is only to help contact family in the US, which they have done. The US Embassy (and most Embassies) does not provide financial assistance nor arrange medivacs etc. Not their role.

[indyo]

1 hour ago, Sheryl said:

OP has stated that he has already contacted the Embassy. The Embassy's role is only to help contact family in the US, which they have done. The US Embassy (and most Embassies) does not provide financial assistance nor arrange medivacs etc. Not their role.

yes right, I did not get was US citizen.