Germany no longer reliant on Russian energy.

[thaibeachlovers]

10 minutes ago, billd766 said:

I believe they did and I think it will staying in operation until something better comes along.

 

I sympathise, but it is still a PITA.

 

A little snippet I found on the BBC News website for Australia this morning.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-64248564

 

 

t's a new hydrogen-diesel hybrid engine affectionately known as "baby number two" that could help to decarbonise some of Australia's heaviest industries.

The test rig is large - it has its own room adjoining a lab and looks at first glance like many other large motors, but beneath its metallic skin could lie game-changing technology.

Engineers at the University of New South Wales (UNSW) say they have successfully modified a conventional diesel engine to use a mix of hydrogen and a small amount of diesel, claiming their patented technology has cut carbon dioxide (CO2) emissions by more than 85%.

 

 

IMO hydrogen IS the way to go. If the amount of money spent on battery cars had been spent on hydrogen, that'd probably be universal already.

 

If they want to use battery cars, they should have made it possible to do a battery swap so don't have to recharge on a long journey. That'd work for taxis and other vehicles in cities that do a high mileage every day as well. Strange that they didn't come up with that idea long ago.

[billd766]

36 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

IMO hydrogen IS the way to go. If the amount of money spent on battery cars had been spent on hydrogen, that'd probably be universal already.

 

If they want to use battery cars, they should have made it possible to do a battery swap so don't have to recharge on a long journey. That'd work for taxis and other vehicles in cities that do a high mileage every day as well. Strange that they didn't come up with that idea long ago.

I think that the biggest problem with hydrogen today is the storage both on/in the vehicle and bulk storage.

[thaibeachlovers]

4 minutes ago, billd766 said:

I think that the biggest problem with hydrogen today is the storage both on/in the vehicle and bulk storage.

The use of hydrogen is not new, so that isn't a huge problem to solve. London had some hydrogen powered buses a while back.

 

https://www.london.gov.uk/press-releases/mayoral/englands-first-hydrogen-double-deckers-launched

[Hummin]

17 hours ago, placeholder said:

In case you haven't heard, there's a war going on. Wars usually generate all kinds of unpleasant consequences. One of the positive consequences of this dreadful war is that it has accelerated Germany's plans for renewables.

We know now, Germanys depending on Russia for gas, was most likely the main reason for Russias invasion of Ukraine last year in the middle of the winter! 

 

And Europes citizens paying now a high prize for electricity.

Edited January 20, 2023 by Hummin

[placeholder]

2 hours ago, JonnyF said:

Obama has a history of using threats over trade deals to try and get his own way.

 

I still remember the "back of the queue for a trade deal" comments he made that helped push Brexit over the line ????. Thanks Barack.

I'm so delighted that you brought that up.  What does Obama's threat to the UK tell you about his attitude towards the EU? Anything? Because what it would tell any rational observer is  that Obama was very pro-EU. And, of course, Obama was very popular in the EU. Whereas Trump threatened the EU over Nato,, slammed the EU for protectionism, and cheered on Britain's withdrawal from the EU. You don't think this was present to the minds of Trump's audience in 2018?

What's more less than 3 months after this speech, Trump imposed a tariff on steel from the EU. Supposedly for the sake of national security!

Edited January 20, 2023 by placeholder

[heybruce]

2 hours ago, JonnyF said:

Obama has a history of using threats over trade deals to try and get his own way.

 

I still remember the "back of the queue for a trade deal" comments he made that helped push Brexit over the line ????. Thanks Barack.

When the UK withdrew from the EU it withdrew from the EU's existing trade deals.  That meant starting over from scratch, with all the politics and lobbying in both countries that trade deal negotiations always entail.  Did you think a UK trade deal would somehow avoid that?  Did the you think the US would put all ongoing trade negotiations on hold to work exclusively with the UK?  President Obama was explaining the reality of the situation.

 

Trump, on the other hand, had a history of screwing everyone, including EU and NATO allies, with tariffs.  These tariffs contributed to inflation in the US post-covid, including inflation in anything using Canadian lumber.  That means we can thank Trump for part of the high house building costs, among other things.

 

https://money.cnn.com/2017/04/24/investing/canada-lumber-tariff-trump/index.html

 

https://globalnews.ca/news/4293847/tariffs-lumber-pricing-americans-out-of-housing-market-trump/

[placeholder]

2 hours ago, JonnyF said:

And he was absolutely correct. 

 

 

Obama on the other hand, was clearly using energy to coerce the EU into a trade deal.

 

 

 

 

Here's something else I had forgotten about. 

 

Trump slams Germany's US trade surplus as 'bad'

During meetings with EU leaders, US President Donald Trump threatened to curb the sale of millions of German cars in the US. In comments leaked to German press he said Germany was acting in a bad way.

https://www.dw.com/en/trump-slams-germanys-us-trade-surplus-as-bad/a-38986975

With that threat and others in mind, how do you think the Germans would construe Trump's speech about LNG?

[billd766]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

The use of hydrogen is not new, so that isn't a huge problem to solve. London had some hydrogen powered buses a while back.

 

https://www.london.gov.uk/press-releases/mayoral/englands-first-hydrogen-double-deckers-launched

I was thinking more about local storage at home or at gas stations.

[placeholder]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

The use of hydrogen is not new, so that isn't a huge problem to solve. London had some hydrogen powered buses a while back.

 

https://www.london.gov.uk/press-releases/mayoral/englands-first-hydrogen-double-deckers-launched

The big problem with hydrogen is that it is far more expense to store than fossil fuels.

[JonnyF]

51 minutes ago, placeholder said:

I'm so delighted that you brought that up.  What does Obama's threat to the UK tell you about his attitude towards the EU? Anything? Because what it would tell any rational observer is  that Obama was very pro-EU. And, of course, Obama was very popular in the EU. Whereas Trump threatened the EU over Nato,, slammed the EU for protectionism, and cheered on Britain's withdrawal from the EU. You don't think this was present to the minds of Trump's audience in 2018?

What's more less than 3 months after this speech, Trump imposed a tariff on steel from the EU. Supposedly for the sake of national security!

I would agree that Obama was Pro EU and Trump was more Eurosceptic. As a Eurosceptic myself, I would have to say Trump has his finger on the pulse regarding the corrupt federalist organization, the EU. Why shouldn't he impose tariffs on the EU, if I were to say that the EU themselves are no stranger to protectionism it would be a massive understatement.

 

It's ironic that while trying to convince the British to stay in the EU, Obama actually helped the Leave cause. He should really have minded his own business and shut up, but Democrat Presidents have a habit of getting things badly wrong re. the UK. 

[placeholder]

7 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

I would agree that Obama was Pro EU and Trump was more Eurosceptic. As a Eurosceptic myself, I would have to say Trump has his finger on the pulse regarding the corrupt federalist organization, the EU. Why shouldn't he impose tariffs on the EU, if I were to say that the EU themselves are no stranger to protectionism it would be a massive understatement.

 

It's ironic that while trying to convince the British to stay in the EU, Obama actually helped the Leave cause. He should really have minded his own business and shut up, but Democrat Presidents have a habit of getting things badly wrong re. the UK. 

Whatever the merit of what you claim here, it has nothing to do with your previous claim that Obama was somehow threatening the EU while Trump was not. Only a massive disregard of Trump's and Obama's respective records could  allow  for your ridiculous claim.

[Phoenix Rising]

45 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

I would agree that Obama was Pro EU and Trump was more Eurosceptic. As a Eurosceptic myself, I would have to say Trump has his finger on the pulse regarding the corrupt federalist organization, the EU.

Says a person from the corrupt UK......

[JonnyF]

35 minutes ago, Phoenix Rising said:

Says a person from the corrupt UK......

More whataboutism. ????

[pegman]

12 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Agreed. Hydrogen avoids most of the problems created by battery cars.

IMO batteries are the wrong path- hydrogen is the saviour if they could just put the investment in to develop it.

I'm about 50/50 which way it goes. There is a chance it's a mixed result but that usually isn't how these things work themselves out.  The railway I spent my career at has done extensive testing of a hydrogen fuel cell locomotive. They make their own hydrogen using  a solar panel farm to produce the electricity to run the  hydrogen production unit. It worked so well that they are now going to build a facility to produce hydrogen on a large scale. It looks very promising. 

 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/bakx-hydrogen-ira-2023-cp-1.6713038

 

 Congratulations to the German Social Democrat party for their very fast action in  finding a solution to their energy needs. 

Edited January 20, 2023 by pegman

[pegman]

4 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

IMO hydrogen IS the way to go. If the amount of money spent on battery cars had been spent on hydrogen, that'd probably be universal already.

 

If they want to use battery cars, they should have made it possible to do a battery swap so don't have to recharge on a long journey. That'd work for taxis and other vehicles in cities that do a high mileage every day as well. Strange that they didn't come up with that idea long ago.

 The Chinese car manufacturer is producing a car that's swaps out batteries in about three minutes. 

[ozimoron]

There are several main problems for using hydrogen as fuel for cars as I understand it. The commercially viable applications I have read about involve heavy vehicles which travel on predefined routes like highways. Hydrogen pipelines can be installed along highways where interstate trucks travel. Not so much fanned out suburbs like cars use. Other issues are that hydrogen tanks must be very strong and made of very high grade steel as hydrogen leaks through steel so can't be stored for long, especially in small tanks. Another issue is that if hydrogen leaks in a filling station it will become a fire hazard, more so than petrol.

 

https://graphmatech.com/reducing-hydrogen-gas-leakage-from-pipes-and-storage-vessels-by-more-than-40-using-graphene/

Edited January 20, 2023 by ozimoron

[placeholder]

7 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

There are several main problems for using hydrogen as fuel for cars as I understand it. The commercially viable applications I have read about involve heavy vehicles which travel on predefined routes like highways. Hydrogen pipelines can be installed along highways where interstate trucks travel. Not so much fanned out suburbs like cars use. Other issues are that hydrogen tanks must be very strong and made of very high grade steel as hydrogen leaks through steel so can't be stored for long, especially in small tanks. Another issue is that if hydrogen leaks in a filling station it will become a fire hazard, more so than petrol.

I think it's more like an explosive hazard, actually.

That said, I believe that Toyota has come up with a lightweight container for hydrogen.  I don't know whether that's scalable to the size a service station would need, though.

[Phoenix Rising]

2 hours ago, JonnyF said:

More whataboutism. ????

Not whataboutism, but rather calling out your hypocrisy.

[heybruce]

4 hours ago, JonnyF said:

I would agree that Obama was Pro EU and Trump was more Eurosceptic. As a Eurosceptic myself, I would have to say Trump has his finger on the pulse regarding the corrupt federalist organization, the EU. Why shouldn't he impose tariffs on the EU, if I were to say that the EU themselves are no stranger to protectionism it would be a massive understatement.

 

It's ironic that while trying to convince the British to stay in the EU, Obama actually helped the Leave cause. He should really have minded his own business and shut up, but Democrat Presidents have a habit of getting things badly wrong re. the UK. 

Weren't the lies Boris Johnson and others put out regarding the tremendous savings for the UK a bigger factor in fooling people to vote Leave?

[GinBoy2]

34 minutes ago, heybruce said:

Weren't the lies Boris Johnson and others put out regarding the tremendous savings for the UK a bigger factor in fooling people to vote Leave?

I sort of agree blaming Obama is a bit of a stretch.

 

I think you had plenty of your own folks shooting wildly into feet.

 

Probably a mistake, but not the first case of mass national insanity, and probably not the last.

 

....but Obama's fault for Christs sake

[billd766]

5 hours ago, placeholder said:

The big problem with hydrogen is that it is far more expense to store than fossil fuels.

But the price will come down as more hydrogen vehicles are deployed and new hydrogen plants come online.

 

The link is by courtesy of TBL. Thank you.

 

https://www.london.gov.uk/press-releases/mayoral/englands-first-hydrogen-double-deckers-launched

[billd766]

3 hours ago, pegman said:

I'm about 50/50 which way it goes. There is a chance it's a mixed result but that usually isn't how these things work themselves out.  The railway I spent my career at has done extensive testing of a hydrogen fuel cell locomotive. They make their own hydrogen using  a solar panel farm to produce the electricity to run the  hydrogen production unit. It worked so well that they are now going to build a facility to produce hydrogen on a large scale. It looks very promising. 

 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/bakx-hydrogen-ira-2023-cp-1.6713038

 

 Congratulations to the German Social Democrat party for their very fast action in  finding a solution to their energy needs. 

I hope that the Canadians do well with their hydrogen project.

[billd766]

3 hours ago, pegman said:

 The Chinese car manufacturer is producing a car that's swaps out batteries in about three minutes. 

The problem  can see with that is who owns the battery and who will pay when a dead battery needs to be replaced?

 

One limitation I can see on battery swapping is that one size does not fit all. If the batteries cost from say $7,500 upwards, how many of each type of battery would the shop hold? When a customer comes in for a battery swap at say $50 what will happen and who will have to pay for the replacement battery if it is needed?

[GinBoy2]

I know we are diverging from the OP, but I have long argued that Hydrogen fuel cells are the long term solution.

 

EV cars being Lithium based batteries again tie us to suppliers which like Russia will hold us hostage.

 

The issues regarding storage are I believe solvable, and unlike EV you can refill H2 in pretty much the same time as it takes to fill a tank of gas, unlike the 40 minutes for an EV

[transam]

1 minute ago, GinBoy2 said:

I know we are diverging from the OP, but I have long argued that Hydrogen fuel cells are the long term solution.

 

EV cars being Lithium based batteries again tie us to suppliers which like Russia will hold us hostage.

 

The issues regarding storage are I believe solvable, and unlike EV you can refill H2 in pretty much the same time as it takes to fill a tank of gas, unlike the 40 minutes for an EV

I hear Lithium is soon to be history for car batteries.........????

[pegman]

5 hours ago, GinBoy2 said:

I know we are diverging from the OP, but I have long argued that Hydrogen fuel cells are the long term solution.

 

EV cars being Lithium based batteries again tie us to suppliers which like Russia will hold us hostage.

 

The issues regarding storage are I believe solvable, and unlike EV you can refill H2 in pretty much the same time as it takes to fill a tank of gas, unlike the 40 minutes for an EV

"The HUV has the particularity of offering interchangeable hydrogen tanks. Six interchangeable hydrogen tanks are added to the main tank and provide a range of 800 kilometres (500 mi). This system makes it easy to exchange the six removable tanks in a station without refueling the main tank, service stations for hydrogen being rare."

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NamX_HUV

[pegman]

5 hours ago, billd766 said:

The problem  can see with that is who owns the battery and who will pay when a dead battery needs to be replaced?

 

One limitation I can see on battery swapping is that one size does not fit all. If the batteries cost from say $7,500 upwards, how many of each type of battery would the shop hold? When a customer comes in for a battery swap at say $50 what will happen and who will have to pay for the replacement battery if it is needed?

 

[placeholder]

14 hours ago, GinBoy2 said:

I know we are diverging from the OP, but I have long argued that Hydrogen fuel cells are the long term solution.

 

EV cars being Lithium based batteries again tie us to suppliers which like Russia will hold us hostage.

 

The issues regarding storage are I believe solvable, and unlike EV you can refill H2 in pretty much the same time as it takes to fill a tank of gas, unlike the 40 minutes for an EV

Actually, there's a very good chance that America for one will soon be self sufficient in lithium via extraction of lithium deposits at the Salton Sea.

 

The Salton Sea could produce the world’s greenest lithium, if new extraction technologies work

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/05/04/the-salton-sea-could-produce-the-worlds-greenest-lithium.html

 

For another, lithium use may well be transitional. Sodium based batteries are already being used in some cars. As of yet, their storage capacity isn't great. But adequate for urban dwellers.  And there's a new one in development that can hold far more power than current lithium batteries and it operates much more efficiently in cold weather.

Cheap sodium-sulfur battery boasts 4x the capacity of lithium-ion

https://newatlas.com/energy/cheap-sodium-sulfur-battery-four-times-capacity/

 

There are plenty of other non-lithium options being pursued.

[GinBoy2]

14 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Actually, there's a very good chance that America for one will soon be self sufficient in lithium via extraction of lithium deposits at the Salton Sea.

 

The Salton Sea could produce the world’s greenest lithium, if new extraction technologies work

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/05/04/the-salton-sea-could-produce-the-worlds-greenest-lithium.html

 

For another, lithium use may well be transitional. Sodium based batteries are already being used in some cars. As of yet, their storage capacity isn't great. But adequate for urban dwellers.  And there's a new one in development that can hold far more power than current lithium batteries and it operates much more efficiently in cold weather.

Cheap sodium-sulfur battery boasts 4x the capacity of lithium-ion

https://newatlas.com/energy/cheap-sodium-sulfur-battery-four-times-capacity/

 

There are plenty of other non-lithium options being pursued.

All good stuff.

 

What this probably points to is a future of mixed options.

 

In the same way we have gasoline and diesel today, the future may well be a hybrid Hydrogen and  Battery world.

 

And all of this basically kneecaps the Russian economy, and that is not a bad thing at all

Edited January 21, 2023 by GinBoy2

[placeholder]

4 minutes ago, GinBoy2 said:

All good stuff.

 

What this probably points to is a future of mixed options.

 

In the same way we have gasoline and diesel today, the future may well be a hybrid Hydrogen and  Battery world.

 

And all of this basically kneecaps the Russian economy, and that is not a bad thing at all

Right. I'm not anti-hydrogen in the least. Lots of progress has been made in creating efficient electrolyzers, I suspect that hydrogen will be most useful as a way of storing excess energy created by renewables. There are many companies working in this area. An Australian one, called Hysata, claims that the cost of its hydrogen had already beaten the price of natural gas before the runup. And in China, a team has claimed success with extracting hydrogen from seawater.