White Bread. Unhealthy To Eat?

[BigStar]

15 hours ago, mommysboy said:

And I wonder how many times the wine glass got replenished! (It used to be about 6 times in my case)

Of course it did. I have one glass of red wine daily. Tastes good and I want the polyphenols.

[youngexpat]

12 minutes ago, pomchop said:

Thank you that i understand and explains a lot.

not to say that we shouldn't spend time coming up with other theories

[scubascuba3]

36 minutes ago, BigStar said:

Leads to an insulin spike telling them they're full. It soon drops, as it does with you, and then they need another fix. It's how average people get fat and unhealthy.

Nope, they lost weight in the study, the body is meant to insulin spike, of course everyone should avoid the fatty western diet

[KhunLA]

It appears everything you eat, may get turned into glucose, when needed, for easy digestion, absorption into the body.   Does it really matter what you eat, as long as it's in moderation.  A nice balanced diet for nutrients.  All, fats, carbs, proteins are needed.  All help with digesting different nutrients, vitamins & minerals.  People get fat, because they don't burn off enough of what they eat, no matter, what that is.

 

"The exact cause of most types of diabetes is unknown. In all cases, sugar builds up in the bloodstream. This is because the pancreas doesn't produce enough insulin. Both type 1 and type 2 diabetes may be caused by a combination of genetic or environmental factors."

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/diabetes/symptoms-causes/syc-20371444

 

"When your body doesn't have enough carbohydrate on hand, it will turn to protein and fat to make glucose. This reaction happens in the liver instead of the digestive tract. Your body breaks down the proteins, fats and enzymes it has to make glucose in a process called "gluconeogenesis," or the making of new sugar."

https://www.livestrong.com/article/457948-the-production-of-glucose-from-protein-or-fat/

 

 

 

[BigStar]

27 minutes ago, scubascuba3 said:

Nope, they lost weight in the study, the body is meant to insulin spike, of course everyone should avoid the fatty western diet

Caloric restriction will of course lead to weight loss, spikes or no spikes, fat or no fat. One of our faves is the Twinkie diet. But the classic is the Minnesota Starvation Experiment, sometimes misunderstood by hack fitness writers who haven't read it.

[BigStar]

21 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Does it really matter what you eat, as long as it's in moderation. 

Yes, as it all depends on your current metabolism and how sure you are the current goodness is going last long-term thru your moderation.

 

It was only after i STOPPED eating the heart healthy whole grains and omega 6 oils in moderation that I was able to moderate my eating of everything else. Once my insulin levels and IR dropped into normal range so did my appetite.

     —https://www.dietdoctor.com/why-everything-in-moderation-is-terrible-diet-advice

 

As for moderation in general, the principle of moderation (also beloved by ANF Nutritionists) tends not to work so well either, akin to “push away from the table.”  “A Little Bite Won’t Hurt”: The Failure of Moderation

 

Reading testimonials, you always find a lot of people affirming they “can’t stop” once they get started or else backslide.

 

As Dr. David Unwin recently tweeted:

 

Also please don’t forget about food addiction Most of my obese patients over 110 kg CANNOT moderate some foods like bread

 

The only thing that works for them is abstinence. Even then it is very hard for them Rather like alcohol or nicotine .

 

And quickly got this response:

 

you just described me to a T! My body cannot tolerate certain carbs, specifically bread. If I don't eat it I don't crave it. Eat one slice and I can't stop. Pizza is the worst. One slice and I could eat the whole pie. So the last time I ate pizza was 3 years ago.

 

[BigStar]

1 hour ago, mommysboy said:

Overeating really! I mean everything including drinks like red wine.  That's what causes weight gain

First, the "excess" argument is one of our favorite straw men. @scubascubarefuted the whole CIM (carbohydrate insulin model of obesity) with this gem: eating too much cheese will make you fat. That's it, then--get nekkid! Lemme join in:  Strange but True: Drinking Too Much Water Can Kill.

 

Trouble is, this gets us really nowhere.

 

Nobody says do harmful things to excess. In fact, everyone advises against it. None of those 93% of Americans metabolically unhealthy thought they were doing anything, like, excessively. But they obviously were.

 

So we always beg the question of what the excess is, exactly. That all depends on an individual's own metabolism and how much it can take, over time, without getting diseased. The great anti-christ himself, Gary Taubes, makes exactly this point in his book Why We Get Fat, as our anti-low carb Authorities would know if they ever read him; but they may now lift their fat fingers from their keyboards to make the sign of the cross, last chance!

 

. . . there’s no one-size-fits-all prescription for the quantity of carbohydrates we can eat and still lose fat or remain lean. For some, staying lean or getting back to being lean might be a matter of merely avoiding sugars and eating the other carbohydrates in the diet, even the fattening ones, in moderation: pasta dinners once a week, say, instead of every other day. For others, moderation in carbohydrate consumption might not be sufficient, and far stricter adherence is necessary. And for some, weight will be lost only on a diet of virtually zero carbohydrates, and even this may not be sufficient to eliminate all our accumulated fat, or even most of it.

 

. . . A blanket recommendation to eat fruits and vegetables and whole grains, as Oz prescribes and now Weight Watchers and the U.S. Dietary Guidelines, ignores this aspect of human variability completely. It assumes that people who are predisposed to fatten can tolerate the same foods and benefit from the same very mild dose of carb-restriction that the naturally lean can.

     --Why We Get Fat

 

Now among the What, Me Worry? Settled Principles of mighty ANF Longevity Science is the Genetic Voodoo:

 

8.  What, me worry? I: The genes

 

It’s all genes. Git nekkid!

 

But

 

Study of a high physical exercise cohort compared with community controls over more than 20 years showed that disability at age 80 years had been postponed by nearly 16 years while mortality had been postponed about 7 years in the exercise cohort as opposed to controls. A similar study compared three groups of university alumni divided at baseline into cohorts with zero, one, or two/three major risk factors out of exercise, weight, and tobacco use and followed from age 69 to almost 90 years of age. The zero initial risk factor cohort postponed morbidity by 10 years and mortality by 3.3 years compared to high risk. The differences increased over time, occurred in all subgroups, and persisted after statistical adjustment.

     --“On the Compression of Morbidity: From 1980 to 2015 and Beyond.” Handbook of the Biology of Aging, Jan. 2016, pp. 507–24. www.sciencedirect.com, doi:10.1016/B978-0-12-411596-5.00019-8.

 

Compared to control animals showing a median survival time of 6.4 years, CR extended survival by 50%, reduced aging-associated diseases and preserved loss of brain white matter in several brain regions.

     --https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6420603/

    

Human longevity seems more consistently linked to insulin sensitivity than to IGF-1 levels, and the effects of IGF-1 on human longevity are confounded by its inverse proportionality to insulin sensitivity (Vitale, Pellegrino, Vollery, & Hofland, 2019).

     --Fahy, Gregory M., et al. “Reversal of Epigenetic Aging and Immunosenescent Trends in Humans.” Aging Cell, vol. 18, no. 6, 2019, p. e13028. Wiley Online Library, doi:10.1111/acel.13028.

 

It’s a mystery why our Genetic Voodoo Believers bother seeing docs and gobbling all those meds. Should do no good. Why fight the Voodoo? Save yourself lots of time, bother, and money. Use the Voodoo, Luke!

 

Mark Baker's advice:

 

. . make sure you keep healthy, because health is your supreme asset. If you’re ill your life is f**ked. Most people don’t become ill for no reason; it’s the consequence of being a w.a.nker, not caring about their physical condition or what they eat. Your life is f**ked anyway because you’re going to die; but don’t accelerate the d**n process! Leave that to the morons who blame their genetics or hormones for their illnesses. Keep strong, build muscle, face physical tests and challenges.

     --Gang Fit (Part 2)

 

So I'll go with the science rather than the voodoo. True, centenarians may have done nothing special in their lives and do have the genes to postpone the onset of chronic disease. And those geners may vary. My genes haven't told me that I got The Power, however.  I'll just try to hedge my bets and postpone the metabolic diseases, docs, meds, bills, and suffering as long as I can, thank you.

 

Before the personal attack begins, no, I don't find it difficult at all, probably because my insulin is under control. Don't desire bread, rice, pizza, ice cream, and other starches and sugars. I have a good life, no complaints here. I'd like it to continue into my 90s w/o having to deal w/ chronic diseases.

 

Nobody really knows what's excess without a CGM (continual glucose monitor). People have been shocked what spikes arise from eating their fave high carb dishes. Unfortunately these CAN be cumulative but that isn't obvious until damage has already been done via insulin resistance, pre-diabetes, and diabetes itself. OH--could that be YOU? Yep.

 

Turns out that you can’t be sure that being “healthy” and "feeling good" right now is any protection against the cumulative effects of glucose spikes. Metabolisms differ, so that even whole foods aren’t necessarily safe. If safe, how are you sure? And if safe, in what amounts? When? How long? Well, you don't have a clue.

 

It turns out that the level of sugar in an individual’s blood — especially in individuals who are considered healthy — fluctuates more than traditional means of monitoring, like the one-and-done finger-<deleted> method, would have us believe. Often, these fluctuations come in the form of “spikes,” or a rapid increase in the amount of sugar in the blood, after eating specific foods — most commonly, carbohydrates. . . .

 

The covert spikes . . . can contribute to cardiovascular disease risk and a person’s tendencies to develop insulin resistance, which is a common precursor to diabetes, he said.

 

Often people who are prediabetic have no idea they’re prediabetic. In fact, this is the case about 90 percent of the time. It’s a big deal, Snyder said, as about 70 percent of people who are prediabetic will eventually develop the disease.

     —Diabetic-level glucose spikes seen in healthy people: A study out of Stanford in which blood sugar levels were continuously monitored reveals that even people who think they’re “healthy” should pay attention to what they eat.

 

WOT? Healthy??

 

Conversely, up to 40% of the normal weight population have the exact same metabolic dysfunction that the obese do, they are just normal weight. And so they don’t even know they are sick, until it’s too late, because normal weight people get type-2 diabetes, they get hypertension, they get dyslipidemia, they get cardiovascular disease, they get cancer, they get dementia, etc, etc.

     —https://robertlustig.com/fructose2/

 

WOT? Normal weight???

 

[renaissanc]

I'd treat white bread like any Thai Kanom. Eat it occasionally and not every day. 

[markclover]

No it's just bread.  The bad ones are sugar and fried Thai food.

[pagallim]

Nothing beats the taste of freshly baked old fashioned white bread be it for sandwiches or toast.  I've always enjoyed cooking, but certainly over the last 2 or 3 years with all the social restrictions in place, have gotten more and more into my own prepared food, avoiding processed foods and making nearly everything from scratch be it a loaf of bread or naan, gnocchi, various pies, pasta and pizza.   That said, my diet is mainly protein and I exercise regularly.

 

 

[connda]

On 1/24/2023 at 4:05 PM, NoshowJones said:

I eat four slices a white bread every day. 

Can this do any harm to my general health?

No.

[Maestro]

Removed some off-topic, trolling, baiting ad bickering posts and the replies to them.

[mommysboy]

20 hours ago, BigStar said:

First, the "excess" argument is one of our favorite straw men. @scubascubarefuted the whole CIM (carbohydrate insulin model of obesity) with this gem: eating too much cheese will make you fat. That's it, then--get nekkid! Lemme join in:  Strange but True: Drinking Too Much Water Can Kill.

 

Trouble is, this gets us really nowhere.

 

Nobody says do harmful things to excess. In fact, everyone advises against it. None of those 93% of Americans metabolically unhealthy thought they were doing anything, like, excessively. But they obviously were.

 

So we always beg the question of what the excess is, exactly. That all depends on an individual's own metabolism and how much it can take, over time, without getting diseased. The great anti-christ himself, Gary Taubes, makes exactly this point in his book Why We Get Fat, as our anti-low carb Authorities would know if they ever read him; but they may now lift their fat fingers from their keyboards to make the sign of the cross, last chance!

 

. . . there’s no one-size-fits-all prescription for the quantity of carbohydrates we can eat and still lose fat or remain lean. For some, staying lean or getting back to being lean might be a matter of merely avoiding sugars and eating the other carbohydrates in the diet, even the fattening ones, in moderation: pasta dinners once a week, say, instead of every other day. For others, moderation in carbohydrate consumption might not be sufficient, and far stricter adherence is necessary. And for some, weight will be lost only on a diet of virtually zero carbohydrates, and even this may not be sufficient to eliminate all our accumulated fat, or even most of it.

 

. . . A blanket recommendation to eat fruits and vegetables and whole grains, as Oz prescribes and now Weight Watchers and the U.S. Dietary Guidelines, ignores this aspect of human variability completely. It assumes that people who are predisposed to fatten can tolerate the same foods and benefit from the same very mild dose of carb-restriction that the naturally lean can.

     --Why We Get Fat

 

Now among the What, Me Worry? Settled Principles of mighty ANF Longevity Science is the Genetic Voodoo:

 

8.  What, me worry? I: The genes

 

It’s all genes. Git nekkid!

 

But

 

Study of a high physical exercise cohort compared with community controls over more than 20 years showed that disability at age 80 years had been postponed by nearly 16 years while mortality had been postponed about 7 years in the exercise cohort as opposed to controls. A similar study compared three groups of university alumni divided at baseline into cohorts with zero, one, or two/three major risk factors out of exercise, weight, and tobacco use and followed from age 69 to almost 90 years of age. The zero initial risk factor cohort postponed morbidity by 10 years and mortality by 3.3 years compared to high risk. The differences increased over time, occurred in all subgroups, and persisted after statistical adjustment.

     --“On the Compression of Morbidity: From 1980 to 2015 and Beyond.” Handbook of the Biology of Aging, Jan. 2016, pp. 507–24. www.sciencedirect.com, doi:10.1016/B978-0-12-411596-5.00019-8.

 

Compared to control animals showing a median survival time of 6.4 years, CR extended survival by 50%, reduced aging-associated diseases and preserved loss of brain white matter in several brain regions.

     --https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6420603/

    

Human longevity seems more consistently linked to insulin sensitivity than to IGF-1 levels, and the effects of IGF-1 on human longevity are confounded by its inverse proportionality to insulin sensitivity (Vitale, Pellegrino, Vollery, & Hofland, 2019).

     --Fahy, Gregory M., et al. “Reversal of Epigenetic Aging and Immunosenescent Trends in Humans.” Aging Cell, vol. 18, no. 6, 2019, p. e13028. Wiley Online Library, doi:10.1111/acel.13028.

 

It’s a mystery why our Genetic Voodoo Believers bother seeing docs and gobbling all those meds. Should do no good. Why fight the Voodoo? Save yourself lots of time, bother, and money. Use the Voodoo, Luke!

 

Mark Baker's advice:

 

. . make sure you keep healthy, because health is your supreme asset. If you’re ill your life is f**ked. Most people don’t become ill for no reason; it’s the consequence of being a w.a.nker, not caring about their physical condition or what they eat. Your life is f**ked anyway because you’re going to die; but don’t accelerate the d**n process! Leave that to the morons who blame their genetics or hormones for their illnesses. Keep strong, build muscle, face physical tests and challenges.

     --Gang Fit (Part 2)

 

So I'll go with the science rather than the voodoo. True, centenarians may have done nothing special in their lives and do have the genes to postpone the onset of chronic disease. And those geners may vary. My genes haven't told me that I got The Power, however.  I'll just try to hedge my bets and postpone the metabolic diseases, docs, meds, bills, and suffering as long as I can, thank you.

 

Before the personal attack begins, no, I don't find it difficult at all, probably because my insulin is under control. Don't desire bread, rice, pizza, ice cream, and other starches and sugars. I have a good life, no complaints here. I'd like it to continue into my 90s w/o having to deal w/ chronic diseases.

 

Nobody really knows what's excess without a CGM (continual glucose monitor). People have been shocked what spikes arise from eating their fave high carb dishes. Unfortunately these CAN be cumulative but that isn't obvious until damage has already been done via insulin resistance, pre-diabetes, and diabetes itself. OH--could that be YOU? Yep.

 

Turns out that you can’t be sure that being “healthy” and "feeling good" right now is any protection against the cumulative effects of glucose spikes. Metabolisms differ, so that even whole foods aren’t necessarily safe. If safe, how are you sure? And if safe, in what amounts? When? How long? Well, you don't have a clue.

 

It turns out that the level of sugar in an individual’s blood — especially in individuals who are considered healthy — fluctuates more than traditional means of monitoring, like the one-and-done finger-<deleted> method, would have us believe. Often, these fluctuations come in the form of “spikes,” or a rapid increase in the amount of sugar in the blood, after eating specific foods — most commonly, carbohydrates. . . .

 

The covert spikes . . . can contribute to cardiovascular disease risk and a person’s tendencies to develop insulin resistance, which is a common precursor to diabetes, he said.

 

Often people who are prediabetic have no idea they’re prediabetic. In fact, this is the case about 90 percent of the time. It’s a big deal, Snyder said, as about 70 percent of people who are prediabetic will eventually develop the disease.

     —Diabetic-level glucose spikes seen in healthy people: A study out of Stanford in which blood sugar levels were continuously monitored reveals that even people who think they’re “healthy” should pay attention to what they eat.

 

WOT? Healthy??

 

Conversely, up to 40% of the normal weight population have the exact same metabolic dysfunction that the obese do, they are just normal weight. And so they don’t even know they are sick, until it’s too late, because normal weight people get type-2 diabetes, they get hypertension, they get dyslipidemia, they get cardiovascular disease, they get cancer, they get dementia, etc, etc.

     —https://robertlustig.com/fructose2/

 

WOT? Normal weight???

 

I really don't want to devote too much time to the research. For me, from just a cursory reading the research or you, or both, seem to be saying could=can= does.

 

We do know for sure that diabetics have predominantly elevated blood sugar levels, and that leads to a whole range of diseases.  But sugar spikes seem natural and by definition are temporary. There's a big difference in damage levels possibly, and the body copes easily with mild or temporary inflammation.  One big problem with science is that it studies sick people, and then can extrapolate the findings to healthy individuals.

 

Also there are all sorts of checks and balances. Take the red wine for instance- any alcohol appears to be damaging to health, but as you note red wine has powerful anti-oxidants.  One glass may be beneficial, two probably not, three probably a bit harmful but not so much, and so on. Drink a bottle a day and you may start getting ill.  I think the same argument applies to many things including carbs. We all tend to cobble together theories that suit our tendencies/desires.  A bit of clear thinking would tell you to switch to a cup of tea or coffee, or perhaps drink grape juice, but like all of us you don't because you like red wine.

[mommysboy]

Low carbers take note- could do more harm than good. 

 

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/322881#Why-low-carb-diets-should-be-avoided

 

(I post this partly tongue in cheek- to illustrate that if you have a belief there are endless bits of speculative/unqualified/unproven research, and subsequent interpretation that will allow you to prove what you want to think. I could have just as easily chosen something to prove the opposite.)

 

 

 

 

 

 

[watchcat]

On 1/24/2023 at 10:41 AM, scubascuba3 said:

Think you're right on that part,  avoid butter, margarine, cheese, peanut butter etc fatty rubbish

That'll leave you with a slice of white bread, enjoy....

[scubascuba3]

34 minutes ago, watchcat said:

That'll leave you with a slice of white bread, enjoy....

i either have Jam or marmite on toast. It's better if people don't treat food as entertainment

 

[KhunLA]

1 hour ago, mommysboy said:

Low carbers take note- could do more harm than good. 

 

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/322881#Why-low-carb-diets-should-be-avoided

 

(I post this partly tongue in cheek- to illustrate that if you have a belief there are endless bits of speculative/unqualified/unproven research, and subsequent interpretation that will allow you to prove what you want to think. I could have just as easily chosen something to prove the opposite.)

One does need to know the ingredients of what they are eating.  We do most from scratch at the house, and most meals are in house.  No worries of excess sugar, salt, msg, hydrogenated oils.

 

My bread has bread flour, water, salt, yeast.  And taste good just by itself, right out of the oven.

 

As I posted earlier, nothing negative about that, especially if normal serving size.

 

Rarely add much, if any sugar to anything, unless a pastry.  Mostly use Olive Oils, occasional peanut or sesame oil.

 

Carbs, I eat a lot of bread, potatoes and whole wheat pasta.  Not a rice fan.  My peanut butter has peanuts ... that's it.   Unsweetened cereal for brekkie/first meal.

 

Intermittent fasting (12-15 hrs) to burn off excess whatever, as not the most physically active person.  Aside from a wee bit high blood sugar, my #s are all normal.

[BigStar]

3 hours ago, mommysboy said:

  But sugar spikes seem natural and by definition are temporary. There's a big difference in damage levels possibly, and the body copes easily with mild or temporary inflammation.

Every diabetic once thought that. They are entirely natural in response to elevated glucose levels. But they may have a cumulative effect and very often do. Eventually the body can't cope easily. Then the choice is whether to cut back on the carbs to avoid meds or just go for the meds. Some such as myself choose to maximize the probability we don't have to make that choice.

 

3 hours ago, mommysboy said:

One big problem with science is that it studies sick people, and then can extrapolate the findings to healthy individuals.

Or it may follow the progress of once-healthy individuals, as in a reference I gave above. One big problem with our ANF Nutritional Experts isn't that they study sick or healthy people. It's that they don't study at all.

 

3 hours ago, mommysboy said:

A bit of clear thinking would tell you to switch to a cup of tea or coffee, or perhaps drink grape juice, but like all of us you don't because you like red wine.

A bit of clear non-binary, analytical thinking on your part would tell you it's not an either/or choice and that there's a critical difference between a glass of grape juice and a glass of red wine. It happens that I drink tea and coffee daily as well. Basically, you don't have a clue and aren't competent to have a discussion on this subject.

 

3 hours ago, mommysboy said:

red wine has powerful anti-oxidants.  One glass may be beneficial, two probably not, three probably a bit harmful but not so much, and so on. Drink a bottle a day and you may start getting ill.  I think the same argument applies to many things including carbs. We all tend to cobble together theories that suit our tendencies/desires. 

Again, nobody is saying or has ever said anything about excess. Lemme repeat for you:

 

First, the "excess" argument is one of our favorite straw men. @scubascubarefuted the whole CIM (carbohydrate insulin model of obesity) with this gem: eating too much cheese will make you fat. That's it, then--get nekkid! Lemme join in:  Strange but True: Drinking Too Much Water Can Kill.

 

But you haven't defined excess according to a specific individual's metabolism. You don't actually even know what is for yourself, let alone anyone else.

 

Nor have I cobbled together any theory to suit myself. I follow well-established, published, authoritative, systematic theory. Your opinions don't rise to cobbling together any theory, since you lack any evidence for doing so, just a spin of the same ol' congenial beliefs we've all heard before here.

 

[BigStar]

3 hours ago, mommysboy said:

if you have a belief there are endless bits of speculative/unqualified/unproven research, and subsequent interpretation that will allow you to prove what you want to think.

No, endless bits of speculative/unqualified/unproven research, and subsequent interpretation don't allow you to prove anything, sorry. Well, you may think they do. 

[scubascuba3]

2 hours ago, BigStar said:

Every diabetic once thought that. They are entirely natural in response to elevated glucose levels. But they may have a cumulative effect and very often do. Eventually the body can't cope easily. Then the choice is whether to cut back on the carbs to avoid meds or just go for the meds. Some such as myself choose to maximize the probability we don't have to make that choice.

 

Or it may follow the progress of once-healthy individuals, as in a reference I gave above. One big problem with our ANF Nutritional Experts isn't that they study sick or healthy people. It's that they don't study at all.

 

A bit of clear non-binary, analytical thinking on your part would tell you it's not an either/or choice and that there's a critical difference between a glass of grape juice and a glass of red wine. It happens that I drink tea and coffee daily as well. Basically, you don't have a clue and aren't competent to have a discussion on this subject.

 

Again, nobody is saying or has ever said anything about excess. Lemme repeat for you:

 

First, the "excess" argument is one of our favorite straw men. @scubascubarefuted the whole CIM (carbohydrate insulin model of obesity) with this gem: eating too much cheese will make you fat. That's it, then--get nekkid! Lemme join in:  Strange but True: Drinking Too Much Water Can Kill.

 

But you haven't defined excess according to a specific individual's metabolism. You don't actually even know what is for yourself, let alone anyone else.

 

Nor have I cobbled together any theory to suit myself. I follow well-established, published, authoritative, systematic theory. Your opinions don't rise to cobbling together any theory, since you lack any evidence for doing so, just a spin of the same ol' congenial beliefs we've all heard before here.

 

I honestly think more carbs would improve your mood, boost your serotonin, eating big lumps of meat and coke for dinner followed by a block of cheese for dessert can't be good for you

[CharlieH]

CLOSED.