UK economy only G7 nation to shrink in 2023 - IMF

[Chomper Higgot]

29 minutes ago, youreavinalaff said:

Personal experiences often differ. 

 

You said "there is a growing realisation among the electorate that it was sold a pup by the 'Vote Leave' campaign."

 

Not sure where you get your ideas from but I would guess it was the result of a poll. Of course, data gained by polls can differ. This is the issue. I could run a poll amongst leave voters that I know. I believe the result would be close to 100% " No. I wasn't sold a pup".

 

This leads me to those posters who constantly refuse to accept personal experiences because they are so called "unsubstantiated".

 

Where does the so called verifiable data come from? When we see things like  "%%% of leave voters regret their decision" or "%%% of patients wait more than 5 weeks to see the Doctor" or " <>in 5 families say they regularly miss meals" ? POLLS. Simple. Polls from people's personal experiences. Usually citing average figures from asking a few thousand people. Not particularly verifiable.

 

I could walk out of my home right now to make a poll. Using the question " are you struggling financially?" I would first head West. Having walked half a mile I would start my poll. I would get a resounding "NO". Heading East for half a mile the "Yes" responses would start to creep in. As polls are usually carried out for political effect, those carrying out the polls will often use demographics that they know will give them the results they desire. Varifiable data? Not exactly. As can be seen on this forum. Posters talking about packed out supermarkets and high streets. Pubs full if prople having fun, queues of holidaymakers at airports, priority booking Beyonce tickets selling out in the first few hours (at prices that could feed a family of 4 for a week). These sort of personal experiences don't sell newspapers or get clicks on websites and, therefore, are generally not published or polled.

 

 

 

The fact that some people have money to spend on holidays while millions of others are struggling to feed themselves is not an argument against the presence of mass poverty in the UK, it’s simply an indication of income disparity.

 

Like data on poverty the Office of National Statistics has the verifiable data on income disparity.

 

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/personalandhouseholdfinances/incomeandwealth/bulletins/householdincomeinequalityfinancial/financialyearending2021

 

 

Edited February 5, 2023 by Chomper Higgot

[youreavinalaff]

9 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

The fact that some people have money to spend on holidays while millions of others are struggling to feed themselves is not an argument against the presence of mass poverty in the UK, it’s simply an indication of income disparity.

 

Like data on poverty the Office of National Statistics has the verifiable data on income disparity.

 

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/personalandhouseholdfinances/incomeandwealth/bulletins/householdincomeinequalityfinancial/financialyearending2021

 

 

Right on cue. Thanks.

 

Did those figures result in a survey of everyone's income, including untaxed income and undeclared income? Was every household in UK polled? 

 

You say there are millions unable to feed themselves. I'd love to see a link to a survey that polled over a million households. 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 5, 2023 by youreavinalaff

[youreavinalaff]

@Chomper Higgot

 

Did you miss this bit?

 

" The mean measure of income divides the total income of individuals by the number of individuals. A limitation of using the mean is that it can be influenced by just a few individuals with very high incomes and therefore does not necessarily reflect the standard of living of the "typical" person."

[Chomper Higgot]

17 minutes ago, youreavinalaff said:

Right on cue. Thanks.

 

Did those figures result in a survey of everyone's income, including untaxed income and undeclared income? Was every household in UK polled? 

 

You say there are millions unable to feed themselves. I'd love to see a link to a survey that polled over a million households. 

 

 

 

 

Given your aversion to official UK Government data published by the National Office of Statistics, you might want to go door to door and check for yourself.

There is no need to poll millions of houses, many of the facts of food poverty are available from verifiable data, by example records of the number of children receiving free school meals, records of the numbers of people relying on food banks etc.

 

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-9209/

 

Edited February 5, 2023 by Chomper Higgot

[Chomper Higgot]

5 minutes ago, youreavinalaff said:

@Chomper Higgot

 

Did you miss this bit?

 

" The mean measure of income divides the total income of individuals by the number of individuals. A limitation of using the mean is that it can be influenced by just a few individuals with very high incomes and therefore does not necessarily reflect the standard of living of the "typical" person."

No, I didn’t miss it, I do understand statistics.

I mentioned income disparity above and pointed out the problem it poses for ‘anecdotal observation’.

[transam]

20 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

The fact that some people have money to spend on holidays while millions of others are struggling to feed themselves is not an argument against the presence of mass poverty in the UK, it’s simply an indication of income disparity.

 

Like data on poverty the Office of National Statistics has the verifiable data on income disparity.

 

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/personalandhouseholdfinances/incomeandwealth/bulletins/householdincomeinequalityfinancial/financialyearending2021

 

 

86% of UK folk hold a passport, how is that if the populace, according to you, is in poverty........?

Do you need one to get into a food kitchen, is it mandatory to sign on at the dole office...?   

[Chomper Higgot]

5 minutes ago, transam said:

86% of UK folk hold a passport, how is that if the populace, according to you, is in poverty........?

Do you need one to get into a food kitchen, is it mandatory to sign on at the dole office...?   

Passports are not accepted as payment for food, let alone the gas bill, rent or council tax.

Which is a shame, given they are valid for ten years and personal circumstances can change dramatically over such a period.

 

 

 

[youreavinalaff]

8 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Given your aversion to official UK Government data published by the National Office of Statistics, you might want to go door to door and check for yourself.

There is no need to poll millions of houses, many of the facts of food poverty are available from verifiable data, by example records of the number of children receiving free school meals, records of the numbers of people relying on food banks etc.

 

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-9209/

 

Millions. To verify "millions" you need to check on "millions"

 

I know of instances where people have used food banks but didn't need to. Abusing the system. I doubt food banks require those that go there to prove they are in need. 

 

The link you posted as varifiable data has flaws. Even the author admitted as such. Hence my aversion.

[Bkk Brian]

2 minutes ago, youreavinalaff said:

Millions. To verify "millions" you need to check on "millions"

 

I know of instances where people have used food banks but didn't need to. Abusing the system. I doubt food banks require those that go there to prove they are in need. 

 

The link you posted as varifiable data has flaws. Even the author admitted as such. Hence my aversion.

I know of instances where people have used food banks but didn't need to. Abusing the system. I doubt food banks require those that go there to prove they are in need. 

 

I thought you need to get interviewed first to get vouchers for a food bank from agencies such as Citizens advice. Don't think anyone can just walk in. You need a referral and its for a limited time as far as I've read.

[Chomper Higgot]

Just now, youreavinalaff said:

Millions. To verify "millions" you need to check on "millions"

 

I know of instances where people have used food banks but didn't need to. Abusing the system. I doubt food banks require those that go there to prove they are in need. 

 

The link you posted as varifiable data has flaws. Even the author admitted as such. Hence my aversion.

There is the potential in all data for flaws.

 

Reputable data collators and analysts declare the flaws.

 

Just like all observations have flaws and reputable observers declare the flaws  in their observations.

 

Anecdotes posted on an anonymous online forum are perhaps the best example of ‘flawed’, being as they are, completely unverifiable.

[Chomper Higgot]

4 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

I know of instances where people have used food banks but didn't need to. Abusing the system. I doubt food banks require those that go there to prove they are in need. 

 

I thought you need to get interviewed first to get vouchers for a food bank from agencies such as Citizens advice. Don't think anyone can just walk in. You need a referral and its for a limited time as far as I've read.

I think we first need to ask ourselves if we believe the claimed personal knowledge is true.

 

 

[youreavinalaff]

5 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

I know of instances where people have used food banks but didn't need to. Abusing the system. I doubt food banks require those that go there to prove they are in need. 

 

I thought you need to get interviewed first to get vouchers for a food bank from agencies such as Citizens advice. Don't think anyone can just walk in. You need a referral and its for a limited time as far as I've read.

I believe some do. Those run by Trussell Trust being an example.

 

However, numerous places run by churches or local organizations generally are walk in.

[transam]

2 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Passports are not accepted as payment for food, let alone the gas bill, rent or council tax.

Which is a shame, given they are valid for ten years and personal circumstances can change dramatically over such a period.

 

 

 

????...... So you cannot see how the UK has moved on, 86% has a passport because they NEED one to go abroad for holidays, etc.

 

Yes things can change, UK folk have to wait a lot longer for a passport , NOW....

I think you are blowing things way out of proportion, which I expected...

 

Here's a picture of my uncle, at a time of real poverty in London...

But, folk now may not be able to splash out on an Indian takeaway, very expensive now.....????

[transam]

4 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

I think we first need to ask ourselves if we believe the claimed personal knowledge is true.

 

 

Yours...?

[youreavinalaff]

5 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

There is the potential in all data for flaws.

 

Reputable data collators and analysts declare the flaws.

 

Just like all observations have flaws and reputable observers declare the flaws  in their observations.

 

Anecdotes posted on an anonymous online forum are perhaps the best example of ‘flawed’, being as they are, completely unverifiable.

Excellent news.

 

So, you are attempting to debunk personal experiences by countering with already debunked, so called varifiable data.

 

That would be sad if it were not so funny.

[Bkk Brian]

Just now, youreavinalaff said:

I believe some do. Those run by Trussell Trust being an example.

 

However, numerous places run by churches or local organizations generally are walk in.

Considering that the Trussel Trust is the largest in the UK and not everyone has local Churches that have food banks, the chances are that the majority of people get referred.

https://www.goodto.com/family/money-news/food-banks-near-me-115479

[transam]

3 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Considering that the Trussel Trust is the largest in the UK and not everyone has local Churches that have food banks, the chances are that the majority of people get referred.

https://www.goodto.com/family/money-news/food-banks-near-me-115479

Have you photos of the masses queuing in the UK for free food....2022/3..

I mean, a bloke here says millions are foodless...

Edited February 5, 2023 by transam

[youreavinalaff]

7 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Considering that the Trussel Trust is the largest in the UK and not everyone has local Churches that have food banks, the chances are that the majority of people get referred.

https://www.goodto.com/family/money-news/food-banks-near-me-115479

Quite possibly true.

 

I don't believe I suggested otherwise. 

 

The Trussel Trust has around 1400 food banks on UK. There are around 1100 independent ones.

 

 

 

 

Edited February 5, 2023 by youreavinalaff

[Bkk Brian]

1 minute ago, transam said:

Have you photos of the masses queuing in the UK for free food....2022/3..

No have you? Just clarifying the rules for food banks

[transam]

3 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

No have you? Just clarifying the rules for food banks

No, because I doubt there are any, which was my point. ????

Probably bigger queues at the passport office, keep that from CH though....????

Edited February 5, 2023 by transam

[Chomper Higgot]

2 minutes ago, youreavinalaff said:

Excellent news.

 

So, you are attempting to debunk personal experiences by countering with already debunked, so called varifiable data.

 

That would be sad if it were not so funny.

I don’t need to ‘debunk personal experience’, I simply point out their inherent flaws, a) they are not verifiable, which might not matter so much if, b) they may fictitious.

 

Nobody has debunked ‘so called verifiable data’.

 

Posts demonstrating a the extent of ignorance of statistics and data are not debunking statistics or data.

 

[Bkk Brian]

1 minute ago, transam said:

No, because I doubt there are any, which was my point. ????

Great to know, nothing to do with my post however.........

[youreavinalaff]

1 minute ago, Chomper Higgot said:

I don’t need to ‘debunk personal experience’, I simply point out their inherent flaws, a) they are not verifiable, which might not matter so much if, b) they may fictitious.

 

Nobody has debunked ‘so called verifiable data’.

 

Posts demonstrating a the extent of ignorance of statistics and data are not debunking statistics or data.

 

No. But the author suggesting inaccuracies does.

 

And, please don't suggest I'm a liar.

[placeholder]

11 minutes ago, youreavinalaff said:

No. But the author suggesting inaccuracies does.

 

And, please don't suggest I'm a liar.

And don't you suggest that your personal reports are verifiable or have any evidentiary value.

[transam]

1 minute ago, placeholder said:

And don't you suggest that your personal reports are verifiable or have any evidentiary value.

They do to me.................????

[youreavinalaff]

2 minutes ago, placeholder said:

And don't you suggest that your personal reports are verifiable or have any evidentiary value.

Oh dear. Another poster questioning my honesty. 

[placeholder]

Just now, youreavinalaff said:

Oh dear. Another poster questioning my honesty. 

You think it's all about you, do you? Get over yourself.  When it comes to issues involving millions of people, there's no way of verifying anyone's personal experience who posts here.  We're all anonymous. If you want to tell us about your experiences, say, in tiling a bathroom, the do's and the do-not's, that's a different matter.

[transam]

2 minutes ago, placeholder said:

You think it's all about you, do you? Get over yourself.  When it comes to issues involving millions of people, there's no way of verifying anyone's personal experience who posts here.  We're all anonymous. If you want to tell us about your experiences, say, in tiling a bathroom, the do's and the do-not's, that's a different matter.

He never said that, stop twisting stuff............

[Boomer6969]

For my own reasons I wouldn't mind to see UK going bust. But frankly these IMF figures say that there is a growth differential between UK and Germany of less than one percent and about 1.5% with France. Bid deal.

 

But "chapeau" to US and their Geezer President.

Edited February 5, 2023 by Boomer6969

[placeholder]

4 minutes ago, transam said:

He never said that, stop twisting stuff............

Really?

"Oh dear. Another poster questioning my honesty.

Maybe you should start understanding stuff.