BITCOINERS, please help me to understand.

[Neeranam]

19 minutes ago, swissie said:

Thanks guys. I am a bit wiser now. A few questions remain:

How long have you known about Bitcoin?

 

[eisfeld]

21 minutes ago, swissie said:

- The "production" of Bitcoins is called "mining". I read that the amount of Bitcoins that ever could be mined is limited to 21 Million coins. Why not more? Please explain. Surely we will not run out of numerical combinations.

No technical reason. Its creator just made that choice so the system is not indefinitely inflationary.

 

21 minutes ago, swissie said:

- The "mining" uses already as much elctricity as the entire country of Morocco. "The Governements of this world" may find this unacceptable, if this trend continues.

There's a real possibility, some places haved banned Proof of Work mining already. There are supperiour mining mechanisms but unlikely that Bitcoin will switch.

 

21 minutes ago, swissie said:

I like "tangible things". Holding a 100 Dollar billl in my hands still gives me a warm feeling. Especially as long as the value of Cryptos is measured in form of US$

I understand this point of view but I think it's not the right way to think about things especially fiat notes. You can have bitcoins in tangible form as well. The last part about crypto currencies being measured in form of USD is the most misleading because that's like saying EUR is being measured in USD. You can measure everythings value in terms of USD. Or in EUR, or in THB or in BTC or in ETH or in gold nuggets. It doesn't mean anything in terms of intrinsic value of either the asset or the currency.

 

21 minutes ago, swissie said:

The  word "Crypto" has it's origins in the old Greek language. Meaning: Mysterious, unexplainable, beyond comprehention. Food for thaught.

It's called Crypto Currency because it relies on Cryptography. Kryptos means concealed, hidden, secret. Not unexplainable, mysterious or beyond comprehension. Secrecy is the key to digital security because the opposite would mean everyone could access your accounts, wallets, data etc.

[swissie]

10 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

All the banks in the world probably use more electricity than 10 Morroccos

Of course, turning it into "economic-growth". For better or for worse. Do Crypto Miners contribute to Economic Growth"?

[swissie]

2 hours ago, eisfeld said:

No technical reason. Its creator just made that choice so the system is not indefinitely inflationary.

 

There's a real possibility, some places haved banned Proof of Work mining already. There are supperiour mining mechanisms but unlikely that Bitcoin will switch.

 

I understand this point of view but I think it's not the right way to think about things especially fiat notes. You can have bitcoins in tangible form as well. The last part about crypto currencies being measured in form of USD is the most misleading because that's like saying EUR is being measured in USD. You can measure everythings value in terms of USD. Or in EUR, or in THB or in BTC or in ETH or in gold nuggets. It doesn't mean anything in terms of intrinsic value of either the asset or the currency.

 

It's called Crypto Currency because it relies on Cryptography. Kryptos means concealed, hidden, secret. Not unexplainable, mysterious or beyond comprehension. Secrecy is the key to digital security because the opposite would mean everyone could access your accounts, wallets, data etc.

Quote: "No technical reason. Its creator just made that choice so the system is not indefinitely inflationary. What if he changes his mind and allowes for 100 million coins?

Quote; "It's called Crypto Currency because it relies on Cryptography. Kryptos means concealed, hidden, secret. Not unexplainable, mysterious or beyond comprehension. Secrecy is the key to digital security because the opposite would mean everyone could access your accounts, wallets, data etc. Then why is it that on a monthly basis we learn that certain Crypto accouts heve been plundered by some sophisticated "hackers". Secrecy?

PS: It happenes that some native English Speakers occasionally post messages here, that I can only qualify as "cryptic messages". It may have something to do with local "slang", giving new meaning to Crtiptologie, dwarfing the Cryptig messages of the old Greeks.
========================

Now down to some basic fundamentals:

To asses the intristic value of something we need a "measuring stick". Here, we are walking on "thin ice". 2000 years ago, in the middle east, the measuring stick consisted of 100 sheep skins equals the value of 10 cows.

I strongly believe that the US$ will remain as the "measuring stick" for a long time to come. (power of taxation). To what would one link any crypto to a system without power of taxation? Exchanging a hundred sheep skins for 10 cows, taking place at the New York Stock exchange? Or exchanging a good looking women for 1 Bitcoin?

An exchange of " values" can only take place with a centralised common denominator. Worldwide. And this is the US$ still. Formerly Gold and Silver coins. Cryptos can not replace "the value compass" of this world due to the lack of the power of taxation. Worse: Without any "tangible" anchorage of any sort. (Unless backed by 100 sheep skins or 1 good looking women as currency).

 

[swissie]

3 hours ago, Neeranam said:

How long have you known about Bitcoin?

 

According to you, not long enough. But I have never met a person that bought Bitcoin at $ 60'000 and is still happy.

[Neeranam]

1 hour ago, swissie said:

According to you, not long enough. But I have never met a person that bought Bitcoin at $ 60'000 and is still happy.

I don't think that, as you keep avoiding to answer my question. 

 

[swissie]

6 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

I don't think that, as you keep avoiding to answer my question. 

 

 I have asked many questios and received many answers. Can you ask again what answer I have not given.

[patman30]

4 hours ago, Neeranam said:

I don't think that, as you keep avoiding to answer my question.

what difference would it make, whether he heard about bitcoin yesterday or yesteryear?
you either have a good understanding of bitcoin or you don't
time is not really a factor as all the info you need is at your fingertips

 

6 hours ago, swissie said:

What if he changes his mind and allowes for 100 million coins?

doesn't work like that, majority of mining hash power would need to agree to this change,
not saying it could not happen, just look at UASF/SW2X etc.
but it would not be the decision of a single individual and could be suicide for BTC
(i do actually expect core to push something like this in near future as BTC cannot survive the incoming halvings)

 

6 hours ago, swissie said:

Then why is it that on a monthly basis we learn that certain Crypto accouts heve been plundered by some sophisticated "hackers". Secrecy?

"hacked" is just a term for "we stole your money"
also these "hacks" happen on exchanges,
this is not a blockchain being hacked or private keys being brute forced
but poor security apperently of the exchanges servers that store private keys
(this apparent problem can be easily avoided, which is why they are always inside jobs imo)


 

Edited April 15, 2023 by patman30

[BobBKK]

Crypto, not BTC, is not for the feint hearted who do not understand its purpose ISO 20022 etc.

For those who want a punt XRP is a good choice as it meets the ISO standard and should be coming out of a court case with the SEC sometime this year (DYOR). Some might flame and laugh but they did that when BTC was $1.

Look at the USE of the coin - most are useLESS.  XRP can easily take over SWIFTs space as it is cheaper, faster and more secure. As always not financial advice and DYOR.

[ozimoron]

4 hours ago, swissie said:

 I have asked many questios and received many answers. Can you ask again what answer I have not given.

try this

 

https://seekingalpha.com/article/4501191-russia-gold-standard-what-means-gold-bitcoin

[fdsa]

4 hours ago, patman30 said:

this is not a blockchain being hacked or private keys being brute forced

This happens too - a weak implementation of random number generators in some crypto wallets, including original Bitcoin, allows to bruteforce the private keys, and later the seed phrases. Of course the Bitcoin is immune already (and all bruteforce-able wallets were already brute-forced LOL), but the same will happen to the new coins as their developers are not experienced yet.

[Seppius]

19 hours ago, Neeranam said:

I bought that first, $0.006 in early 2016.

Sold most at $2.40

What are your thoughts on it now? Even if they lose the case, CEO has said they will just move to a friendly country to operate from

 

Business is good for XRP

 

https://www.kitco.com/news/2023-03-01/Ripple-is-working-with-more-than-20-countries-on-CBDC-plans-Brooks-Entwistle.html

 

[Lacessit]

20 hours ago, Hummin said:

People believe in imaginary gods, and people believe in imaginary values! Bitcoin is a imaginary value as long people believe in it! 

IMO bitcoin is identical to a religion, something that can't be seen or felt. The leaders of any religion fare much better than the followers.

Precious metals are tangible stores of value, as governments debase their currencies the price goes up. I've never lost money buying gold, silver and platinum, so I will stick with what I know.

[Lacessit]

20 hours ago, Hummin said:

People believe in imaginary gods, and people believe in imaginary values! Bitcoin is a imaginary value as long people believe in it! 

IMO bitcoin is identical to a religion, something that can't be seen or felt. The leaders of any religion fare much better than the followers.

Precious metals are tangible stores of value, as governments debase their currencies the price goes up. I've never lost money buying gold, silver and platinum, so I will stick with what I know.

[eisfeld]

11 hours ago, swissie said:

What if he changes his mind and allowes for 100 million coins?

 

He can't change his mind and change the system. It's not in hist control anymore. Bitcoin is a bit like a direct democracy in that if not the majority agrees then a change does not happen.

 

11 hours ago, swissie said:

Then why is it that on a monthly basis we learn that certain Crypto accouts heve been plundered by some sophisticated "hackers". Secrecy?

Because they failed at the secrecy. They failed the Crypto part. If we are talking Bitcoin then it's people losing their keys.

 

11 hours ago, swissie said:

I strongly believe that the US$ will remain as the "measuring stick" for a long time to come. (power of taxation). To what would one link any crypto to a system without power of taxation? Exchanging a hundred sheep skins for 10 cows, taking place at the New York Stock exchange? Or exchanging a good looking women for 1 Bitcoin?

USD might remain the dominent currency. I don't think many people would seriously expect Bitcoin to replace it. And that's just as fine. That does not degrade Bitcoin really though and as mentioned is the same for any other currency or asset - nothing special about Bitcoin.

 

11 hours ago, swissie said:

An exchange of " values" can only take place with a centralised common denominator. Worldwide. And this is the US$ still. Formerly Gold and Silver coins. Cryptos can not replace "the value compass" of this world due to the lack of the power of taxation. Worse: Without any "tangible" anchorage of any sort.

In many places on earth assets are exchanged with little regard to their value denominated in USD. A Thai farmer selling a watermelon on the local market cares very little about the USD value of that watermelon. The USD does not gain its power from taxation. Other fiat currencies would have the same power. The USD gets its power from 1. the US being the most powerful country in the world 2. the US being pretty stable compared to others 3. the US being involved in a lot of trade around the world and USD easy to exchange.

[Neeranam]

2 hours ago, Seppius said:

What are your thoughts on it now? Even if they lose the case, CEO has said they will just move to a friendly country to operate from

 

Business is good for XRP

 

https://www.kitco.com/news/2023-03-01/Ripple-is-working-with-more-than-20-countries-on-CBDC-plans-Brooks-Entwistle.html

 

I don't have any more, but it should go to $5 if they win the case. 

My money is on Dot and multiversx 

[Neeranam]

22 hours ago, swissie said:

 I have asked many questios and received many answers. Can you ask again what answer I have not given.

When did you first hear about bitcoin.?

[Neeranam]

17 hours ago, BobBKK said:

Crypto, not BTC, is not for the feint hearted who do not understand its purpose ISO 20022 etc.

For those who want a punt XRP is a good choice as it meets the ISO standard and should be coming out of a court case with the SEC sometime this year (DYOR). Some might flame and laugh but they did that when BTC was $1.

Look at the USE of the coin - most are useLESS.  XRP can easily take over SWIFTs space as it is cheaper, faster and more secure. As always not financial advice and DYOR.

SWIFT is terrible 1970s technology. 

Many banks use XRP already for cross border transactions but not as many as they promised. 

A few years back, SCB used XRP for transactions between Japan and Thailand, but they changed for another crypto. 

XRP is a 'bankers' coin and many don't like it, because of that. The bitcoin maximalists obviously hate it because of this. 

I sold XRP and got into DEFI cryptos as I believe this is the future. 

I talked with a former finance minister of Thailand, who says the same, Khun Korn. 

A good punt is Omg, whose CEO is his relative, and used to work in the World Bank. 

 

[swissie]

On 4/15/2023 at 10:15 AM, fdsa said:

This happens too - a weak implementation of random number generators in some crypto wallets, including original Bitcoin, allows to bruteforce the private keys, and later the seed phrases. Of course the Bitcoin is immune already (and all bruteforce-able wallets were already brute-forced LOL), but the same will happen to the new coins as their developers are not experienced yet.

Above comment makes it clear to me, that unless someone is a "computer-wizard", it is not possible to understand the "inner-workings" of crypto currencies. I happen to believe that 95% of people are not computer-wizards. Caution would suggest, if something is not understood, better "hands-off".

This brings me in "devils-kitchen". Men claim, that we don't know the "inner-workings" of women. That has not stopped us from keeping our hands off women.

 
"Brute Force" was mentioned. I can rob a bank with brute force. Someone tell me how to rob with "keyboard brute force".   It might turn me into a convert.

 

[swissie]

On 4/15/2023 at 11:40 AM, eisfeld said:

He can't change his mind and change the system. It's not in hist control anymore. Bitcoin is a bit like a direct democracy in that if not the majority agrees then a change does not happen.

 

Because they failed at the secrecy. They failed the Crypto part. If we are talking Bitcoin then it's people losing their keys.

 

USD might remain the dominent currency. I don't think many people would seriously expect Bitcoin to replace it. And that's just as fine. That does not degrade Bitcoin really though and as mentioned is the same for any other currency or asset - nothing special about Bitcoin.

 

In many places on earth assets are exchanged with little regard to their value denominated in USD. A Thai farmer selling a watermelon on the local market cares very little about the USD value of that watermelon. The USD does not gain its power from taxation. Other fiat currencies would have the same power. The USD gets its power from 1. the US being the most powerful country in the world 2. the US being pretty stable compared to others 3. the US being involved in a lot of trade around the world and USD easy to exchange.

Point 1,2,3 are absolutely correct, resulting in "trust", making it a "common denominator" for worldwide trade.
If the Thai Farmer should decide to export his water melons, he would have to take a glance at the US$/BAHT exchange rate occasionally. He is not likely going to look at the price of Bitcoin.

 

[swissie]

On 4/16/2023 at 12:22 AM, Neeranam said:

When did you first hear about bitcoin.?

Can't remember. But I also can't remember when I heard "Hello sexy man" for the first time.

[Neeranam]

6 minutes ago, swissie said:

Can't remember. But I also can't remember when I heard "Hello sexy man" for the first time.

Hurrah, you answered, well kind of ???? 

 

many of the BTC haters knew about BTC 10 years ago and are bitter as they didn't buy. 

[swissie]

On 4/15/2023 at 10:50 AM, Lacessit said:

IMO bitcoin is identical to a religion, something that can't be seen or felt. The leaders of any religion fare much better than the followers.

Precious metals are tangible stores of value, as governments debase their currencies the price goes up. I've never lost money buying gold, silver and platinum, so I will stick with what I know.

Amen! The priests have alwas fared better than their followers. Hate to think that the creators of "new cryptos" (weekly or monthly) are the modern day priests.

[Hummin]

10 minutes ago, swissie said:

 

This brings me in "devils-kitchen". Men claim, that we don't know the "inner-workings" of women. That has not stopped us from keeping our hands off women.

 
.

 

Thats an excuse for not trying, and also a defensive statement after failing.

 

Bitcoin the same but different 

 

 

[swissie]

4 minutes ago, Hummin said:

Thats an excuse for not trying, and also a defensive statement after failing.

 

Bitcoin the same but different 

 

 

I can do better: We all should have bought "Apple", 500 years ago.

[ozimoron]

23 minutes ago, swissie said:

I can do better: We all should have bought "Apple", 500 years ago.

Just not today. At least so far.

[Hummin]

35 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Hurrah, you answered, well kind of ???? 

 

many of the BTC haters knew about BTC 10 years ago and are bitter as they didn't buy. 

There is some ethical issues connected to bitcoin, but I do not expect anyone who is involved to admit there is complicated issues connected to bitcoin itself, the trading, and the methods of use who support grey markeds and illegal markeds.

[eisfeld]

2 hours ago, swissie said:

Point 1,2,3 are absolutely correct, resulting in "trust", making it a "common denominator" for worldwide trade.
If the Thai Farmer should decide to export his water melons, he would have to take a glance at the US$/BAHT exchange rate occasionally. He is not likely going to look at the price of Bitcoin.

 

Because he's not trading with Bitcoinland. And if he sells his goods to China then he isn't either looking at the USD/THB exchange rate.

 

2 hours ago, swissie said:

Above comment makes it clear to me, that unless someone is a "computer-wizard", it is not possible to understand the "inner-workings" of crypto currencies. I happen to believe that 95% of people are not computer-wizards. Caution would suggest, if something is not understood, better "hands-off".

99.999% of people (including me) probably don't understand all the inner workings of the fiat currency and banking system. Not a reason to keep hands off of it. It's much much easier to understand the Bitcoin system than global finance.

 

2 hours ago, swissie said:

Amen! The priests have alwas fared better than their followers. Hate to think that the creators of "new cryptos" (weekly or monthly) are the modern day priests.

Notice how this again is the same in traditional finance. The bankers are usually making more money than their clients ????

[ozimoron]

3 minutes ago, eisfeld said:

Because he's not trading with Bitcoinland. And if he sells his goods to China then he isn't either looking at the USD/THB exchange rate.

 

99.999% of people (including me) probably don't understand all the inner workings of the fiat currency and banking system. Not a reason to keep hands off of it. It's much much easier to understand the Bitcoin system than global finance.

 

Notice how this again is the same in traditional finance. The bankers are usually making more money than their clients ????

Not all of them. Small banks in the US fail every year. The larger banks make out like bandits. JPM just posted a 30% increase in revenue

[eisfeld]

12 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

Not all of them. Small banks in the US fail every year. The larger banks make out like bandits. JPM just posted a 30% increase in revenue

Well yes, that's why I said usually. And of course in crypto you have just as many fails. I just wanted to show how similar the crypto and traditional finance systems are in some regards because many of the features of cryptocurrencies are shown as a downside while ignoring that it's the same in the one the people already have been using.

 

People who understand how a system works can make more money with it than people who don't understand it. Applies to nearly everything ????