Subway Vigilante Who Choked Jordan Neely to Be Arrested on Manslaughter Charge

[Hanaguma]

5 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

We do not know all the details.

 

Quite likely at least some of the passengers pulled the emergency cord which would have stopped the train between stations.

 

What is sure is that there were many eyewitnesses as well as video footage though the latter likely started somewhere midway through the event.

 

Unless the accused plea bargains, there will be a jury trial.  Many of the witnesses will testify. Video footage will be shown. Other evidence we know nothing about may be introduced. The accused may or may not testify in his own defense.

 

These jurors will be New Yorkers and  certainly have experienced subway travel including scenes of people acting out due to mental illness or drugs - everyone has, it is very prevalent.  They will also have access to far more information than anyone posting here has. The prosecution and defense attorneys between them will try to weed out those with pre-strong prejudices or pre-concieved verdicts in mind (in either direction). 

 

I suggest everyone take a deep breathe and step back and just let this legal process unfold.

You are the voice of reason.

 

Which is no fun at all when we want to slag each other off  ( ˙꒳˙ )

[JimGant]

3 hours ago, Hanaguma said:

In this case, the deceased had more than 40 previous arrests. Fourty.  Including assault on  an elderly woman and attempted kidnapping of a child.

Why is this aspect of the situation, which I believe, not foremost on the news? Oh, I get it -- would alter the mind set of, "poor, disadvantaged black kid mindlessly attacked by a white male." The real story here: Don't become a good samaritan, if there's any chance the race card would be played. I hope some passengers on that train will come forth and say, they're thankful someone stepped forward to confront a scary dude. Just sorry it resulted in an accidental death (or, maybe not, if future rides on the train result in less confrontation with scary weirdos).

[Berkshire]

15 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

Doesn't have to ignore instructions to vote not guilty. Just needs to believe that the behavior, under the circumstances, was not reckless.

I wonder if Neely's medical condition matters in a case like this.  For example, what if he was high on meth?  In other words, did his condition contribute to his untimely death?  I recall the defense in George Floyd's case brought up the same....didn't seem to matter.  Disclaimer: I don't know whether Neely was on drugs.  But he was acting in ways that seemed like he may have been.

[Hanaguma]

1 minute ago, JimGant said:

Why is this aspect of the situation, which I believe, not foremost on the news? Oh, I get it -- would alter the mind set of, "poor, disadvantaged black kid mindlessly attacked by a white male." The real story here: Don't become a good samaritan, if there's any chance the race card would be played. I hope some passengers on that train will come forth and say, they're thankful someone stepped forward to confront a scary dude. Just sorry it resulted in an accidental death (or, maybe not, if future rides on the train result in less confrontation with scary weirdos).

What is even worse is the attempt to sway the narrative by portraying him as a busker, a Michael Jackson lookalike... then they show pictures from 10 plus years ago, when he was a teenager and not homeless, looking innocent and harmless.  Anyone who has dealt with himm lately has a different take.

[Sheryl]

39 minutes ago, Berkshire said:

I wonder if Neely's medical condition matters in a case like this.  For example, what if he was high on meth?  In other words, did his condition contribute to his untimely death?  I recall the defense in George Floyd's case brought up the same....didn't seem to matter.  Disclaimer: I don't know whether Neely was on drugs.  But he was acting in ways that seemed like he may have been.

It did not matter in George Floyd case because medical evidence made it clear that  prolonged choking was the primary  cause of death. Frankly the evidence in that case was so overwhelming that I think defense lawyers had to grasp at straws.

 

I am sure detailed medical evidence will be presented in this case as well. But the authorities would be unlikely to have charged  him if medical evidence was not clear on cause of death.

 

It is not like what was done was not likely to cause death. A choke hold with sustained neck compression for 15 minutes is highly likely to kill. Even a young healthy person. And hard to make a plausible case that it was unavoidably necessary for the duration especially once the man was down and others were also helping to restrain him. 

 

Where this case differs from George Floyd is (1) accused is civilian not law enforcement officer and (2) the victim was threatening (or perceived to be threatening) members of the general public. 

 

 

 

 

[JimGant]

2 hours ago, Jingthing said:

But sorry civilized societies of laws can't condone vigilante justice.

Yeah, all we can do is watch Charles Bronson's "Death Wish" (and follow on sequels) and wish that somehow real life could imitate Hollywood.

[Hanaguma]

30 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

It did not matter in George Floyd case because medical evidence made it clear that  prolonged choking was the primary  cause of death. Frankly the evidence in that case was so overwhelming that I think defense lawyers had to grasp at straws.

 

I am sure detailed medical evidence will be presented in this case as well. But the authorities would be unlikely to have charged  him if medical evidence was not clear on cause of death.

 

It is not like what was done was not likely to cause death. A choke hold with sustained neck compression for 15 minutes is highly likely to kill. Even a young healthy person. And hard to make a plausible case that it was unavoidably necessary for the duration especially once the man was down and others were also helping to restrain him. 

 

Where this case differs from George Floyd is (1) accused is civilian not law enforcement officer and (2) the victim was threatening (or perceived ro be threatening) members of the general public. 

 

 

 

 

Which is why we need to ascertain the timing. Assuming the first 911 call was made around the same time as the altercation got physical, it was 4-5 minutes before the police arrived.  Otherwise, we have the deceased having been restrained for 10 minutes before anyone called 911, which seems unlikely given the number of 911 calls the police got.

[d4dang]

7 hours ago, bamnutsak said:

If the only outcome of a confrontation has to result in death then I fear where we might be headed.

 

Given the choice to a.) walk away, or b.) physical action resulting in the death of a human being, I'll go with a.)

 

 

It's also disappointing to read about some other riders on the car, two of whom (visible in the photo above I think) were said to have held Mr. Neely's arms during the ~ two minute choke out, and others said or did nothing.

 

 

I'm sure (my opinion, I haven't ridden the NYC subway in 25 years) there are dozens of disagreements and confrontations on the subway daily. I guess I'm thankful all do not result in death.

 

 

 

 

I wonder how many riders are armed?

[riclag]

He reacted after things got out of hand ! He’s a hero . Imop

https://nypost.com/2023/05/12/jordan-neely-chokehold-death-witness-praying-for-daniel-penny/

 

 

“He said, ‘I don’t care. 
 

“He said, ‘I would kill a motherf—er. I don’t care. I’ll take a bullet. I’ll go to jail.’”

[Tug]

3 hours ago, riclag said:

He reacted after things got out of hand ! He’s a hero . Imop

https://nypost.com/2023/05/12/jordan-neely-chokehold-death-witness-praying-for-daniel-penny/

 

 

“He said, ‘I don’t care. 
 

“He said, ‘I would kill a motherf—er. I don’t care. I’ll take a bullet. I’ll go to jail.’”

He may have his wish granted part of me hopes not obviously the guy was being a nuisance at best a danger at worst the marine dude should have known 15 minutes in a chokehold is two long he’s liable 

[bendejo]

12 hours ago, placeholder said:

How about call 911? Or notify the conductor?

A conductor is not a security guard or LE.  He would probably go into his booth and lock himself in.  These people were being attacked by crazy guy, not a cute MJ impersonator.

 

12 hours ago, Sheryl said:

It is stated by witnesses that he held him, with pressure on his neck, for at least 15 minutes,.

I would doubt this as, unless the train was stalled (stopped between stations) or going very slow for some reason, the stations in the NYC subway are not that far apart.  Exceptions would be river crossing, but at normal speed these would be less than 10 minutes.

 

 

[bendejo]

This story shows the essential difference between a soldier and a policeman.  A soldier is taught to kill, a policeman is (theoretically) trained to subdue, disarm, de-escalate, arrest, etc. 

 

I am disgusted with the way this is being turned into a racial incident.  If the victim was white the story would not have made international news.  Anyone who rides the NYC subway regularly will have witnessed this, and knows there are no ethnic exclusions.

 

I'm not saying he deserved to be killed, but some media outlets are making it sound like he was an innocent passenger singled out by a vigilante patrol.  Others, like the NY Post (a Murdoch trash product) are using this to promote racist bilge.

 

 

[Jingthing]

I got further details on this incident (the victim didn't actually threaten anyone physically or verbally) and am now of the opinion that this was definitely murder and they are undercharging. Yes he was a total mess and making people uncomfortable. That isn't even enough to justify touching him.  I still think the intentions were probably basically good but incredibly misdirected.

 

It's racial in the sense that it's a verifible fact that much of the general public feels threatened by black men in ways they don't feel threatened by white men.

 

I doubt with the same behavior that a white man would have been murdered.

Edited May 14, 2023 by Jingthing

[bamnutsak]

1 hour ago, Jingthing said:

they are undercharging

The Grand Jury might offer Manslaugher in the First Degree, but the prosecutor will need to present a ton of evidence supporting "intent". That might be impossible.

 

 

[Credo]

On 5/11/2023 at 8:06 PM, Hanaguma said:

Talk to anyone who has ridden the subway in NYC lately. It is not good. Not safe. No police in sight.  No escape when you are in a deep hole in the ground, trapped in a metal tube, and confronted by an aggressive man with obvious mental health problems.  

 

In this case, the deceased had more than 40 previous arrests. Fourty.  Including assault on  an elderly woman and attempted kidnapping of a child. There is NO WAY he should have been on the street roaming free. 

 

As for the brave Marine who did the right thing, he deserves a commendation. He stepped in to protect his fellow New Yorkers from a threat.  Also notice in the video footage that, once he felt Neely had been subdued, he and others tried to HELP him. They rolled him into the "recovery position" and still had to wait for any law enforcement.  IMHO he did his best in a bad situation. 

Not true.  I was just recently in New York and rode the subway all over the place.  Never had a single problem, never saw a single incident of violence.  Never saw anyone yelling.  Oh, and I am someone.  

 

[Credo]

I have mixed feelings about this.  People who present themselves as being possibly dangerous may need to be dealt with.  What makes this situation problematic is that the guy may not have been particularly dangerous, and he may not have used any violence, but it's very different being in a confined space with someone who presents themselves as a problem.   

 

I most certainly feel sorry for everyone concerned.   

[Hanaguma]

7 hours ago, Credo said:

Not true.  I was just recently in New York and rode the subway all over the place.  Never had a single problem, never saw a single incident of violence.  Never saw anyone yelling.  Oh, and I am someone.  

 

Congratulations. You are the exception that does not disprove the general rule. Crime stats for the New York subway system are undeniable, and terrible.  More murders the past three years than the ten previous.

https://nypost.com/2022/10/11/nyc-subway-murders-jump-to-highest-levels-in-25-years-data/

[Chomper Higgot]

17 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

Congratulations. You are the exception that does not disprove the general rule. Crime stats for the New York subway system are undeniable, and terrible.  More murders the past three years than the ten previous.

https://nypost.com/2022/10/11/nyc-subway-murders-jump-to-highest-levels-in-25-years-data/

The subject of the thread is a crime committed in full view of onlookers and video Retford on the NY Subway.

 

So let’s not obfuscate that with an attempt to hide behind wider crime data.  
 

(In which other discussions is this game played I wonder and by who?)

[JonnyF]

Whilst I have some sympathy for Daniel Penny and believe he was trying to protect himself and the public, he clearly went too far. He should have released him once he lost consciousness. If Neely regained consciousness and started threatening people again he could have choked him out again, or simply beaten the daylights out of him.

 

To keep the choke hold for 15 minutes even after he lost consciousness was the wrong thing to do. I think he will be convicted but the sentence will be as lenient as possible.

 

Given Neely's criminal history (including breaking the jaw and orbital bone of an elderly lady), I don't think he will be a great loss to society.

[Credo]

1 hour ago, Hanaguma said:

Congratulations. You are the exception that does not disprove the general rule. Crime stats for the New York subway system are undeniable, and terrible.  More murders the past three years than the ten previous.

https://nypost.com/2022/10/11/nyc-subway-murders-jump-to-highest-levels-in-25-years-data/

....but you said anyone.  I am someone and it does not reflect my experience.  It doesn't reflect the experience of others I know.  But since you seem to be an expert on Subway Murders, will this be listed as a murder on the subway?

 

[Bkk Brian]

Just catching up on some info on this tragic event:

 

Jordan had a number of interventions from mental health with the last one being in Feb of this year where to avoid prison the judge told him go from court to live at a treatment facility in the Bronx, and stay clean for 15 months. In return, his felony conviction would be reduced.  The prosecutor also agreed. "Mary Weisgerber, a prosecutor, said. “This is a wonderful opportunity to turn things around, and we’re glad to give it to you,” 

 

He lasted just 13 days before leaving the center. After that he had various interactions with out reach workers but they are not notified of arrest warrants.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/07/nyregion/jordan-neely-daniel-penny-nyc-subway.html

 

In the video of the struggle and strangle hold another passenger can be heard saying:

“You don’t have to catch a murder charge,” he said. “You got a hell of a chokehold, man.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/11/nyregion/daniel-penny-charges-jordan-neely-subway-death.html

[bamnutsak]

33 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

Actually not. It is in the media. 

OK, so the media of your dreams.

 

 

 

[Scott]

Posts and replies with unsubstantiated claims have been removed.  Continued citing things as facts without providing substantiation will result in a suspension.