Nigel Farage: ‘Brexit has failed’

[RuamRudy]

Kate Hoey must be proud of herself - another Brexit triumph hopefully in the post: Irish reunification. 

 

Sinn Féin becomes biggest party in local government in Northern Ireland

Sinn Féin has become the biggest party in Northern Ireland local government after stunning gains in council elections.

It swept past the Democratic Unionist party (DUP) and became the first nationalist party to hold the most council seats, delivering a political and psychological blow to unionism.

[James105]

16 hours ago, josephbloggs said:

"Allowed to be involved". Ha ha ha. Perhaps if he had won on any of the seven occasions he had stood for office he would have been "allowed" to be involved. That's generally how it works.
 

Government advisors are not elected, they are chosen by the elected government ministers to.... advise.   That's generally how it works.   Some may even suggest that the man who made it his life's work to get the UK out of the EU and is probably the single most influential person for making it happen would have a unique insight/vision for how the UK would operate outside of the EU.   I would suggest that the government did not have such a vision and tried to make Brexit a slightly worse version of what the UK had in the EU as they didn't believe in it or had their heads firmly planted in the EU trough.  

 

Would it have been a failure if Farage had been involved?   We will never know.   

[placeholder]

1 hour ago, James105 said:

Government advisors are not elected, they are chosen by the elected government ministers to.... advise.   That's generally how it works.   Some may even suggest that the man who made it his life's work to get the UK out of the EU and is probably the single most influential person for making it happen would have a unique insight/vision for how the UK would operate outside of the EU.   I would suggest that the government did not have such a vision and tried to make Brexit a slightly worse version of what the UK had in the EU as they didn't believe in it or had their heads firmly planted in the EU trough.  

 

Would it have been a failure if Farage had been involved?   We will never know.   

Yes, Farage's deep knowledge of economics, particularly trade, would have been a major resource for the government to draw on.

[James105]

5 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Yes, Farage's deep knowledge of economics, particularly trade, would have been a major resource for the government to draw on.

What a silly statement.   When did I suggest that Farage should be the only person that advises the government and not draw from all sources of expertise?   The people do not elect experts to govern, they elect representatives.   It is down to those representatives to choose experts to advise them.   What the UK government definitely lacked was a "vision" for how the UK should look 5/10/20/50 years after Brexit.    Could Farage have provided that vision?  Maybe/maybe not.   We will never know.  

[placeholder]

1 minute ago, James105 said:

What a silly statement.   When did I suggest that Farage should be the only person that advises the government and not draw from all sources of expertise?   The people do not elect experts to govern, they elect representatives.   It is down to those representatives to choose experts to advise them.   What the UK government definitely lacked was a "vision" for how the UK should look 5/10/20/50 years after Brexit.    Could Farage have provided that vision?  Maybe/maybe not.   We will never know.  

Could a random pedestrian recruited from the street have offered that vision? We'll never know. What we do know is that there's in nothing in Farage's history or comments that suggests he has access to any special insight. All we can do is judge someone on the basis of what they know and what they say. No evidence that Farage understands anything much except how to mobilize resentment.

[josephbloggs]

3 hours ago, James105 said:

Government advisors are not elected, they are chosen by the elected government ministers to.... advise.   That's generally how it works.   Some may even suggest that the man who made it his life's work to get the UK out of the EU and is probably the single most influential person for making it happen would have a unique insight/vision for how the UK would operate outside of the EU.   I would suggest that the government did not have such a vision and tried to make Brexit a slightly worse version of what the UK had in the EU as they didn't believe in it or had their heads firmly planted in the EU trough.  

Yes, that is correct. And it is telling that even though he was the arch-Brexiteer no one thought to ask his advise. I wonder what the reason might be?

This is obviously personal opinion (shared by many others), but Farage had no clue on how the country should be run, he didn't care what happened after Brexit, he only had one goal and it was mostly for his personal gain. Once achieved he moves on, he has no interest in ongoing work, he just pops up whenever he wants a bit of time in the spotlight.

It is also telling that not only has no government ever asked for his advice but the electorate have never decided he was worth having as an MP. Because (luckily) we don't want his division at the national level.

 

Quote

Would it have been a failure if Farage had been involved?   We will never know.   

I think we know. There is nothing in his history to show he is a visionary, a leader, an intellectual, or particularly insightful. And we also know that Brexit was doomed to be a failure from the very start - that was always very obvious. And alas it has come to pass.

 

Edited May 23, 2023 by josephbloggs

[Chomper Higgot]

8 hours ago, youreavinalaff said:

Complex? That's funny.

 

You missed out the most important and relevant part. Never mind. Keep your blinkers on if it suits you.

Getting you back to topic.

 

Brexit has failed,

 

Even Farage is now admitting this truth.

[Chomper Higgot]

4 hours ago, nauseus said:

I would rather say that it was sabotaged from the start.

I’m sure you would.

 

But sabotaged by a Tory Government in possession of an unassailable majority?

 

There’s a gap between what was promised and and what was delivered.

 

Perhaps, and you should consider this, what was promised was a pack of lies.

 

There are no unicorns grazing on sunlit upland pastures.

 

The foundations of Brexit were a lie.

 

Brexit has failed, as I and many others said it would.

 

I do so hate saying ‘I told you so’.

[Chomper Higgot]

3 hours ago, James105 said:

Government advisors are not elected, they are chosen by the elected government ministers to.... advise.   That's generally how it works.   Some may even suggest that the man who made it his life's work to get the UK out of the EU and is probably the single most influential person for making it happen would have a unique insight/vision for how the UK would operate outside of the EU.   I would suggest that the government did not have such a vision and tried to make Brexit a slightly worse version of what the UK had in the EU as they didn't believe in it or had their heads firmly planted in the EU trough.  

 

Would it have been a failure if Farage had been involved?   We will never know.   

You are correct, they are chosen.

 

They don’t appoint themselves.

 

PM May gave Farage the cold shoulder, his experience running his mouth on BBC Question Time wasn’t a qualification for the job.

 

Let’s live with and deal with the reality we have, and avoid yet more Brexit pipe dreams of what might have been.

 

 

Edited May 23, 2023 by Chomper Higgot

[Chomper Higgot]

2 hours ago, James105 said:

What a silly statement.   When did I suggest that Farage should be the only person that advises the government and not draw from all sources of expertise?   The people do not elect experts to govern, they elect representatives.   It is down to those representatives to choose experts to advise them.   What the UK government definitely lacked was a "vision" for how the UK should look 5/10/20/50 years after Brexit.    Could Farage have provided that vision?  Maybe/maybe not.   We will never know.  

What then is Farage an expert on?

 

[JayClay]

13 hours ago, youreavinalaff said:

The current unemployment rate in UK is 3.8%. That's quite a lot of people.

And how many of those unemployed live in the vicinity of the farms that need fruit pickers?

 

Or are you suggesting that people leave their homes and families so that they can get some seasonal work at the bottom of the pay scale?

 

If you are suggesting that then I can understand why you may be a Brexit supporter...

[JayClay]

12 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Another example of were the Left and Right have swapped sides .

  Myself a Right winger in favour of the poorer people getting a decent living wage and Employers treated them decently instead of exploiting the poor .

   Maybe I should swap my Red MAGA hat for a Red Star hat ?

*Power to the people* 

I'd suggest that you have probably only recently taken that stance because you think that it works to back up your current argument.

 

It is, of course, a poorly thought out stance. Inflation is already in overdrive and, in the middle of a cost-of-living crisis,you want to push the costs of locally produced fruit and veg up even higher.

 

Of course that will mean local produce is no longer able to compete price-wise with imported goods so the businesses just fold because they have nobody to sell to.

 

Unless your newly-found concerns for the poor fruit pickers includes the government paying some pretty impressive subsidies, it's unworkable.  

Edited May 23, 2023 by JayClay

[Chomper Higgot]

2 minutes ago, JayClay said:

I'd suggest that you have probably only recently taken that stance because it suits your viewpoint.

 

It is, of course, a poorly thought out argument. Inflation is already in overdrive and, in the middle of a cost-of-living crisis,you want to push the costs of locally produced fruit and veg up even higher.

 

Of course that will mean local produce is no longer able to compete price-wise with imported goods so the businesses just fold because they have nobody to sell to.

 

Unless your newly-found concerns for the poor fruit pickers includes the government paying some pretty impressive subsidies, it's unworkable.  

It’s not simply ‘fruit’ it’s the far more impactful vegetables and food processing.

 

 

[James105]

27 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

What then is Farage an expert on?

 

I have no idea, I'm not a Farage expert but he clearly believed that the UK would be better off outside of the EU.   Let's not pretend that his thinking was to leave the EU and then try and stay as closely aligned as possible whilst keeping all the regulations that were part of being in the EU as then the better option would of course be to just stay in the EU.   

 

All the UK has done is tinkered around the edges trying to please everyone which of course means pleasing nobody and the inevitable failure that follows.   There was an opportunity presented to radically rethink how the UK does business and it was an opportunity squandered by people who had their noses too deeply entrenched in the EU trough or just plain old incompetency.   Cameron was right to resign as he didn't believe in it and unfortunately neither were the opportunists that followed, no matter what they said in public.  

[James105]

39 minutes ago, JayClay said:

I'd suggest that you have probably only recently taken that stance because you think that it works to back up your current argument.

 

It is, of course, a poorly thought out stance. Inflation is already in overdrive and, in the middle of a cost-of-living crisis,you want to push the costs of locally produced fruit and veg up even higher.

 

So in the middle of a cost of living crisis you want the people who pick the fruit and veg to not be paid appropriately for the work they are doing?   

[Chomper Higgot]

3 minutes ago, James105 said:

I have no idea, I'm not a Farage expert but he clearly believed that the UK would be better off outside of the EU.   Let's not pretend that his thinking was to leave the EU and then try and stay as closely aligned as possible whilst keeping all the regulations that were part of being in the EU as then the better option would of course be to just stay in the EU.   

 

All the UK has done is tinkered around the edges trying to please everyone which of course means pleasing nobody and the inevitable failure that follows.   There was an opportunity presented to radically rethink how the UK does business and it was an opportunity squandered by people who had their noses too deeply entrenched in the EU trough or just plain old incompetency.   Cameron was right to resign as he didn't believe in it and unfortunately neither were the opportunists that followed, no matter what they said in public.  

Oddly there wasn’t a plan.

 

Nobody on the Leave side of the argument ever presented any plan.

 

All arguments against Brexit were filed  under ‘Project Fear’.

 

And yet here it is, ‘Brexit has failed’.

[Chomper Higgot]

1 minute ago, James105 said:

So in the middle of a cost of living crisis you want the people who pick the fruit and veg to not be paid appropriately for the work they are doing?   

The rates of pay were very acceptable to EU workers from eastern EU nations.

 

Until they were no longer welcome to come and do this vital work.

[JayClay]

Just now, James105 said:

So in the middle of a cost of living crisis you want the people who pick the fruit and veg to not be paid appropriately for the work they are doing?   

I want everyone to be paid a decent wage. But I also live in the real world.

 

Wages go up, prices go up. Prices go up, other people's wages have to go up. Export market collapses, government has to subsidise. Government can't afford to subsidise. Government collapses.

 

There's a reason work like this was generally popular with either people from poorer countries, or for people who came to earn extra pocket money for thier summer travels.

 

Unless you want a total revolution, you are providing criticisms without solutions. A true brexiteer if ever there was one.

[youreavinalaff]

1 hour ago, JayClay said:

And how many of those unemployed live in the vicinity of the farms that need fruit pickers?

 

Or are you suggesting that people leave their homes and families so that they can get some seasonal work at the bottom of the pay scale?

 

If you are suggesting that then I can understand why you may be a Brexit supporter...

Do you really believe the only jobs out there are picking fruit? Oh dear.

 

How many of the unemployed live in the vicinity of a supermarket, factory, warehouse or hospital? Just 4 examples of where jobs are available.

[JayClay]

5 minutes ago, youreavinalaff said:

Do you really believe the only jobs out there are picking fruit? Oh dear.

That was the topic of conversation as there are particular shortages and food is going rotten.

 

As you have proven that you just want to deflect the argument in another direction any time you're challenged, I have no interest in branching out into discussions of other areas like supermarkets I'm not even sure if they are actually short of staff - I certainly haven't heard of any shortages in that area.

 

And as for hospitals... training for positions like that take years and could not be filled by the type of people who are currently unemployed, anyway.

[RayC]

6 hours ago, nauseus said:

I would rather say that it was sabotaged from the start.

As @Chomper points out, nobody on the Leave side of the argument ever presented any plan for life post-Brexit.

 

Always someone else's fault, which appears to be the default position for Brexiters. No accountability and no responsibility as usual.

[Mac Mickmanus]

2 hours ago, JayClay said:

I'd suggest that you have probably only recently taken that stance because you think that it works to back up your current argument.

 

It is, of course, a poorly thought out stance. Inflation is already in overdrive and, in the middle of a cost-of-living crisis,you want to push the costs of locally produced fruit and veg up even higher.

 

Of course that will mean local produce is no longer able to compete price-wise with imported goods so the businesses just fold because they have nobody to sell to.

 

Unless your newly-found concerns for the poor fruit pickers includes the government paying some pretty impressive subsidies, it's unworkable.  

I have always had the opinion that workers deserve decent pay .

   The current cost of living crisis is a temporary thing and it will all blow over soon and everything will be back to normal .

   Isn't it now very difficult for the U.K to trade with the E.U Countries ?

Edited May 23, 2023 by Mac Mickmanus

[Mac Mickmanus]

7 minutes ago, RayC said:

As @Chomper points out, nobody on the Leave side of the argument ever presented any plan for life post-Brexit.

 

Always someone else's fault, which appears to be the default position for Brexiters. No accountability and no responsibility as usual.

OK, so who has been responsibly for running of the U.K post Brexit ?

  Are you suggesting that Nigel Farage and UKIP have been running the U.K or has  it been the remain Conservative Party ?

[Chomper Higgot]

36 minutes ago, youreavinalaff said:

Do you really believe the only jobs out there are picking fruit? Oh dear.

 

How many of the unemployed live in the vicinity of a supermarket, factory, warehouse or hospital? Just 4 examples of where jobs are available.

But the worker shortage that is driving up food inflation is on farms and in food processing factories, not located in rural areas.

Nobody is arguing there aren’t job’s available, the issue is there are job vacancies but nobody to fill those job vacancies, either through a lack of skills, not living in the areas where the jobs are or not fit and able to do the jobs.
 

[Chomper Higgot]

22 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

I have always had the opinion that workers deserve decent pay .

   The current cost of living crisis is a temporary thing and it will all blow over soon and everything will be back to normal

The current gap between worker incomes and the cost of living has been growing since the Tories took office, exponentially so since Brexit.

[youreavinalaff]

29 minutes ago, JayClay said:

That was the topic of conversation as there are particular shortages and food is going rotten.

 

As you have proven that you just want to deflect the argument in another direction any time you're challenged, I have no interest in branching out into discussions of other areas like supermarkets I'm not even sure if they are actually short of staff - I certainly haven't heard of any shortages in that area.

 

And as for hospitals... training for positions like that take years and could not be filled by the type of people who are currently unemployed, anyway.

No deflection. You quoted and asked me "what unemployed?". I answered.

 

Shortages of supermarket jobs have been well publicised. There are many jobs in hospitals that require minimal " on the job training" such as; porters, HCAs, patient transport drivers, cooks, kitchen staff and domestics.

 

Warehouses, Amazon and Lidl are always advertising.

 

Factories, just ask Chomper. He keeps saying food processing is badly understaffed.

[vinny41]

It would appear a  similar situation for the rest of Europe

Profits rise while wages fall

Real wages are falling while real profits continue to grow in half of EU member states, new ETUC research on the cost-of-living crisis shows.  

Real wages, which indicates pay after inflation is taken into account, have fallen in every EU member state this year by as much as 9%. 

https://www.etuc.org/en/pressrelease/profits-rise-while-wages-fall

 

[youreavinalaff]

5 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

But the worker shortage that is driving up food inflation is on farms and in food processing factories, not located in rural areas.

Nobody is arguing there aren’t job’s available, the issue is there are job vacancies but nobody to fill those job vacancies, either through a lack of skills, not living in the areas where the jobs are or not fit and able to do the jobs.
 

Looks like you quoted the wrong person with the " not located in rural areas".

 

 

[JayClay]

29 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Isn't it now very difficult for the U.K to trade with the E.U Countries ?

Yes it is. Which is why if the farming industry is destroyed, as appears to be your wish, we will have even worse supply issues than we do now.

[RayC]

16 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

OK, so who has been responsibly for running of the U.K post Brexit ?

  Are you suggesting that Nigel Farage and UKIP have been running the U.K or has  it been the remain Conservative Party ?

I'm sure that it was unintentional but thank you for providing further evidence to support the idea that "It is always someone else's fault".

 

The Tory Party which I refer to in discussion is the one which was purged of its' pro-EU MPs prior to the 2019 election, has been led by 3 pro-Brexit PMs and has had the likes of Bill Cash(!!!) and Jacob Rees-Moog in the cabinet.

 

Is that the same 'Remain' Conservative Party which you are thinking of?