Newsom threatens kidnapping charges after Florida dumps migrants at church

[candide]

15 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

According to cbs news, there are more than 7 million working age men slacking off and not working.  They could easily fill these jobs given the right incentive.

 

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/men-workforce-work-companies-struggle-fill-jobs-manufacturing/

 

Add, as I said before, a workable guest worker program and things could go a long way to getting better. But letting people rush the border and scatter is not good for the economy, nor is it good for the people doing it. 

Have you read the article? People don't want to work in the industry because they perceive those jobs as dirty and not gratifying jobs, and they would be willing to replace wetbacks in the fields?

 

Quote from your link:

"More than 770,000 manufacturing jobs are open right now, according to the latest federal count, from November. The number has surged in recent years as companies reinvest in American-made products — or try to. 

With manufacturing workers earning more than $30 an hour on average, Timmons said the problem is not the pay, but the perception."

[EVENKEEL]

Tell a person the job is entry level and entails cleaning toilet, mopping floor and washing dishes working 7 days/week but in a few years 75K usd is possible and many would still not take it. 

[heybruce]

11 hours ago, Hanaguma said:

Yes they will. This is just a shibboleth that insults Americans' integrity and work ethic.  Unfortunately employers have gotten lazy and taken the easy road, which is using illegal labour.  Low pay and bad conditions.  Americans do plenty of "dirty jobs" from trash collection to sewer repair. No reason they won't do these jobs as well, as long as the pay is fair.   The majority of illegal immigrants work in the service and construction industries anyway, not in agriculture. These are jobs that millions of Americans already do. 

Let's ignore the fact that many farms and businesses would close if they had to pay decent wages and benefits, and take a look at long term demographics and economics.

 

"The provisional total fertility rate
for the United States in 2022 was
1,665.0 births per 1,000 women,
essentially unchanged from the rate in
2021 (1,664.0). The total fertility rate
declined by an average of 2% per year
from 2014 through 2020, then rose
1% from 2020 to 2021 (3,8). The total
fertility rate estimates the number of
births that a hypothetical group of
1,000 women would have over their
lifetimes, based on the age-specific
birth rate in a given year."   https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/vsrr/vsrr028.pdf

 

In other words, the US is not getting the necessary 2000+ births per 1000 women that maintaining the population requires, it is falling far short of it.

 

That means declining population, a smaller number of people of working age supporting a growing population of seniors, a shrinking economy resulting in young people not only having to support too many old people but having restricted opportunities to invest for their own future, and the general decline of the country.

 

The US needs immigrants.  Fortunately the best, brightest, most ambitious and hard working people from around the world want to come to the US.  Unfortunately fear mongering politicians and the "I'm not racist I just don't like brown people" idiots don't want to let them in.

 

The best way to reduce illegal immigration is to greatly increase all levels of legal immigration.  That will also keep the US economy prosperous and the future bright.  It should be a  no-brainer, but apparently there are a lot of people with no brains.

[heybruce]

10 hours ago, Hanaguma said:

I foolishly believed the Center for American Progress...

https://www.americanprogress.org/press/release-millions-undocumented-immigrants-essential-americas-recovery-new-report-shows/

 

So you agree that the undocumented immigrant in the US should be given legal status?

 

From your source:

 

"Because of the critical role undocumented immigrants play contributing to the American economy, the report recommends that the Biden administration and Congress provide them with a path to legal status—both out of recognition for the work they have done and the sacrifices they have already made, and because of the important role they will play in helping to fight the pandemic in the months ahead and in rebuilding the country and our economy."

 

First provide a pathway to legal status and citizenship to the immigrants already in the country.

 

Then set up an efficient, effective system to bring in more immigrants.

 

After that, deal with remaining problems at the border.  Once people who want to come to the US to work can do so legally the border situation should be much more manageable.

[bendejo]

https://www.cbsnews.com/miami/news/law-targeting-undocumented-migrants-already-affecting-south-florida-farms/

What will be dying on the vine is Florida's agricultural industry.  With a lack of laborers to do the picking unharvested produce will rot in place.  These bean-brains aim for the outrage of the day with no regard for the Big Picture.  During the 1988 campaign George HW Bush one day presided over a massive citizenship oath ceremony in a stadium (it was either in Texas or Arizona).  Along with oath, they were also given voter registration forms, where they had to choose a party -- gee, I wonder which was the popular choice.  A lot of the people who came to the US from socialist countries were pretty much conservative: family values, Christianity, cultural traditions, respect for authority.  Florida guy and Texas guy helped snuff that out.

 

The immigrants from Latin America who do not work in agri-biz are housekeepers, kitchen help, landscaping, and all sorts of manual labor.  Jobs that US citizens won't do.

 

[EVENKEEL]

3 hours ago, bendejo said:

https://www.cbsnews.com/miami/news/law-targeting-undocumented-migrants-already-affecting-south-florida-farms/

What will be dying on the vine is Florida's agricultural industry.  With a lack of laborers to do the picking unharvested produce will rot in place.  These bean-brains aim for the outrage of the day with no regard for the Big Picture.  During the 1988 campaign George HW Bush one day presided over a massive citizenship oath ceremony in a stadium (it was either in Texas or Arizona).  Along with oath, they were also given voter registration forms, where they had to choose a party -- gee, I wonder which was the popular choice.  A lot of the people who came to the US from socialist countries were pretty much conservative: family values, Christianity, cultural traditions, respect for authority.  Florida guy and Texas guy helped snuff that out.

 

The immigrants from Latin America who do not work in agri-biz are housekeepers, kitchen help, landscaping, and all sorts of manual labor.  Jobs that US citizens won't do.

 

Problem is these same migrants also take carpenter and factory jobs. I picked apples in upsate NY mid 70's not a single latino in sight, all black. I was the only white kid. Worked the citrus packing houses in Florida, no latinos, all black and white. Worked dairiy in Ca, mostly Portugese. There was Mexicans in the peach orchards in Ca., but they moved from location to location. They lived in the shadows and their families remained in Mexico.

 

Point being we did well before and if forced to work to live we can do it again.

[Hanaguma]

4 hours ago, bendejo said:

https://www.cbsnews.com/miami/news/law-targeting-undocumented-migrants-already-affecting-south-florida-farms/

What will be dying on the vine is Florida's agricultural industry.  With a lack of laborers to do the picking unharvested produce will rot in place.  These bean-brains aim for the outrage of the day with no regard for the Big Picture.  During the 1988 campaign George HW Bush one day presided over a massive citizenship oath ceremony in a stadium (it was either in Texas or Arizona).  Along with oath, they were also given voter registration forms, where they had to choose a party -- gee, I wonder which was the popular choice.  A lot of the people who came to the US from socialist countries were pretty much conservative: family values, Christianity, cultural traditions, respect for authority.  Florida guy and Texas guy helped snuff that out.

 

The immigrants from Latin America who do not work in agri-biz are housekeepers, kitchen help, landscaping, and all sorts of manual labor.  Jobs that US citizens won't do.

 

If you read the stats, these are jobs that Americans ALREADY do. There is no job category that is only done by immigrants (legal or illegal). So obviously Americans are willing, if the incentives are there. Illegal immigrants undercut everyone by accepting low pay for the jobs, which artificially skews the job market and makes it hard for others to enter.  

 

That is why I mentioned a guest worker visa program as a possible solution.  Also penalize employers who exploit illegal migrants. If prices go up, so be it. If all the illegal workers 'come out of the shadows', prices will go up anyway because they will need to be fairly compensated, enrolled in social benefits, etc. 

[Rimmer]

An unattributed post has been removed

[heybruce]

2 hours ago, EVENKEEL said:

Problem is these same migrants also take carpenter and factory jobs. I picked apples in upsate NY mid 70's not a single latino in sight, all black. I was the only white kid. Worked the citrus packing houses in Florida, no latinos, all black and white. Worked dairiy in Ca, mostly Portugese. There was Mexicans in the peach orchards in Ca., but they moved from location to location. They lived in the shadows and their families remained in Mexico.

 

Point being we did well before and if forced to work to live we can do it again.

We could force people to take these jobs, but that seems like slavery.  Inducing people to do these jobs with much higher pay and benefits would bankrupt a lot of farms and businesses.

[EVENKEEL]

38 minutes ago, heybruce said:

We could force people to take these jobs, but that seems like slavery.  Inducing people to do these jobs with much higher pay and benefits would bankrupt a lot of farms and businesses.

So what happens to the people who say they can't find work and get public assistance while some industries beg for workers. What, they don't want to get dirty working so we just give them food and shelter. 

 

30 yrs ago it was already a problem with Mexicans taking lower wages, major companies paid crappy wages because there was Mexicans willing and happy to work cheap. Now, it's off the charts crazy.

 

 

 

[Hanaguma]

58 minutes ago, heybruce said:

We could force people to take these jobs, but that seems like slavery.  Inducing people to do these jobs with much higher pay and benefits would bankrupt a lot of farms and businesses.

Businesses whose business model relies on breaking the law by hiring illegal workers and underpaying them deserve to go bankrupt.  But if the playing field were leveled and all could compete in the labour market it would be better, and fairer as well.   

 

There is no such thing as a job "an American won't do". Americans do every job in the country already. There just need to be incentives to encourage more people to get off the sofa and get productive.  There are millions of healthy adults in the country that are not in the work force for no discernable reason.  That is a resource that needs to be tapped. 

[heybruce]

37 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

Businesses whose business model relies on breaking the law by hiring illegal workers and underpaying them deserve to go bankrupt.  But if the playing field were leveled and all could compete in the labour market it would be better, and fairer as well.   

 

There is no such thing as a job "an American won't do". Americans do every job in the country already. There just need to be incentives to encourage more people to get off the sofa and get productive.  There are millions of healthy adults in the country that are not in the work force for no discernable reason.  That is a resource that needs to be tapped. 

When the price of agricultural labor goes up, the price of the product goes up.  When labor costs go up a lot then the product price will also go up significantly.  That would make US produce uncompetitive with imports.

 

Unless we want almost every fruit and vegetable consumed in the US to be imported, we need to facilitate ways for immigrants to work legally in the US.  Easy to obtained work permits and easy to comply with rules for employers would be a good start.

[heybruce]

1 hour ago, EVENKEEL said:

So what happens to the people who say they can't find work and get public assistance while some industries beg for workers. What, they don't want to get dirty working so we just give them food and shelter. 

 

30 yrs ago it was already a problem with Mexicans taking lower wages, major companies paid crappy wages because there was Mexicans willing and happy to work cheap. Now, it's off the charts crazy.

 

Have you checked the unemployment figures lately?

[EVENKEEL]

1 hour ago, heybruce said:

Have you checked the unemployment figures lately?

Well then we don't need more migrants do we. 

[heybruce]

17 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said:

Well then we don't need more migrants do we. 

The low unemployment figures and vacant job descriptions indicate otherwise.

[Hanaguma]

5 minutes ago, heybruce said:

The low unemployment figures and vacant job descriptions indicate otherwise.

Be sure to also check out workforce participation numbers. Lots of able bodied people are sitting on the sidelines. Or rather, on the sofa. 

[EVENKEEL]

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/men-workforce-work-companies-struggle-fill-jobs-manufacturing/

 

In 1953, 98% of men in that age range had a job or were looking for one. That number has fallen ever since. Today, 7.2 million men have essentially dropped out of the workforce. 

[candide]

2 hours ago, Hanaguma said:

Businesses whose business model relies on breaking the law by hiring illegal workers and underpaying them deserve to go bankrupt.  But if the playing field were leveled and all could compete in the labour market it would be better, and fairer as well.   

 

There is no such thing as a job "an American won't do". Americans do every job in the country already. There just need to be incentives to encourage more people to get off the sofa and get productive.  There are millions of healthy adults in the country that are not in the work force for no discernable reason.  That is a resource that needs to be tapped. 

Yet, according to an article you linked before,  the industry cannot find enough workers, even when the wages are reasonable. How would it be possible to recruit more American workers for these extra jobs, as current job vacancies cannot be filled??

 

From your link:

"More than 770,000 manufacturing jobs are open right now, according to the latest federal count, from November. The number has surged in recent years as companies reinvest in American-made products — or try to. 

With manufacturing workers earning more than $30 an hour on average, Timmons said the problem is not the pay, but the perception."

 

[Hanaguma]

11 minutes ago, candide said:

Yet, according to an article you linked before,  the industry cannot find enough workers, even when the wages are reasonable. How would it be possible to recruit more American workers for these extra jobs, as current job vacancies cannot be filled??

 

From your link:

"More than 770,000 manufacturing jobs are open right now, according to the latest federal count, from November. The number has surged in recent years as companies reinvest in American-made products — or try to. 

With manufacturing workers earning more than $30 an hour on average, Timmons said the problem is not the pay, but the perception."

 

True. Because alongside the wages, there are also incentives to NOT work- especially overly generous social programs.  Plus overly kind parents who let their adult children skulk around the family home well past when they should be living as independent adults.  And partners in relationships who let their partners get away with being lazy.  

 

Nicholas Eberstadt wrote about this in his book "Men Without Work" published in 2016 and re-edited in 2022 to account for Covid. 

[heybruce]

18 hours ago, Hanaguma said:

Be sure to also check out workforce participation numbers. Lots of able bodied people are sitting on the sidelines. Or rather, on the sofa. 

Got any credible statistics on this? 

[heybruce]

18 hours ago, Hanaguma said:

True. Because alongside the wages, there are also incentives to NOT work- especially overly generous social programs.  Plus overly kind parents who let their adult children skulk around the family home well past when they should be living as independent adults.  And partners in relationships who let their partners get away with being lazy.  

 

Nicholas Eberstadt wrote about this in his book "Men Without Work" published in 2016 and re-edited in 2022 to account for Covid. 

What social programs are you referring to?

 

Are you suggesting government interference in how parents treat their kids?

[EVENKEEL]

25 minutes ago, heybruce said:

Got any credible statistics on this? 

I gave that link, 7+ million able bodied men sitting on the sidelines.

[heybruce]

23 hours ago, EVENKEEL said:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/men-workforce-work-companies-struggle-fill-jobs-manufacturing/

 

In 1953, 98% of men in that age range had a job or were looking for one. That number has fallen ever since. Today, 7.2 million men have essentially dropped out of the workforce. 

The link says 7.2 million men have dropped out of the workforce.  It did not call them able-bodied or state that they were turning down available work. 

 

It also mentioned skills mismatches and criminal records as an issue.  I'll add that if the job are not where the men live and the pay is insufficient for them to live where the work is, that too will keep them unemployed.

 

In other words, you're speculating without evidence.

[ozimoron]

On 6/7/2023 at 6:29 AM, EVENKEEL said:

Problem is these same migrants also take carpenter and factory jobs. I picked apples in upsate NY mid 70's not a single latino in sight, all black. I was the only white kid. Worked the citrus packing houses in Florida, no latinos, all black and white. Worked dairiy in Ca, mostly Portugese. There was Mexicans in the peach orchards in Ca., but they moved from location to location. They lived in the shadows and their families remained in Mexico.

 

Point being we did well before and if forced to work to live we can do it again.

 

On 6/7/2023 at 10:03 AM, EVENKEEL said:

So what happens to the people who say they can't find work and get public assistance while some industries beg for workers. What, they don't want to get dirty working so we just give them food and shelter. 

 

30 yrs ago it was already a problem with Mexicans taking lower wages, major companies paid crappy wages because there was Mexicans willing and happy to work cheap. Now, it's off the charts crazy.

 

 

 

You're blaming migrants for accepting jobs offered instead of the employers for offering them.

 

On 6/7/2023 at 12:43 PM, EVENKEEL said:

Well then we don't need more migrants do we. 

Actually, the US does need more migrants. It always has. Even in the wetback days, the Republican rannchers were sneaking them back in by the thousands after they were deported.

[Hanaguma]

10 minutes ago, heybruce said:

The link says 7.2 million men have dropped out of the workforce.  It did not call them able-bodied or state that they were turning down available work. 

 

It also mentioned skills mismatches and criminal records as an issue.  I'll add that if the job are not where the men live and the pay is insufficient for them to live where the work is, that too will keep them unemployed.

 

In other words, you're speculating without evidence.

Nicholas Eberstadt wrote about this earlier this year- a very good article IMHO:

 

https://www.nationalaffairs.com/publications/detail/education-and-men-without-work

 

What you say is part of the truth. Also the competition from illegal workers which drive wages down in certain jobs. Also changing family structure (fewer marriages and children) and dependency on various government assistance programs.  

 

Worth a read.  

[ozimoron]

15 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

Nicholas Eberstadt wrote about this earlier this year- a very good article IMHO:

 

https://www.nationalaffairs.com/publications/detail/education-and-men-without-work

 

What you say is part of the truth. Also the competition from illegal workers which drive wages down in certain jobs. Also changing family structure (fewer marriages and children) and dependency on various government assistance programs.  

 

Worth a read.  

Offering the jobs to migrant workers at wages below what citizens would accept is what is driving wages down. It's called exploitation.

[Hanaguma]

29 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

Offering the jobs to migrant workers at wages below what citizens would accept is what is driving wages down. It's called exploitation.

I know, that is what I said.  So, having illegal migrants contributes to the problem of otherwise able bodied Americans not being in the workforce. 

[ozimoron]

Just now, Hanaguma said:

I know, that is what I said.  So, having illegal migrants contributes to the problem of otherwise able bodied Americans not being in the workforce. 

If they weren't offered the jobs, their presence would have no effect. Offering them the jobs is a huge pull factor. Why blame the migrants?