Are Expats An Endangered Species?

[canuckamuck]

I see you have raised your financial standards but you still can't rise above the trash with your condescension and pointless arguments.

You’ve got nothing to gain in this fight Mobi, and now you have nothing to lose.

[Mobi]

I see you have raised your financial standards but you still can't rise above the trash with your condescension and pointless arguments.

You've got nothing to gain in this fight Mobi, and now you have nothing to lose.

Dear me.. oh dear me...

I wasn't aware that I was having a fight.

And why is it that I should have anything to gain? or lose?

I'm afraid you've lost me , my dear chap.

I thought this was a DEBATE about: "Are expats an endangered species?"

I have neither flamed, nor insulted anyone - just stated the facts as I see them.

If you and others take exception to my point of view and seek to flame me, then so be it.

I have to say that envy really does seem to be at the bottom of all this unpleasantness

Hm??

[Felt 35]

As English is clearly not your native tongue I will forgive you your misconceptions and utter failure to comprehend what has been said.

Correct.

I suppose the subtle nuances and understated humour of us Brits is completely beyond you

Yes, if to state that look down on less fortunate is humour.

Never mind, flame away if it makes you feel better

Support of the eventually not so fortunate is following my dictionary not to flame.

[Naam]

why is it that any mentioning of income or personal expenditure sparks immediately controversies and accusations? is it Thailand related? having lived in Europe, the U.S. and several other countries i never had that experience.

does it really matter whether somebody spends 500k Baht or 10k a month if in both cases the "spenders" are living a content or perhaps even a happy life?

just my two satangs

So, we can infer from Dr. Naam's last statement, that he only has song satang.

it's more like 3 satangs PeaceBlondie a fact is that i hold more and more back as far as my financial status is concerned although it is quite difficult when answering questions "how much do you spend on electricity" or "what offshore bank would you recommend".

some of us who have been lucky and made a bundle of money might brag, others just state facts. it is very difficult to find a way not to offend others or cause envy.

by the way, i am a "member" of a formerly loosely knit but since some years a quite close circle of investors, bankers and traders. we keep daily contact and meet personally several times a year in various parts of the world (including Pattaya, Thailand). we have members who's net worth is a mere 50k and members who's wealth exceed 50 million dollars. but money has NEVER been an issue. why can't it be the same in this forum?

[Naam]

Great men don’t brag about their fortune when on less fortunate mans land.

Felt,

i think very few of us lucky ones are bragging about our fortunes. it just so happens that during discussions our "fortunes" surface. would it make you happier if i claim my wife is cooking, washing the dishes and cleans our bathrooms, i mow the lawn, clip the plants and wash the cars although we have a full time maid, a gardener and a driver?

here we go! now i bragged... isn't it?

[Mobi]

As English is clearly not your native tongue I will forgive you your misconceptions and utter failure to comprehend what has been said.

Correct.

In that case, there's nothing more to be said.

[esbobes]

The time has obviously come for many of us Cheap Charlies.The Cheap Charlies who worked all their lives,and now have to live on a retirement income.It is time for the Cheap Charlies to pack up the wives and children,sell their homes,and other possessions, and get out of Thailand.There is no room here for the many retired old people who have to survive on a measly western pension.We have to make room for the easily recognizable people of substance, who are still working, and therefore throwing more money around.Thats the way it is when your old and useless.Thanks you all.

Yes you are right We need The Blair's The Bush's The Gates's The Rockerfellow's The Putin's and Even the Rothchild's in Thailand

They will have no trible spending a million Bath a month.

[steveromagnino]

why is it that any mentioning of income or personal expenditure sparks immediately controversies and accusations? is it Thailand related? having lived in Europe, the U.S. and several other countries i never had that experience.

does it really matter whether somebody spends 500k Baht or 10k a month if in both cases the "spenders" are living a content or perhaps even a happy life?

just my two satangs

So, we can infer from Dr. Naam's last statement, that he only has song satang.

better to have song satung than be mai dtem baht.

[canuckamuck]

Mobi:

A man who eats in front of someone that is starving is not wrong to eat. The man who is starving is not wrong to be hungry but he would be wrong to become jealous.

But if the man eats and then mocks the starving man, because he became jealous; the man who eats is more despised.

I quit my paying career four years ago and have been working as a volunteer since.This requires a budget but even from my budget I find ways to invest. I could walk back into my paying career any day of the week. I don’t chase money, I make contributions.

I am not approaching this from a viewpoint of envy. You made some valid points (although a bit self stroking). You started out with a dignified position, but you refused to stay out of the muck. You lost the high ground as it were. It was your lack of wit and boorish condescension I found distasteful.

Now that you have money and influence, you need to learn how stay out of a pig fight.

[Mobi]

Mobi:

A man who eats in front of someone that is starving is not wrong to eat. The man who is starving is not wrong to be hungry but he would be wrong to become jealous.

But if the man eats and then mocks the starving man, because he became jealous; the man who eats is more despised.

I quit my paying career four years ago and have been working as a volunteer since.This requires a budget but even from my budget I find ways to invest. I could walk back into my paying career any day of the week. I don't chase money, I make contributions.

I am not approaching this from a viewpoint of envy. You made some valid points (although a bit self stroking). You started out with a dignified position, but you refused to stay out of the muck. You lost the high ground as it were. It was your lack of wit and boorish condescension I found distasteful.

Now that you have money and influence, you need to learn how stay out of a pig fight.

What utter tosh

This is an internet forum - not life in some rural village. You seem to be struggling to differentiate between the real world and a bunch of internet geeks, (and yes, I am one too ), having a light hearted argument.

You take life so seriously, one wonders if you are ever happy in your volunteer existence. Maybe you secretly regret the choices you have made in life and resent others who have made different choices.

If you are so concerned about the 'pig fight' (oh, I love these expressions - are they Canadian? ), why are you getting all mucky and stuck in then?

Methinks your moralistic hogwash also contains a " lack of wit and boorish condescension"

What say you?

Maybe you would do well to consider that 'He who is without resentment will surely find peace'

So try to go in peace my friend....

[canuckamuck]

No regrets, very fortunate actually, I do as I please. I worked hard for my freedom as did you. Peace be upon your house as well.

[Felt 35]

In that case, there's nothing more to be said

Hi Mob!

I answered correct to your statement that English is not my native Language.

I did not say you were correct in your assumption that I not understand what you mean.

It’s very easy to understand where you come from and you have clearly showed to this forum how superior you believe you and the fallen empire are, even today.

I have no further comment to you or this tread.

[Mobi]

In that case, there's nothing more to be said

Hi Mob!

I answered correct to your statement that English is not my native Language.

I did not say you were correct in your assumption that I not understand what you mean.

It's very easy to understand where you come from and you have clearly showed to this forum how superior you believe you and the fallen empire are, even today.

I have no further comment to you or this tread.

In that case there is nothing more to be said

Peace be with you.

[chinthee]

This exchange reminds me of catholic church first communion. "Peace be with you...and also with you, brother."

Very spiritual.

[PeaceBlondie]

Mobi and Dr. Naam, among others, are being attacked subtly (or openly), and so far they have been gentlemen in spite of the temptations to strike back. Let's keep it civil.

[cdnvic]

I don't see anywhere where anyone has been looking down on people because of how little money they possess. I've seen warnings about future problems staying in Thailand which are quite valid, but nobody has been looked down on because of their financial status. People are being looked down on for their attitudes, but I'm certain that it's just coincidental. Mobi has done well for himself but he's hardly riding around in a gilded carriage either. The level of envy and resentment is totally out of proportion.

Are they really that resentful or is it just fear that some of what he's saying might become a reality sooner than you'd like?

[ozzydom]

The time has obviously come for many of us Cheap Charlies.The Cheap Charlies who worked all their lives,and now have to live on a retirement income.It is time for the Cheap Charlies to pack up the wives and children,sell their homes,and other possessions, and get out of Thailand.There is no room here for the many retired old people who have to survive on a measly western pension.We have to make room for the easily recognizable people of substance, who are still working, and therefore throwing more money around.Thats the way it is when your old and useless.Thanks you all.

mellow1,I feel sure that the "Powers that Be" in Thailand recognise the value of we Cheap Charlies to the Thai community and country,perhaps that is why the income requirement to support a Thai family is 40k per month while it is 65k for the single players.

I know that I do more here in family and community support from my meager pension coupled with income generated from the agricultural pursuits I have instigated than I ever did as a much moneyed selfish git in my home country.

Having lived on both sides of the fence I dont envy the maids and the Beamers or the lifestyles of those with wealth, food on the table,fish in the ponds,sun is shining,ah lifes great, maybe they even envy me.

[dog412]

as my brother once opined to me on the diminishing value of buying "very expensive" wines, as i see Thailand in the same light. fine dining is much cheaper and better value in e.u. and u.s. Getting into the 5,000-6,000 dollar range in Thailand, a month, seems to me to return a low value, compared to that which is available in other certain locations. i will, however, state that services such as maids, washers, cookers, and drivers, are of course almost unattainable at this dollar range in the west, full time. comparing, say, san francisco, with a budget of 6,000 u.s. dollars, with Bkk. i would say better value in s.f. Discounting the aforementioned "service people."

[villagefarang]

Looks to me like MOBI is having way too much fun with all this as well as hogging all the bandwidth! More power to you. You play the game well.

[Jingthing]

as my brother once opined to me on the diminishing value of buying "very expensive" wines, as i see Thailand in the same light. fine dining is much cheaper and better value in e.u. and u.s. Getting into the 5,000-6,000 dollar range in Thailand, a month, seems to me to return a low value, compared to that which is available in other certain locations. i will, however, state that services such as maids, washers, cookers, and drivers, are of course almost unattainable at this dollar range in the west, full time. comparing, say, san francisco, with a budget of 6,000 u.s. dollars, with Bkk. i would say better value in s.f. Discounting the aforementioned "service people."

6K dollars a month. Thats interesting. Yes fine dining is over the top in Bangkok compared to SF, thats for sure.

How about 6K BAHT a month? How do those two cities compare for that budget?

[thaigene2]

Some good points by prior posters and some not so good.

Use reasonable police work to get rid of undesirable ex-pats. Sounds good but unless the corruption level of the police is reduced the only ones removed from the country will be those who do not pay off.

Keeping the tourist / expat goups you have and adding more upscale ones is a solid goal. Deciding to flush out the low income ones you have and assuming they will be replaced with the same number of high income falangs. Good if it works but will it work?

The dollar is definetly going down now but will it keep going down forever? Some currency speculators are betting one way and some the other way.

I do not have an income of 300,000 baht a month like a couple of posters seem to have. I know a few who do and a lot who don't. Does this mean I should not be allowed to live in Thailand? Personally I don't need a big house with a staff of four plus 3 cars to be comfortable, although possesion of such would be nice. I remember years ago Donald Trump was having troubles and his banks put him on an allowance of 500,000 DOLLARS a month. He probably felt deprived until he got the restrictions off. If Paris Hilton had to live on a million baht a month she might kill herself. My pension is about 70,000 baht and I spend about 50,000 of it. I make no trouble for Thailand and there sure are a whole lot of people like me here. Do the rif raff like me have to leave to make room for our betters?

There seems to be a large snob attitude on the board as to Pattaya. I live here because it is close to Bangkok but living expenses are a lot cheaper. Few of the expats living here are in the bars 7 days a week getting drunk and making fools of themselves. Two week tourists yes, but there are a lot of places in Europe where they do the same thing.

I like it here. If Thailand ever decides I should go give me six hours to pack up and I can be at the airport heading for somewhere that does want me.

I like your post. When I originally posted this, it was really aimed at people like yourself. Good, upstanding citizens who just don't have the higher incomes. I think it's a real shame if people like you get pushed out by the visa restrictions. There really should be some other process other than just income as a determination.

Yes I agree 100% with all of the above from both of you.

rogercw makes a point (inadvertently) about property too. The ever-changing visa rules means buying a place here is pure folly unless you are (again) rich and this is just part of your disposable income.

Few others of us - who aren't paupers it must be said - would part with 100,000 - 400,000 USD for a condo (in CASH remember - no Thai baht loans to farangs). Yes I know rich people the world over have many properties the world over - simply to sleep in a few weeks per year. But realistically, how many of those people are there - how many really exist? And how sustainable is that? As sustainable as believing US Consumers will keep spending the money they NO LONGER have forever? That interest rates will stay low forever?

This place we call 'home' for now is really turning into a con-game (maybe it always was?).

[dog412]

as my brother once opined to me on the diminishing value of buying "very expensive" wines, as i see Thailand in the same light. fine dining is much cheaper and better value in e.u. and u.s. Getting into the 5,000-6,000 dollar range in Thailand, a month, seems to me to return a low value, compared to that which is available in other certain locations. i will, however, state that services such as maids, washers, cookers, and drivers, are of course almost unattainable at this dollar range in the west, full time. comparing, say, san francisco, with a budget of 6,000 u.s. dollars, with Bkk. i would say better value in s.f. Discounting the aforementioned "service people."

6K dollars a month. Thats interesting. Yes fine dining is over the top in Bangkok compared to SF, thats for sure.

How about 6K BAHT a month? How do those two cities compare for that budget?

not sure what what you're asking. minimum wage is higher in s.f. than fed mandated. bkk. is a massing sprawling mega-city, s.f. a limited area. i was speaking about value, and my opinion that at a certain level a better value. as a semi-budgeted individual, and attempting minimalist, may i imply that you are referring to the wages earned by those that are the actual labor used service the populace of Thailand? if so, i agree.

[Jingthing]

as my brother once opined to me on the diminishing value of buying "very expensive" wines, as i see Thailand in the same light. fine dining is much cheaper and better value in e.u. and u.s. Getting into the 5,000-6,000 dollar range in Thailand, a month, seems to me to return a low value, compared to that which is available in other certain locations. i will, however, state that services such as maids, washers, cookers, and drivers, are of course almost unattainable at this dollar range in the west, full time. comparing, say, san francisco, with a budget of 6,000 u.s. dollars, with Bkk. i would say better value in s.f. Discounting the aforementioned "service people."

6K dollars a month. Thats interesting. Yes fine dining is over the top in Bangkok compared to SF, thats for sure.

How about 6K BAHT a month? How do those two cities compare for that budget?

not sure what what you're asking. minimum wage is higher in s.f. than fed mandated. bkk. is a massing sprawling mega-city, s.f. a limited area. i was speaking about value, and my opinion that at a certain level a better value. as a semi-budgeted individual, and attempting minimalist, may i imply that you are referring to the wages earned by those that are the actual labor used service the populace of Thailand? if so, i agree.

Interesting response.

I posit this theory.

The vast majority of farang expats in Thailand spend more than 6K baht a month.

The vast majority of farang expats in Thailand spend less than 6K US dollars a month.

Statistically, the majority are CLOSER to the 6K baht than the 6K dollars!

[Eff1n2ret]

"when I recently went there and ordered a drink for myself and my wife, I was the only one who was allowed to have a check bin pot and not pay in advance."

If I took my wife to a squithole like that, I wouldn't be surprised if she called me a Cheap Charlie.

Christ, what a bighead

[opebo]

Some posted budgets above.. I like doing that.

My budget when I lived in Pattaya on money from the US -

Rent - 5,000

Util - 1,000

Girls - 40,000

Food - 9,000

misc - 3,000

Bike - 2,000

TOTAL - 60,000/month

Now working upcountry:

Rent - 2,800

Util - 1,000

Girls - 10,000 (I can't get away so often and the options here are only half a dozen.. kind of defeats the purpose of being in Thailand, but still, better than The Bad Place).

Food - 6,000

Misc - 3,000

Bike - 1,900

TOtal - 24,700/month

[waldpyk]

mobi you said : "..it dependss on what you want out of life etc "

no , it depends on what you have ,

and hopefully what you have , is enough for what you need

[bendix]

My budget per month

Rent: 60,000 (soon to be zero cos I've bought a place, no finance)

Power: 3,500

internet: 700

water: 1,200

ubc: 1,500

groceries: 10,000

going out/

treats/

restaurants: 30,000

miscellanous: 20,000

Total 126,900

various things like medical insurances, mobile phone costs etc are covered by my employers.

Once I move to my new house, my expenditure will half but I'll be buying two cars then so transport costs will increase

I can't think of anything else. I usually save much more than I spend.

Edited July 18, 2007 by bendix

[Mid]

Are Expats An Endangered Species?, Has anyone ever seen THIS MUCH pessimism b4?

welcome to the interweb

[bendix]

Let's go back to the original post.

Is there that much pessimism? I'm certainly not pessimistic about the future, either personally or about Thailand. If I was, I certainly would exercise my option to move on. I see a great future in Thailand, and I'm more than happy to stay.

[Mid]

on that point , we've never had this freedom of info and speed before ......................