'Next hours will be decisive': 45,000 police deployed as unrest spreads across France

[RayC]

8 hours ago, Hanaguma said:

Not always, but it is a possibility. That might make the NEXT guy think twice before trying to evade law enforcement. FAFO

I have no plans to commit a terrorist act but, if I were to do so, I think that leading up to the event I'd keep a low profile. A 17-year old ethnic Algerian driving a Merc with foreign number plates is hardly low profile.

 

In any event, in the interests of consistency you will no doubt agree that it's understandable that a white shoplifter running down the street runs the risk of being shot by police in case they are a neo-Nazi intent of overthrowing the elected government. Won't always be the case but - by your line of argument - it must be a possibility.

[RayC]

3 hours ago, BenStark said:

YES

 

People avoid arrest for a reason.

 

As a policeman you don't take chances.

How was a driver fleeing the scene presenting a threat to this police officer's welfare?

 

No matter how petty the crime/ misdemeanor the perpetrator should accept that they run the risk of being shot?

[RayC]

6 hours ago, JonnyF said:

What could possibly have changed ?

 

PS Peckham was already gone by 98.

Peckham - and most of S/SE London - has been gentrified and, by and large, is now an ok place. It was still a bit of a <deleted>hole in the '90s, but even then that was an improvement on the '70s and '80s 

[hotchilli]

12 hours ago, AhFarangJa said:

So was England..............

Agreed... 

[hotchilli]

12 hours ago, Jiggo said:

So was London New York and Peckham 

I was a Hampshire lad.

[RayC]

6 hours ago, 3NUMBAS said:

17 yr old at 8 in the morning joy riding with no documents

 

5 hours ago, herfiehandbag said:

It just slipped out ( his mother complained) that he had been stopped numerous times over the last two years. So he had been driving since he was 15!. This in a country where the legal age for driving is 18!

 

Let's stick my neck out - nice car, driving without a licence, drug dealer/courier?

So therefore he deserves to die?

[herfiehandbag]

2 hours ago, RayC said:

 

So therefore he deserves to die?

I didn't say that, did I?

 

It does however put the initial police action - stopping the car - in, at least some context.

 

France has an essentially effective judicial system which will hold, is holding, those who killed this boy to account. That is true.

 

It also has a large and racially motivated urban population of young ( predominantly immigrant, notionally Muslim) young men,  who are prepared to riot on this scale. That is true.

 

That community is heavily involved in crime, racketeering and drug distribution. That also is true.

Edited July 1, 2023 by herfiehandbag

[superal]

59 minutes ago, herfiehandbag said:

I didn't say that, did I?

 

It does however put the initial police action - stopping the car - in, at least some context.

 

France has an essentially effective judicial system which will hold, is holding, those who killed this boy to account. That is true.

 

It also has a large and racially motivated urban population of young ( predominantly immigrant, notionally Muslim) young men,  who are prepared to riot on this scale. That is true.

 

That community is heavily involved in crime, racketeering and drug distribution. That also is true.

The young man had disregard for the law and probably had a reason to flea from the police but shooting a gun was not needed . The resultant  riots carried out by mostly Muslim immigrants were a prelude to looting and massive damaging of vehicles and buildings . 

Many global governments are encouraging immigration to improve their economies and business profits without a concern on racial integration . It clearly does not work . Is it a wonder that the indigenous nationals get outraged when they see the government hand outs given to immigrants and the locals are left to their own means ? Choosing my words carefully on this article but many UK nationals are emigrating to countries with fewer problems . Same goes to other European folks . The French / German and other European countries have my sympathies because of the amount of en mass immigration and the behaviour of the latter .

[JonnyF]

5 hours ago, RayC said:

Peckham - and most of S/SE London - has been gentrified and, by and large, is now an ok place. It was still a bit of a <deleted>hole in the '90s, but even then that was an improvement on the '70s and '80s 

Yeah its lovely now.

 

https://www.mylondon.news/news/south-london-news/man-dies-after-nunhead-stabbing-27201619

[Pink Mist]

Trolling, bickering and baiting posts have been removed 

[Chomper Higgot]

6 hours ago, herfiehandbag said:

I didn't say that, did I?

 

It does however put the initial police action - stopping the car - in, at least some context.

 

France has an essentially effective judicial system which will hold, is holding, those who killed this boy to account. That is true.

 

It also has a large and racially motivated urban population of young ( predominantly immigrant, notionally Muslim) young men,  who are prepared to riot on this scale. That is true.

 

That community is heavily involved in crime, racketeering and drug distribution. That also is true.

What’s a ‘racially motivated population’?

 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

8 hours ago, herfiehandbag said:

That community is heavily involved in crime, racketeering and drug distribution. That also is true.

‘The Community’, what all the community? 
 

Or is that one of those gross pejorative generalizations that some folk have a habit of resorting to?

[Stocky]

The French are revolting, so what's new?

[Gecko123]

I've been a Francophile for many years, have studied the language on and off throughout my life, and have tried to get a handle on what can rightfully be called "France's race problem," as this is a hot button issue for me in terms of France's attractiveness as a place to visit and live. Here's what I've been able to piece together over the years.

 

Following WWII France enacted laws which prohibited the government from keeping track of people based on race and religion. These laws seem to have inhibited analysis of what is really going on in underprivileged neighborhoods. 

 

The pattern of underprivileged neighborhoods being located in outer bands surrounding cities creates serious isolation of these neighborhoods and seems to foster an "out of sight, out of mind" mentality about ignoring or giving lip-service to the needs of these underprivileged neighborhoods. Housing, employment, educational, not to mention social discrimination seems to be very common, and there seems to be a huge class divide between the elite inner cities and the surrounding regions.

 

As a sidebar, this pattern of geographic racial and class segregation appears to be accelerating in America as well. There have always been good and bad neighborhoods, but in years past, these were found in relative proximity to one another, and there was still opportunities for interaction between different groups. Now, entire areas (for example the SF peninsula) and other West Coast cities have such high property values and taxes that they've become highly segregated, both racially and in terms of class. I see the solution to this problem as being more progressive taxes on the rich and higher estate taxes to eliminate these inequities as well as stopping corporations and hedge funds from buying up single family housing which is a direct cause of America's housing affordability crisis.

 

Underlying the social tensions in France are fears about terrorism, immigration and criminality, which helps explain the French police's reputation for repressive policing aimed at racial minorities. But it's important to recognize that housing, employment, educational opportunity and social discrimination help feed terrorism recruitment and criminality.

 

The widespread nature of the riots across France says a lot about the scope of underlying social tensions. When I watched images of hundreds of young physically fit mostly male rioters racing down streets, all I could think of was what a resource that energy could be if it was harnessed and put to productive use.

 

It's no doubt a complex social problem which is going to take a lot of work to resolve. But the French politicians, starting with Macron, have to take the first step and admit there is a problem. His failure so far to acknowledge that there is any systemic problem with the policing, really has struck me as incredibly tone deaf or out-of-touch with the on the ground reality.

 

This DW report, particularly the analysis of Paul Moreira which starts at 6:40, is probably the best commentary about the underlying causes of the French riots that I've come across so far.

 

 

Edit: To all the people speculating about whether the kid was a drug dealer or otherwise up to no good, it's my understanding that he was stopped for driving in a bus lane.

Edited July 2, 2023 by Gecko123

[RayC]

9 hours ago, herfiehandbag said:

I didn't say that, did I?

Not directly, no, but then what was the point of your post?

 

9 hours ago, herfiehandbag said:

 

It does however put the initial police action - stopping the car - in, at least some context.

Perhaps the police were justified in stopping the car but, so far, no evidence has been presented that justified killing the suspect. 

 

9 hours ago, herfiehandbag said:

France has an essentially effective judicial system which will hold, is holding, those who killed this boy to account. That is true.

Let's hope so.

 

9 hours ago, herfiehandbag said:

 

It also has a large and racially motivated urban population of young ( predominantly immigrant, notionally Muslim) young men,  who are prepared to riot on this scale. That is true.

The implication being what?

 

It is clearly undeniable that some non-white young French men from urban areas are prepared to riot: The same is true of white, rural, middle-aged French men (The 'Gilet Jaune' demonstrations are an example of this).

 

9 hours ago, herfiehandbag said:

 

That community is heavily involved in crime, racketeering and drug distribution. That also is true.

All the community or just a relatively small minority?

[onthedarkside]

Troll post removed

[metisdead]

Some off topic posts and replies about the UK have been removed.

[tgw]

7 hours ago, Gecko123 said:

Edit: To all the people speculating about whether the kid was a drug dealer or otherwise up to no good, it's my understanding that he was stopped for driving in a bus lane.

the "kid" technically had no criminal record, but he had already been arrested several times for similar behaviour, refusing to obey police orders, driving without a permit, drugs,  fencing stolen goods, using fake license plates, driving without insurance, and consuming and selling drugs. there are a total of 15 records in his police record.

just a handful of days before his death, he was summoned by a judge to set a first court date in september.

so the fact that Nahel has no criminal record is due to him dying before he could be found guilty in court.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Nahel_Merzouk

Edited July 2, 2023 by tgw

[sharksy]

On 7/1/2023 at 10:01 PM, RayC said:

 

So therefore he deserves to die?

Before he runs over other innocent people? Yes - That's the chance you take if you don't stop for police

[RayC]

5 minutes ago, sharksy said:

Before he runs over other innocent people? Yes - That's the chance you take if you don't stop for police

Was there any indication that the boy would run over innocent people? 

 

Anyone driving erratically can be seen as a potential danger to pedestrians. Is it ok for the police to shoot them?

[sharksy]

2 minutes ago, RayC said:

Was there any indication that the boy would run over innocent people? 

 

Anyone driving erratically can be seen as a potential danger to pedestrians. Is it ok for the police to shoot them?

Was there any indication that the police officer actually intended to kill the driver?

[Bkk Brian]

Interesting take from an alleged passenger in the vehicle. The car was automatic and when the second police officer stuck the driver with the butt of the gun, his foot came off the brake, that's why the car went forward, the officer then shot him causing the car to crash.

 

 

[Gecko123]

8 hours ago, tgw said:

the "kid" technically had no criminal record, but he had already been arrested several times for similar behaviour, refusing to obey police orders, driving without a permit, drugs,  fencing stolen goods, using fake license plates, driving without insurance, and consuming and selling drugs. there are a total of 15 records in his police record.

just a handful of days before his death, he was summoned by a judge to set a first court date in september.

so the fact that Nahel has no criminal record is due to him dying before he could be found guilty in court.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Nahel_Merzouk

The teenage boy's past brushes with the law - which were likely unknown to the officer at the time of the shooting - are totally irrelevant to whether the use of deadly force was justified in this case. You seem to be arguing that his past brushes with the law made him a menace to society, likely to kill people if he escaped from the traffic stop, and therefore justified his shooting.

 

Are you aware that the officer first claimed that he fired because his life was in danger (presumably by being run over) and when the video emerged, he amended his story saying that he was aiming for his lower extremities but the car bumped his arm causing the motorist to be shot in the chest. Whether either of these justifications for the shooting will be substantiated remains to be seen, but, initially, the video doesn't appear to corroborate the officer's version of events. 

 

https://www.policinglaw.info/country/france

 

 

Edited July 3, 2023 by Gecko123

[tgw]

31 minutes ago, Gecko123 said:

The teenage boy's past brushes with the law - which were likely unknown to the officer at the time of the shooting - are totally irrelevant to whether the use of deadly force was justified in this case. You seem to be arguing that his past brushes with the law made him a menace to society, likely to kill people if he escaped from the traffic stop, and therefore justified his shooting.

 

Are you aware that the officer first claimed that he fired because his life was in danger (presumably by being run over) and when the video emerged, he amended his story saying that he was aiming for his lower extremities but the car bumped his arm causing the motorist to be shot in the chest. Whether either of these justifications for the shooting will be substantiated remains to be seen, but, initially, the video doesn't appear to corroborate the officer's version of events. 

 

https://www.policinglaw.info/country/france

the deceased's history with police is a fact that stays irrelevant for as long as nobody starts describing him as an "innocent victim" and uses his "empty criminal record" for propaganda purposes.
unfortunately, that's not how the media work. different media will either paint the deceased as being an angel and/or put the character of every involved person on trial, so it's quite natural to present all facts.

the deceased's background however, explains his risky behaviour at the traffic stop after his joyride, during which, according to police, he endangered at least one pedestrian and one cyclist.

 

your post reads as if you think I am on the officers' side, which is not the case.
of course nobody should die in a traffic stop.

 

there are several videos of the shooting from at least two angles.

another argument brought forward by the cops is that they were their backs against a wall, 40cm away, so if the driver had turned his wheels to the left and accelerated, he could have killed the shooter.

 

I don't know if this justification is valid or not. I guess that's one case where a reenactment could help to understand what happened.

 

New facts pending, my opinion so far is that the cops put themselves in a hazardous position to stop the vehicle.

I am surprised that pointing a weapon at the driver is standard procedure.

These guys are Police, I think the Gendarmerie would have acted differently, starting with how they would position themselves around the vehicle.

beyond the questionable procedure, once joyrider and cop were both in place at their positions just before the shot, it just took yet another silly action by the driver to trigger the tragic end.

Edited July 3, 2023 by tgw

[Berkshire]

On 7/1/2023 at 8:57 PM, JonnyF said:

Good to see this finally reaching the MSM. They delayed reporting on it as long as they could 

 

Good luck France. Diversity is their strength. I'm sure Macron will step up to the plate and own/fix this mess.

 

 

CNN has been covering this story from the beginning.  It must be a real burden for you thinking every story is a left wing conspiracy.   

[superal]

18 hours ago, Gecko123 said:

I've been a Francophile for many years, have studied the language on and off throughout my life, and have tried to get a handle on what can rightfully be called "France's race problem," as this is a hot button issue for me in terms of France's attractiveness as a place to visit and live. Here's what I've been able to piece together over the years.

 

Following WWII France enacted laws which prohibited the government from keeping track of people based on race and religion. These laws seem to have inhibited analysis of what is really going on in underprivileged neighborhoods. 

 

The pattern of underprivileged neighborhoods being located in outer bands surrounding cities creates serious isolation of these neighborhoods and seems to foster an "out of sight, out of mind" mentality about ignoring or giving lip-service to the needs of these underprivileged neighborhoods. Housing, employment, educational, not to mention social discrimination seems to be very common, and there seems to be a huge class divide between the elite inner cities and the surrounding regions.

 

As a sidebar, this pattern of geographic racial and class segregation appears to be accelerating in America as well. There have always been good and bad neighborhoods, but in years past, these were found in relative proximity to one another, and there was still opportunities for interaction between different groups. Now, entire areas (for example the SF peninsula) and other West Coast cities have such high property values and taxes that they've become highly segregated, both racially and in terms of class. I see the solution to this problem as being more progressive taxes on the rich and higher estate taxes to eliminate these inequities as well as stopping corporations and hedge funds from buying up single family housing which is a direct cause of America's housing affordability crisis.

 

Underlying the social tensions in France are fears about terrorism, immigration and criminality, which helps explain the French police's reputation for repressive policing aimed at racial minorities. But it's important to recognize that housing, employment, educational opportunity and social discrimination help feed terrorism recruitment and criminality.

 

The widespread nature of the riots across France says a lot about the scope of underlying social tensions. When I watched images of hundreds of young physically fit mostly male rioters racing down streets, all I could think of was what a resource that energy could be if it was harnessed and put to productive use.

 

It's no doubt a complex social problem which is going to take a lot of work to resolve. But the French politicians, starting with Macron, have to take the first step and admit there is a problem. His failure so far to acknowledge that there is any systemic problem with the policing, really has struck me as incredibly tone deaf or out-of-touch with the on the ground reality.

 

This DW report, particularly the analysis of Paul Moreira which starts at 6:40, is probably the best commentary about the underlying causes of the French riots that I've come across so far.

 

 

Edit: To all the people speculating about whether the kid was a drug dealer or otherwise up to no good, it's my understanding that he was stopped for driving in a bus lane.

Thanks for your slant on the French problems and as you pointed out , it is also seen in the states . However it is a global problem where integration does not happen or does not work for various reasons . 1/ Certain nationalities like to stay together as a community i.e. birds of a feather flock together and would not feel comfortable living with unknown peoples . 

2/ Most immigrants come from poor countries and will have low education levels which will hamper their employment opportunities , leading to low paid jobs which in turn forces them to live in low cost housing . Often seeking support and benefits from governments which can cause resentment from the indigenous nationals . 

3/ Without prejudice , many immigrants will have been exposed to a high level of crime and that has become an accepted way of life to them .  

4/ Finally sensitive issues that are religions , beliefs , customs and cultures , most of which do not blend into their new chosen country .

The French problem is occurring throughout western countries where there are not enough workers to fill vacancies and the governments are being pressed by big businesses to bring in emigrants to fill vacancies and increase their company profits . In addition the new immigrants income taxes will help to support badly managed , waning pension funds . 

[Yellowtail]

1 hour ago, Berkshire said:

CNN has been covering this story from the beginning.  It must be a real burden for you thinking every story is a left wing conspiracy.   

CNN is left wing? 

[Berkshire]

55 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

CNN is left wing? 

He was talking about MSM of which CNN certainly is.  What the heck are you talking about?

[Yellowtail]

50 minutes ago, Berkshire said:

He was talking about MSM of which CNN certainly is.  What the heck are you talking about?

I thought he implied that the "leftist media" was not reporting on it, to which (I think) you then claimed CNN was covering it. To me, your response implied you believed that CNN was left-biased, which surprised me, because I always assumed they were about as unbiased as possible. 

[candide]

3 hours ago, superal said:

Thanks for your slant on the French problems and as you pointed out , it is also seen in the states . However it is a global problem where integration does not happen or does not work for various reasons . 1/ Certain nationalities like to stay together as a community i.e. birds of a feather flock together and would not feel comfortable living with unknown peoples . 

2/ Most immigrants come from poor countries and will have low education levels which will hamper their employment opportunities , leading to low paid jobs which in turn forces them to live in low cost housing . Often seeking support and benefits from governments which can cause resentment from the indigenous nationals . 

3/ Without prejudice , many immigrants will have been exposed to a high level of crime and that has become an accepted way of life to them .  

4/ Finally sensitive issues that are religions , beliefs , customs and cultures , most of which do not blend into their new chosen country .

The French problem is occurring throughout western countries where there are not enough workers to fill vacancies and the governments are being pressed by big businesses to bring in emigrants to fill vacancies and increase their company profits . In addition the new immigrants income taxes will help to support badly managed , waning pension funds . 

While most of them are children of immigrants, mainly from Northern Africa, it is mainly based on a kind of solidarity between people living in what would be called 'projects' in the U.S.