Nato summit: Allies refuse to give Ukraine timeframe on joining

[Kwasaki]

1 minute ago, vandeventer said:

Try, right after Ukraine defeats Russia.

Get real Ukraine will never defeat Russia even if Putin goes IMHO.

 

It needs a Russian withdrawal or a driving out of Russian invaders in Ukraine so nothing changed.

[vandeventer]

59 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

Get real Ukraine will never defeat Russia even if Putin goes IMHO.

 

It needs a Russian withdrawal or a driving out of Russian invaders in Ukraine so nothing changed.

It was a honest joke.

[heybruce]

1 hour ago, Kwasaki said:

The other sources can be just someone's opinion or others giving opinion on the radio or tv on what they think is going on behind the scenes, I don't see that as unreasonable.

 

When all pertinent facts show that an opinion is wrong, then it is not an opinion it is a fantasy.  Stating that any nation other than Russia started the war in Ukraine is a fantasy. 

[Kwasaki]

56 minutes ago, heybruce said:

When all pertinent facts show that an opinion is wrong, then it is not an opinion it is a fantasy.  Stating that any nation other than Russia started the war in Ukraine is a fantasy. 

Depends on the wider picture and the perspectives of past history how some people base opinions.

 

Russia started a special operation is a fact which has turned into a proxy war is an opinion.

[placeholder]

14 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

Depends on the wider picture and the perspectives of past history how some people base opinions.

 

Russia started a special operation is a fact which has turned into a proxy war is an opinion.

If I understand this garbled sentence accurately, you're claiming that it's a fact that this is a special operation but not a war? Or are you claiming that it's a special operation that turned into a war but not necessarily a proxy war?

[heybruce]

38 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

Depends on the wider picture and the perspectives of past history how some people base opinions.

 

Russia started a special operation is a fact which has turned into a proxy war is an opinion.

war

1 of 4

noun

ˈwȯr 

 

 

often attributive

Synonyms of war

 

 

1

a(1)

: a state of usually open and declared armed hostile conflict between states or nations

(2)

: a period of such armed conflict

(3)

: state of war

b

: the art or science of warfare

c(1)

obsolete : weapons and equipment for war

(2)

archaic : soldiers armed and equipped for war

 

2

a

: a state of hostility, conflict, or antagonism

b

: a struggle or competition between opposing forces or for a particular end

a class war

 

a war against disease

 

c

: variance, odds sense 2      https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/war

 

Please explain how this "special military operation" does not satisfy the definition of "war".

 

Regarding the "proxy war" nonsense:

 

"One reason the “proxy war” doesn’t apply here is the core U.S. objective is helping Ukraine achieve a goal it set for itself: To fend off the expanded Russian invasion."  https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/05/03/why-ukraine-isnt-proxy-war-yet/

 

The US didn't start the war, tried to prevent it from starting, and seems unclear on how it should end other than with Ukraine's survival as a nation.  That doesn't strike me as a proxy war.

Edited July 13, 2023 by heybruce

[placeholder]

2 minutes ago, heybruce said:

war

1 of 4

noun

ˈwȯr 

 

 

often attributive

Synonyms of war

 

 

1

a(1)

: a state of usually open and declared armed hostile conflict between states or nations

(2)

: a period of such armed conflict

(3)

: state of war

b

: the art or science of warfare

c(1)

obsolete : weapons and equipment for war

(2)

archaic : soldiers armed and equipped for war

 

2

a

: a state of hostility, conflict, or antagonism

b

: a struggle or competition between opposing forces or for a particular end

a class war

 

a war against disease

 

c

: variance, odds sense 2      https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/war

 

Please explain how this "special military operation" does not satisfy the definition of "war".

 

Regarding the "proxy war" nonsense:

 

"One reason the “proxy war” doesn’t apply here is the core U.S. objective is helping Ukraine achieve a goal it set for itself: To fend off the expanded Russian invasion."  https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/05/03/why-ukraine-isnt-proxy-war-yet/

 

The US didn't start the war, tried to prevent it from starting, and seems unclear on how it should end other than with Ukraine's survival as a nation.  That doesn't strike me as a proxy war.

I'm not sure what he meant by his comments. But those who claim that this is a proxy war and that the Ukrainians are pawns clearly have a disdainful attitude towards the Ukrainians. 

[Kwasaki]

1 hour ago, placeholder said:

If I understand this garbled sentence accurately, you're claiming that it's a fact that this is a special operation but not a war? Or are you claiming that it's a special operation that turned into a war but not necessarily a proxy war?

It is a fact to Putin and the rest is only what I hear other people saying on media outlets.

 

What you say it is not necessarily what other people think and I'm not claiming anything. 

[Kwasaki]

53 minutes ago, heybruce said:

war

1 of 4

noun

ˈwȯr 

 

 

often attributive

Synonyms of war

 

 

1

a(1)

: a state of usually open and declared armed hostile conflict between states or nations

(2)

: a period of such armed conflict

(3)

: state of war

b

: the art or science of warfare

c(1)

obsolete : weapons and equipment for war

(2)

archaic : soldiers armed and equipped for war

 

2

a

: a state of hostility, conflict, or antagonism

b

: a struggle or competition between opposing forces or for a particular end

a class war

 

a war against disease

 

c

: variance, odds sense 2      https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/war

 

Please explain how this "special military operation" does not satisfy the definition of "war".

 

Regarding the "proxy war" nonsense:

 

"One reason the “proxy war” doesn’t apply here is the core U.S. objective is helping Ukraine achieve a goal it set for itself: To fend off the expanded Russian invasion."  https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/05/03/why-ukraine-isnt-proxy-war-yet/

 

The US didn't start the war, tried to prevent it from starting, and seems unclear on how it should end other than with Ukraine's survival as a nation.  That doesn't strike me as a proxy war.

Well didn't expect you to agree with other people's opinions.

[heybruce]

1 hour ago, Kwasaki said:

Well didn't expect you to agree with other people's opinions.

You called the "special operation" a fact.  The fact is that an invasion with the intent to seize a country's capitol and topple the government is a war.

 

You also failed to explain how support for Ukraine with the only stated goal being the survival of the nation is a proxy war.  That makes your opinion fact free.

[Kwasaki]

37 minutes ago, heybruce said:

You called the "special operation" a fact.  The fact is that an invasion with the intent to seize a country's capitol and topple the government is a war.

 

You also failed to explain how support for Ukraine with the only stated goal being the survival of the nation is a proxy war.  That makes your opinion fact free.

I didn't call it it a special operation I was just stating facts that Putin thinks is it is.

Without NATO support, Ukraine wouldn't survive hence the proxy war comments by others.

[ozimoron]

7 hours ago, Kwasaki said:

Not F16's flown like Topgun.

 

Jokes aside I hear from experts on radio that airpower will give the ground offensive better support, frankly myself I would have no idea.

I don't either but I read an article which explained there weren't many russian fighter jets in the air over ukraine because they were susceptible to small missiles.

[heybruce]

10 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

I didn't call it it a special operation I was just stating facts that Putin thinks is it is.

Without NATO support, Ukraine wouldn't survive hence the proxy war comments by others.

In that case the "others" don't know what a proxy war is. 

[Kwasaki]

4 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

I don't either but I read an article which explained there weren't many russian fighter jets in the air over ukraine because they were susceptible to small missiles.

Yes I believe supplied by UK. ????

 

I also hear what Bojo did suppyling anti tank munitions right at the beginning of the Invasion made a big difference to Ukrainians defence.

[Kwasaki]

2 minutes ago, heybruce said:

In that case the "others" don't know what a proxy war is. 

Well there's the problem with bucket mouth talk what your understanding of what a proxy war is obviously can be very different from what other people think.

[ozimoron]

7 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

Well there's the problem with bucket mouth talk what your understanding of what a proxy war is obviously can be very different from what other people think.

You're understandign of a proxy war is completely at odds with what most people think. Apart from mercenaries and volunteers, the only combatants in the Ukraine are Ukrainians. Perhaps you are thinking of the Russian allies helping it as a justification for your claim?

[Kwasaki]

2 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

You're understandign of a proxy war is completely at odds with what most people think. Apart from mercenaries and volunteers, the only combatants in the Ukraine are Ukrainians. Perhaps you are thinking of the Russian allies helping it as a justification for your claim?

I haven't said it's a proxy war there are so many different people commenting on what it is.

Frankly I couldn't care less apart from find ways to stop the war and all wars in the world today.

[ozimoron]

3 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

I haven't said it's a proxy war there are so many different people commenting on what it is.

Frankly I couldn't care less apart from find ways to stop the war and all wars in the world today.

One doesn't need to look far to find the easiest way to stop this war. Unfortunately the only option appears to be the hard way. Putin doesn't have a claim toi any part of Ukraine that needs to be negotiated.

Edited July 13, 2023 by ozimoron

[Kwasaki]

1 minute ago, ozimoron said:

One doesn't need to look far to find the easiest way to stop this war. Unfortunately the only option appears to be the hard way.

Yeah I wish, I fantasise why is it that Mission impossible can get into the Kemlin but uk special can't get into take out Putin and all his cronies. 

[ozimoron]

2 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

Yeah I wish, I fantasise why is it that Mission impossible can get into the Kemlin but uk special can't get into take out Putin and all his cronies. 

A fish rots from the head. It is Russians who will end this war and only by removing Putin.

[Kwasaki]

2 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

A fish rots from the head. It is Russians who will end this war and only by removing Putin.

100% we agree on something.

Hope it happens quickly. 

[placeholder]

2 hours ago, Kwasaki said:

It is a fact to Putin and the rest is only what I hear other people saying on media outlets.

 

What you say it is not necessarily what other people think and I'm not claiming anything. 

So, you've reached whatever age you're and apparently either you have never used the word "war" about a conflict between nations or you've used it but didn't know what it meant? It functioned as a kind of X for you?

It is to laugh.

[heybruce]

9 hours ago, Kwasaki said:

Well there's the problem with bucket mouth talk what your understanding of what a proxy war is obviously can be very different from what other people think.

I go by definitions:

 

proxy war

noun [ C ]

 

uk

 

/ˈprɒk.si ˌwɔːr/ us

 

/ˈprɑːk.si ˌwɔːr/

 

Add to word list

a war fought between groups or smaller countries that each represent the interests of other larger powers, and may have help and support from these:

The new nuclear superpowers fought their first proxy war for global supremacy in the Asian heartland of Korea.  https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/proxy-war

 

Russia, a large country, invaded Ukraine, a small country.  That does not fit the definition of a proxy war.

 

People who call this a proxy war are trying to disguise the fact that this is a war of conquest by Russia in an attempt to recreate the Soviet empire or something similar.

 

This is a war of empire, and it's going badly for the would be empirical power.  It's not a proxy war.

[Kwasaki]

6 hours ago, heybruce said:

I go by definitions:

 

proxy war

noun [ C ]

 

uk

 

/ˈprɒk.si ˌwɔːr/ us

 

/ˈprɑːk.si ˌwɔːr/

 

Add to word list

a war fought between groups or smaller countries that each represent the interests of other larger powers, and may have help and support from these:

The new nuclear superpowers fought their first proxy war for global supremacy in the Asian heartland of Korea.  https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/proxy-war

 

Russia, a large country, invaded Ukraine, a small country.  That does not fit the definition of a proxy war.

 

People who call this a proxy war are trying to disguise the fact that this is a war of conquest by Russia in an attempt to recreate the Soviet empire or something similar.

 

This is a war of empire, and it's going badly for the would be empirical power.  It's not a proxy war.

Heres another meaning which would lead people into thinking it is.

 

A proxy war occurs when a major power instigates or plays a major role in supporting and directing a party to a conflict but does only a small portion of the actual fighting itself.

[heybruce]

36 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

Heres another meaning which would lead people into thinking it is.

 

A proxy war occurs when a major power instigates or plays a major role in supporting and directing a party to a conflict but does only a small portion of the actual fighting itself.

It's a stretch to say that the US is directing Ukraine to fight for its survival.  But it's kind of amusing to think that some people believe the US is fighting a proxy war against Russian imperialism.

[Kwasaki]

2 minutes ago, heybruce said:

It's a stretch to say that the US is directing Ukraine to fight for its survival.  But it's kind of amusing to think that some people believe the US is fighting a proxy war against Russian imperialism.

Yeah as the war drags on I hear a lot more comments not so much in support.

There was stupid uk mp IMO saying Zelenskey should be more thankful, what a plonker.

 

[placeholder]

30 minutes ago, heybruce said:

It's a stretch to say that the US is directing Ukraine to fight for its survival.  But it's kind of amusing to think that some people believe the US is fighting a proxy war against Russian imperialism.

The thing about claims like that this is a proxy war is that short of a smoking gun, it really can't be proved or disproved. And it's utterly irrelevant. It could just as easily and improvably be argued that Ukraine is exploiting the United States' hostility to Russia to finance and supply its defense. The germane issue is whether or not the Ukrainians want the aid from the US and other nations. There is plenty of evidence to support the fact that overwhelmingly they do.

Edited July 14, 2023 by placeholder