Is there a realistic route to PR without being employed in Thailand?

[DD25]

  On 7/15/2023 at 12:31 PM, Maestro said:

There is no quota for Permanent Residence (PR). PR holders are non-quota immigrants.

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Well that's good news, although the site that Pib linked to above (https://www.immigration.go.th/en/?page_id=1744) says it's 100 people per country per year. Out of date maybe (but if so, is the rest of it also out of date?)

[DD25]

It looks like you need 3 continuous years on an O visa, but can you change the reason for extension e.g. 1 year education (that's an O visa, right?) 2 years visit spouse, then apply?

[Pib]

  On 7/15/2023 at 11:57 AM, Mike Teavee said:

Apologies if this is a stupid question (have never considered getting married so have never considered it before) but if I were to marry my long term (4.5 years) Thai girlfriend could I apply for PR without ever having worked here ?
 

 

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https://www.immigration.go.th/en/?page_id=1744

Go to above immigration webpage, click Paragraph 3 Required Documents which will pull up a list of documents required in the situation you talk about....you will see Thailand employment and Thai income tax docs are a  requirement.  The situation you ask about will be on page 3 of the 4 page doc.

 

[Lorry]

  On 7/15/2023 at 1:57 AM, Pib said:

 

https://www.immigration.go.th/en/?page_id=1744

 

Clicking on the link of Paragraph 1 at above Immigration website will download an English language doc detailing the various ways to qualify for a PR like employment, relationship with a Thai, etc.,  While there are ways to qualify via investment/humanitarian/Thai relationship reasons, generally it's going to require having being currently employed in Thailand for at least 3 consecutive years, employment paying a certain amount,  paying Thai taxes, etc.   See doc at above link. 

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The document requires 10m for the investment visa.

Not just 3m which would be very little. 

Buying a condo doesn't count,  government bonds count,  as do Thai stocks.

[DD25]

  On 7/15/2023 at 12:48 PM, Pib said:

Go to above immigration webpage, click Paragraph 3 Required Documents which will pull up a list of documents required in the situation you talk about....you will see Thailand employment and Thai income tax docs are a  requirement.  The situation you ask about will be on page 3 of the 4 page doc.

 

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That takes us back to square one really because the eligibility criteria don't include any requirement to be employed in Thailand but the list of supporting documents does include an employment certification letter. Does this mean *if* you are employed (you have to give details of your income) you need to provide an employment certification letter, maybe, or does it mean that there is actually a requirement to be employed and it's just that the income threshold is lower if you are applying based on being married to / the parent of a Thai citizen?

[Pib]

  On 7/15/2023 at 12:57 PM, DD25 said:

That takes us back to square one really because the eligibility criteria don't include any requirement to be employed in Thailand but the list of supporting documents does include an employment certification letter. Does this mean *if* you are employed (you have to give details of your income) you need to provide an employment certification letter, maybe, or does it mean that there is actually a requirement to be employed and it's just that the income threshold is lower if you are applying based on being married to / the parent of a Thai citizen?

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A quote from the requirements docs....income/tax related forms/docs that must be provided.  No shortage of paperwork requirements for a PR.

 

  Quote

 

7. The letter of employment history from Office of Foreign Workers Administration (Work Permit), Department of Employment Library (download at https://www.immigration.go.th– Applying for a resident’s visa in Thailand) and copy of all of the supporter’s work permit(s) (every single page that contains information)

 

8.The employment certification letter from the supporter’s work place which is signed by the company’s authorized person (as per the official form) required last 2 years (download at https://www.immigration.go.th – Applying for a resident’s visa in Thailand) and employment application with employment agreement (if any)

 

9. Copy of the supporter’s annual personal income tax form (por ngor dor 91 or 90) with receipts for the previous 3 years prior to the application submission yearand a copy of the filed personal income tax returns e.g. P.N.D.50 which must be officially certified by the revenue officers

 

10.Copy of the supporter’s monthly income tax form (por ngor dor 1) with receipts from the beginning of the year of application submission (January) until the previous month of application submission which must be officially certified by the revenue officers

 

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[Etaoin Shrdlu]

  On 7/15/2023 at 12:34 PM, DD25 said:

Well that's good news, although the site that Pib linked to above (https://www.immigration.go.th/en/?page_id=1744) says it's 100 people per country per year. Out of date maybe (but if so, is the rest of it also out of date?)

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This is correct.

 

The limit is 100 per country. The limit is reached for a number of Asian countries (probably India, China and Japan where dual nationality may not be allowed and there is therefore more demand), but not for Western countries.

 

The reference to non-quota immigrant visa pertains to the re-entry visa that a PR holder obtains in order to leave and return while maintaining PR. There is no quota or limit applicable to the number of PR holders who may obtain such re-entry immigrant visas.

[Maestro]

  On 7/15/2023 at 12:34 PM, DD25 said:

Well that's good news, although the site that Pib linked to above (https://www.immigration.go.th/en/?page_id=1744) says it's 100 people per country per year. Out of date maybe (but if so, is the rest of it also out of date?)

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I got that wrong.

 

It is the non-immigrant visa issued to existing PR holders permitting them to re-enter Thailand that confused me.

[DD25]

  On 7/15/2023 at 1:13 PM, Pib said:

A quote from the requirements docs....income/tax related forms/docs that must be provided

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Yeah but the clause before that is talking about a certificate that you are still in education. Hard to see how you would be still in education but working at the same time. Not impossible I guess. Not clear how to interpret those requirements or how they relate to the eligibility requirements in the first document.

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

  On 7/15/2023 at 12:57 PM, DD25 said:

That takes us back to square one really because the eligibility criteria don't include any requirement to be employed in Thailand but the list of supporting documents does include an employment certification letter. Does this mean *if* you are employed (you have to give details of your income) you need to provide an employment certification letter, maybe, or does it mean that there is actually a requirement to be employed and it's just that the income threshold is lower if you are applying based on being married to / the parent of a Thai citizen?

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My understanding is that regardless of the circumstances upon which a PR application may be based, such as married to a Thai national, investment, etc. the requirements include being employed and paying Thai income taxes for three years. I suspect that females married to a Thai may meet this requirement on the basis of the Thai husband's employment and tax payments.

[DD25]

  On 7/15/2023 at 1:23 PM, Etaoin Shrdlu said:

My understanding is that regardless of the circumstances upon which a PR application may be based, such as married to a Thai national, investment, etc. the requirements include being employed and paying Thai income taxes for three years. I suspect that females married to a Thai may meet this requirement on the basis of the Thai husband's employment and tax payments.

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Could be, and makes sense of the earlier comments about wives being in a better position than husbands. Saying that I was just looking again at the eligibility requirements which I just skimmed the first time. If you are applying on the basis that you want to support your spouse there are two basic categories 1) working in Thailand 2) over 50. The list of documents has covers both of those situations, so I think the employment docs are probably only relevant if you are under 50 (which I am, but it was a long term plan anyway).

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

  On 7/15/2023 at 1:30 PM, DD25 said:

Could be, and makes sense of the earlier comments about wives being in a better position than husbands. Saying that I was just looking again at the eligibility requirements which I just skimmed the first time. If you are applying on the basis that you want to support your spouse there are two basic categories 1) working in Thailand 2) over 50. The list of documents has covers both of those situations, so I think the employment docs are probably only relevant if you are under 50 (which I am, but it was a long term plan anyway).

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Employment and payment of income taxes for three consecutive years is a requirement for PR regardless of age or marital status. 

[DD25]

@Mike Teavee I don't seem to be able to edit my earlier post but that info (you can apply if you have been married for at least 2 years) is only valid for over-50s. If you are younger than that it's 5 years unless you have a child or have a certificate to say you can't have kids, in which case it's 2, and you also have to be working. I don't think you have to be working if you are over 50. Otherwise there would be no point in the separate category in 3.3.1(2) of the eligibility document. Could be wrong though.

[scorecard]

  On 7/14/2023 at 1:27 PM, DD25 said:

I think it's quite easy to get PR if you work in Thailand but I'm less clear on whether it's achievable if you don't. Has anyone got it without an employment history?

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Keep in mind that:

 

- The failure rate of applications for PR is very high.

- There's a maximum number of approvals each year for each country (last I heard it was 50 per country, for the countries on the list)

- I got PR 26 years ago, the total number of actual approvals for my originl country for that year was 5 (as per point just above max. allowed was 50.)

[DD25]

  On 7/15/2023 at 1:42 PM, scorecard said:

Keep in mind that:

 

- The failure rate of applications for PR is very high.

- There's a maximum number of approvals each year for each country (last I heard it was 50 per country, for the countries on the list)

- I got PR 26 years ago, the total number of actual approvals for my originl country for that year was 5 (as per point just above max. allowed was 50.)

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It's now 100 but apparently the UK doesn't hit 100 per year so that's not really a concern. I'm not going to fail on any of the other categories so in my case it's just a question of whether you have to be working if you are over 50, or maybe whether you are still eligible but it counts against you at the discretionary stage.

[Ben Zioner]

  On 7/15/2023 at 6:01 AM, Mike Teavee said:

That aside the LTR is still a Non-Immigrant Visa whereas Permanent Residency

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The LTR  stands for  "Long Term Resident", 10 Years, near zero effort; at 70, why would one bother....

[scorecard]

  On 7/14/2023 at 11:09 PM, JayClay said:

It's possible to get PR if you work in Thailand,  but it's far from easy.

 

I don't think it's technically achievable without working (or at least earning) here. I did once meet some random lawyer in a bar in Bangkok once who said he could sort out Permanent Residency for less than the price of an Elita visa. I was skeptical...

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"...I don't think it's technically achievable without working (or at least earning) here. .."

 

And the person would need to have proof of holding a Thai work permit continuously for at least 3 years and still holding that work permit when they apply for PR.

 

Also the applicant needs documented proof their personal Thai Tax returns have been lodged and fully paid/cleared for the same period of time. 

 

[scorecard]

  On 7/15/2023 at 1:34 PM, Etaoin Shrdlu said:

Employment and payment of income taxes for three consecutive years is a requirement for PR regardless of age or marital status. 

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The 3 years item is stated in the regulations.

 

When I applied (27 years ago) I went to Soi Suan Plu with my agent, we lodge the full documents, an officer appears sudenly and siad in perfect English 'Do you hav one hour or a bit more right now, I'll do your interview now.

 

We went to another room and the interview proceeded ... 

 

He started by looking at the work permit copies/current WP book. and said:

- The regulations say 3 years but in reality we don't accept PR applications unless the foreginer can prove WPs for 7 years or more.

 

I was lucky I had proof of about 10 years.

[scorecard]

  On 7/15/2023 at 4:24 AM, watchcat said:

Why would you want a PR?

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The benefit to me is that I never have to reapply for renewal of a so called retirement visa or any other visa.

 

For many visas there's some chance renewal will not be approved. Plus the work involved to prepare all the documents every year, plus the costs of renewals.

 

However also note that PR is not cheap. There's a fee to submit the application and a substantial fee to be paid (once only) if PR is approved.

 

There's also the 800,000Baht in the bank factor for some visas, funds that are tied up for many years. Not required at all for PR holders.

 

For PR holders theres no 90 day or any other reporting. PR (Certificate or Residency is the correct term) is issued for life, it expires on the death of the holder.

 

Once issued the holder never has to go to an immigration office again except:

- To get an exit/re-entry stamp (very mechanical)

- To get the personal PR book replaced if the pages are full. For both these items there's no interview, no reconsideration whether the PR status should continue. 

 

For me the main benefit is that I have a 99.9% guarantee I will never be separated from my wonderful and very loving/caring Thai family because of a visa enewal issue.

 

 

 

[Chelseafan]

  On 7/15/2023 at 6:34 AM, DD25 said:

Another way to say it would be that you need to convince the UK authorities that you have emigrated and it's hard to do that if you are on a non-immigrant visa.

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And yet the UK Government doesn't increase your pension in line with UK citizens because you're living overseas...

 

 

[SAFETY FIRST]

  On 7/15/2023 at 6:31 PM, scorecard said:

The benefit to me is that I never have to reapply for renewal of a so called retirement visa or any other visa.

 

For many visas there's some chance renewal will not be approved. Plus the work involved to prepare all the documents every year, plus the costs of renewals.

 

However also note that PR is not cheap. There's a fee to submit the application and a substantial fee to be paid (once only) if PR is approved.

 

There's also the 800,000Baht in the bank factor for some visas, funds that are tied up for many years. Not required at all for PR holders.

 

For PR holders theres no 90 day or any other reporting. PR (Certificate or Residency is the correct term) is issued for life, it expires on the death of the holder.

 

Once issued the holder never has to go to an immigration office again except:

- To get an exit/re-entry stamp (very mechanical)

- To get the personal PR book replaced if the pages are full. For both these items there's no interview, no reconsideration whether the PR status should continue. 

 

For me the main benefit is that I have a 99.9% guarantee I will never be separated from my wonderful and very loving/caring Thai family because of a visa enewal issue.

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Getting an agent will solve your problems from reading your reason's above. 

 

Not expensive, no need to go to immigration office, they do my 90 day, exit/re-entry etc. 

 

[Hummin]

  On 7/15/2023 at 9:09 PM, SAFETY FIRST said:

Getting an agent will solve your problems from reading your reason's above. 

 

Not expensive, no need to go to immigration office, they do my 90 day, exit/re-entry etc. 

 

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Well as long you have everything in order and meet the requirements why on earth should you use an agent if not disabled or in bad health to wait in line? 

 

First time 30k, and then 15 - 25k for renewal? For some people that is alot of money! 

 

Roundtrip for two to Philippines?

 

 

[SAFETY FIRST]

  On 7/15/2023 at 9:23 PM, Hummin said:

Well as long you have everything in order and meet the requirements why on earth should you use an agent if not disabled or in bad health to wait in line? 

 

First time 30k, and then 15 - 25k for renewal? For some people that is alot of money! 

 

Roundtrip for two to Philippines?

 

 

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Where are you getting your figures from, you MUST research your information before commenting.

 

If you have everything in order and meet the requirements it only costs a few thousand baht on top of the 1900 baht for extension. 

 

[Hummin]

  On 7/15/2023 at 9:39 PM, SAFETY FIRST said:

Where are you getting your figures from, you MUST research your information before commenting.

 

If you have everything in order and meet the requirements it only costs a few thousand baht on top of the 1900 baht for extension. 

 

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Okay, thank you, sounds reasonable! 

[Mike Teavee]

  On 7/15/2023 at 4:16 PM, Ben Zioner said:

The LTR  stands for  "Long Term Resident", 10 Years, near zero effort; at 70, why would one bother....

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As I said, the majority of Retirees on here do not meet the financial requirements of the LTR so it might as well not exist for them but you are right, the potential point about UK inheritance Tax aside then it really is not worth the hassle of going for it at 70.

 

But then again, if I was 70 I'd just buy the 1 Million THB 20 year Visa & be done with it (am sorely tempted to do this now at 57, if I was 70 it would have been done 3-4 years ago).  

 

 

[Mike Teavee]

  On 7/15/2023 at 9:39 PM, SAFETY FIRST said:

Where are you getting your figures from, you MUST research your information before commenting.

 

If you have everything in order and meet the requirements it only costs a few thousand baht on top of the 1900 baht for extension. 

 

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Agreed, figures of 15-25K are very high, it's normally around 12,500B if you don't have the 800K in the bank so an extra 10,600B on top of the 1900B immigration fee. 

 

If you do have the money in the bank it's 8000B so an extra 6,100B on top of the 1,900B immigration fee - Worth it to me, others don't see the value & do it themselves - To each his own.

 

 

[bigt3116]

  On 7/15/2023 at 9:33 AM, DD25 said:

Now it seems almost too easy. Maybe it's the quota of 100 people / year that's the catch.

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It is actually 100 per year per nationality, and that quota is never met

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

  On 7/15/2023 at 5:07 PM, scorecard said:

The 3 years item is stated in the regulations.

 

When I applied (27 years ago) I went to Soi Suan Plu with my agent, we lodge the full documents, an officer appears sudenly and siad in perfect English 'Do you hav one hour or a bit more right now, I'll do your interview now.

 

We went to another room and the interview proceeded ... 

 

He started by looking at the work permit copies/current WP book. and said:

- The regulations say 3 years but in reality we don't accept PR applications unless the foreginer can prove WPs for 7 years or more.

 

I was lucky I had proof of about 10 years.

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I had nine years of employment and tax payments when I applied. I think my application probably went in the year after yours. The Thai language interview was perfunctory. In fact it was very informal and lasted all of about ten minutes.

[rimmae2]

To the OP suggest 1 or both of:

 

- ask a reputable lawyer if you can find one

- go to the PR section in Immigration at CW and ask or send someone knowledgeable to ask for a friend

 

 

[hughrection]

  On 7/15/2023 at 12:32 PM, DD25 said:

and you meet the minimum income requirement

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My problem is that I have been paying tax on Thai revenue for 12 years now BUT my employer (University) always doctors the books to save them paying more in Tax. This means that I do earn 40,000 baht but they split it up into accom and salary. I then only pay tax on the salary part which falls well below the threshold.

 

I can't win and I am married. Would love to get PR or Residence to give me peace of mind as the years pass. ????