The final analysis.

[thaibeachlovers]

  On 9/19/2023 at 6:38 AM, Danderman123 said:

Far from a stalemate. Russia's defensive lines are being breached.

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At what cost in Ukrainian lives?

[Danderman123]

  On 9/20/2023 at 3:04 AM, thaibeachlovers said:

At what cost in Ukrainian lives?

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You clearly don't understand the stakes for Ukraine.

[Jingthing]

  On 9/20/2023 at 3:04 AM, thaibeachlovers said:

At what cost in Ukrainian lives?

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A lot.

But what choice do they have against an effort by a genocidal imperialist to erase their country, language, culture, and people?

[Jingthing]

  On 9/20/2023 at 6:00 AM, Danderman123 said:

You clearly don't understand the stakes for Ukraine.

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It's like that idiot governor from Florida who called it a terroritorial dispute.

[impulse]

  On 9/19/2023 at 6:37 AM, Danderman123 said:

Watch and learn.

 

Ukraine will never stop fighting until Russia is evicted from Ukrainian territory.

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Or until they all die...

 

[Danderman123]

  On 9/20/2023 at 10:11 AM, impulse said:

Or until they all die...

 

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It sounds like that is your preferred outcome.

[impulse]

  On 9/20/2023 at 11:03 AM, Danderman123 said:

  On 9/20/2023 at 10:11 AM, impulse said:

Or until they all die...

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It sounds like that is your preferred outcome.

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Quite the opposite.  I'd prefer to see Ukraine accept the inevitable, quit killing each other and let the newly liberated area (yes, that's a deliberate turn of phrase) take a vote whether they want back into Ukraine, become part of Russia, or become an independent country.  Crimeans have already voted overwhelmingly to stay in Russia.  I'd prefer the Donbas be independent and a buffer between NATO and Russia.  But I'd leave it up to them to self determine.

 

Then (and only then) allow remaining Ukraine into NATO and come down like the Hammer of God if Putin tries to go any further.  I don't think he will.  He announced before the kerfuffle that his objective was to take the 4 Oblasts (that I collectively refer to as The Donbas, perhaps oversimpl-y) and let them decide whether to become independent or part of Russia.  That's what they have and that's why they aren't moving.

 

Problem is, without a definitive thrashing or regime change, Ukraine won't stop trying to take back what they have lost, including Crimea.  Which isn't happening, short of a nuclear war.

 

[nausea]

In the final analysis Russia has escalatory dominance. 

[thaibeachlovers]

  On 9/20/2023 at 6:00 AM, Danderman123 said:

You clearly don't understand the stakes for Ukraine.

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Do you assume you know more about it that I?

That would be a rather foolish assumption, IMO.

[thaibeachlovers]

  On 9/20/2023 at 10:11 AM, impulse said:

Or until they all die...

 

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More likely run out of men willing to go die for Ukraine.

[thaibeachlovers]

  On 9/20/2023 at 11:22 AM, impulse said:

Quite the opposite.  I'd prefer to see Ukraine accept the inevitable, quit killing each other and let the newly liberated area (yes, that's a deliberate turn of phrase) take a vote whether they want back into Ukraine, become part of Russia, or become an independent country.  Crimeans have already voted overwhelmingly to stay in Russia.  I'd prefer the Donbas be independent and a buffer between NATO and Russia.  But I'd leave it up to them to self determine.

 

Then (and only then) allow remaining Ukraine into NATO and come down like the Hammer of God if Putin tries to go any further.  I don't think he will.  He announced before the kerfuffle that his objective was to take the 4 Oblasts (that I collectively refer to as The Donbas, perhaps oversimpl-y) and let them decide whether to become independent or part of Russia.  That's what they have and that's why they aren't moving.

 

Problem is, without a definitive thrashing or regime change, Ukraine won't stop trying to take back what they have lost, including Crimea.  Which isn't happening, short of a nuclear war.

 

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I said something along those lines right at the start of the conflict, but as expected had the usual reaction from the armchair warriors thousands of miles away from the danger. I wonder how many of them have put themselves in the conflict as part of the Ukrainian military?

[thaibeachlovers]

Just watched an article on Al Jazeera concerning Zelensky at the UN Security Council.

Nothing new to say, of course, and Russia still has the veto if the UN did try to actually do something, other than talk, against Russia.

 

As usual, nothing about any gains on the front line, so perhaps there are none worth giving air time to.

[Danderman123]

  On 9/20/2023 at 11:22 AM, impulse said:

Quite the opposite.  I'd prefer to see Ukraine accept the inevitable, quit killing each other and let the newly liberated area (yes, that's a deliberate turn of phrase) take a vote whether they want back into Ukraine, become part of Russia, or become an independent country.  Crimeans have already voted overwhelmingly to stay in Russia.  I'd prefer the Donbas be independent and a buffer between NATO and Russia.  But I'd leave it up to them to self determine.

 

Then (and only then) allow remaining Ukraine into NATO and come down like the Hammer of God if Putin tries to go any further.  I don't think he will.  He announced before the kerfuffle that his objective was to take the 4 Oblasts (that I collectively refer to as The Donbas, perhaps oversimpl-y) and let them decide whether to become independent or part of Russia.  That's what they have and that's why they aren't moving.

 

Problem is, without a definitive thrashing or regime change, Ukraine won't stop trying to take back what they have lost, including Crimea.  Which isn't happening, short of a nuclear war.

 

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Watch and learn.

[Danderman123]

  On 9/20/2023 at 9:23 PM, thaibeachlovers said:

I said something along those lines right at the start of the conflict, but as expected had the usual reaction from the armchair warriors thousands of miles away from the danger. I wonder how many of them have put themselves in the conflict as part of the Ukrainian military?

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Because you believe that Putin can be trusted.

[thaibeachlovers]

  On 9/20/2023 at 9:52 PM, Danderman123 said:

Because you believe that Putin can be trusted.

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LOL. I don't trust any politician, of any nationality.

[Danderman123]

  On 9/20/2023 at 10:14 PM, thaibeachlovers said:

LOL. I don't trust any politician, of any nationality.

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so why should Ukraine trust Putin to adhere to any deal to stop the war?

[heybruce]

  On 9/20/2023 at 11:22 AM, impulse said:

Quite the opposite.  I'd prefer to see Ukraine accept the inevitable, quit killing each other and let the newly liberated area (yes, that's a deliberate turn of phrase) take a vote whether they want back into Ukraine, become part of Russia, or become an independent country.  Crimeans have already voted overwhelmingly to stay in Russia.  I'd prefer the Donbas be independent and a buffer between NATO and Russia.  But I'd leave it up to them to self determine.

 

Then (and only then) allow remaining Ukraine into NATO and come down like the Hammer of God if Putin tries to go any further.  I don't think he will.  He announced before the kerfuffle that his objective was to take the 4 Oblasts (that I collectively refer to as The Donbas, perhaps oversimpl-y) and let them decide whether to become independent or part of Russia.  That's what they have and that's why they aren't moving.

 

Problem is, without a definitive thrashing or regime change, Ukraine won't stop trying to take back what they have lost, including Crimea.  Which isn't happening, short of a nuclear war.

 

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The biggest problem with your preference is that it isn't the preference of the Ukrainian people.  There's also the issue of the Crimean election held under Russian military invasion having no credibility.  Finally the fact that if Putin gets the concessions he wants and you want to give him he will use the seized territories to ensure that Ukraine never gets into NATO.

[heybruce]

  On 9/20/2023 at 7:09 PM, nausea said:

In the final analysis Russia has escalatory dominance. 

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Only if Russia takes the suicidal step of going nuclear.

[thaibeachlovers]

  On 9/20/2023 at 10:20 PM, Danderman123 said:

so why should Ukraine trust Putin to adhere to any deal to stop the war?

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If the west stops sending the bullets what choice will they have?

If, as seems likely, there is no breakthrough before winter, it'll be another year or two or three of conflict. I'm not psychic, but I reckon the chances of the west continuing an indefinite support costing billions is zero.

BTW, the west has already ( apparently ) used up it's excess supply of munitions ( at least that's the reason Biden gave cluster bombs to Ukraine, isn't it? ) so that'll be the end.

[heybruce]

  On 9/21/2023 at 6:18 AM, thaibeachlovers said:

If the west stops sending the bullets what choice will they have?

If, as seems likely, there is no breakthrough before winter, it'll be another year or two or three of conflict. I'm not psychic, but I reckon the chances of the west continuing an indefinite support costing billions is zero.

BTW, the west has already ( apparently ) used up it's excess supply of munitions ( at least that's the reason Biden gave cluster bombs to Ukraine, isn't it? ) so that'll be the end.

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Are you aware that both sides are facing munitions shortages?  And that the west has a greater ability to ramp up production than Russia?

[Jingthing]

WW2 took several years.

The Russian fascists though they could win in a day.

If it takes years it takes years for Ukraine to prevail and prevail they must.

Putins main last hope is to wait to see if fascist isolationist Trump returns to power.

[billd766]

  On 9/19/2023 at 6:41 AM, Danderman123 said:

Surprisingly, the Cuban government opposes Cubans fighting in Ukraine. The scammers are third party recruiters, working to snatch Cubans under false pretenses. Some scammers have already been caught.

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send the scammers to the very front line and use them as mk1 mine detectors, unarmed of course.

[billd766]

  On 9/20/2023 at 9:23 PM, thaibeachlovers said:

I said something along those lines right at the start of the conflict, but as expected had the usual reaction from the armchair warriors thousands of miles away from the danger. I wonder how many of them have put themselves in the conflict as part of the Ukrainian military?

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Talking of armchair warriors thousand of miles away, have you put yourself into he conflict yet?

[Danderman123]

  On 9/21/2023 at 11:38 AM, billd766 said:

Talking of armchair warriors thousand of miles away, have you put yourself into he conflict yet?

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Thaibeachlovers can't speak Russian (I hope).

[Danderman123]

  On 9/21/2023 at 6:18 AM, thaibeachlovers said:

If the west stops sending the bullets what choice will they have?

If, as seems likely, there is no breakthrough before winter, it'll be another year or two or three of conflict. I'm not psychic, but I reckon the chances of the west continuing an indefinite support costing billions is zero.

BTW, the west has already ( apparently ) used up it's excess supply of munitions ( at least that's the reason Biden gave cluster bombs to Ukraine, isn't it? ) so that'll be the end.

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The Tankies claim that the Military Industrial Complex loves this war.

 

So, who is going to stop them from producing more and more armaments?

[Tug]

  On 9/20/2023 at 9:23 PM, thaibeachlovers said:

I said something along those lines right at the start of the conflict, but as expected had the usual reaction from the armchair warriors thousands of miles away from the danger. I wonder how many of them have put themselves in the conflict as part of the Ukrainian military?

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So when are you going to join the Wagner group?im suer they take foreign volunteers 

[thaibeachlovers]

  On 9/21/2023 at 12:09 PM, Danderman123 said:

The Tankies claim that the Military Industrial Complex loves this war.

 

So, who is going to stop them from producing more and more armaments?

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Time. Western countries are not on a war footing, so production is not expidited.

[thaibeachlovers]

  On 9/21/2023 at 12:06 PM, Danderman123 said:

Thaibeachlovers can't speak Russian (I hope).

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No I can't, but I don't see what that has to do with anything.

[thaibeachlovers]

  On 9/21/2023 at 11:38 AM, billd766 said:

Talking of armchair warriors thousand of miles away, have you put yourself into he conflict yet?

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Stupid question as I was against the war when it started. Why on earth would I go fight in it?

[heybruce]

  On 9/22/2023 at 12:46 AM, thaibeachlovers said:

Stupid question as I was against the war when it started. Why on earth would I go fight in it?

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Is anyone besides Russia in favor of the war?