As Pheu Thai keeps crossing new lines, Move Forward finds own dilemma

[webfact]

 

Senators rejecting a Pheu Thai prime ministerial nominee will be heavily criticised, but that possibility will have been largely expected. Move Forward doing the same, however, will be a lot more questionable, thought-provoking or downright controversial.

 

Pheu Thai has crossed the line first. Bhumjaithai was just the beginning of a slippery slope. The second biggest party is already being branded a traitor, an ideological chameleon who could be subjected to voters’ wrath in the next general election. The apparent contact with the United Thai Nation (Ruam Thai Sang Chart) Party is the final, big nail in the coffin.

 

The Move Forward-Pheu Thai collision, though, will not leave the surprised election winner unscathed.

 

Look who voted for Pita Limjaroenrat and look who are set to reject a Pheu Thai prime ministerial nominee, said MP Adisorn Piengkes of the second-biggest party this week. It was a swipe in an on-going war of words that has come close to _ but has not quite touched _ a very important aspect of the turmoil, the question whether Move Forward, for all its proclamations, is helping democracy.

 

The answer can be either yes or no. The question is very subtle and soul-searching, bringing debatable pragmatism up against inflexibility which is also doubtful. Of the two parties, Pheu Thai made the first compromise the minute it was seen to be approaching Bhumjaithai. While that alone may justify Move Forward’s consequent reactions, the biggest party may be about to cross a line itself.

 

by Tulsathit Taptim

 

Full story: https://www.thaipbsworld.com/as-pheu-thai-keeps-crossing-new-lines-move-forward-finds-own-dilemma/

 

-- Thai PBS 2023-08-19

 

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[ballpoint]

"Democracy" would be the two largest parties, with a combined 292 out of 500 seats, and, supposedly, having the same anti military, anti old-order goals, sticking together no matter what and refusing to budge, thereby forcing a minority government.  MFP has principles, and is sticking to them.  PTP also has principles, but if they won't get the man back, they have others.  All this talk of compromise, and doing the wrong thing now in the hope that it can be fixed in the future, only serves to build up the position of the losing parties, resoundingly rejected by the people in the election.  Yet, that is being touted as the democratic thing to do here.  It's the furthest from democracy they can go, without actually having a formal coup.

 

 

Edited August 19, 2023 by ballpoint

[MarcelV]

Why would MF have to vote for the PM candidate of the backstabbing PTP?

I for sure wouldn't, and I hope neither will they.

Let PTP have their cake and eat it, together with the uncles and Anutin. I'm sure it'll be a blast.????

Edited August 19, 2023 by MarcelV

[mfd101]

High risk whatever MFP and PTP do:

 

(1) If MFP votes against Sretta & goes into (effectively) one-party opposition, it may last thru till the next election whenever that is and then triumph with a smashing victory. Or it may or may not be abolished by CC edict but in any case it gradually sinks in to irrelevance like the Democrats and more or less disappears from the scene after the next election;

(2) Basically the same - more or less extreme - alternatives await PTP.  They 'lead' a government dominated by dinosaurs and suffer a resounding defeat & irrelevance at the next election, or they retire next week into a dignified opposition party alongside MFP and live to hope for a better future after the next wunnerful exercise of Thai democracy.

[ikke1959]

Move Forward should abstain from voting Tuesday. The problem is that Pheu Thai left them behind although hey had an agreement and they want to further with the old Government.. Both a good reason not to give their votes... All other about democracy and the future of the country is brainwashing and lead to nowhere. Move Forward won the elections, and are being passed because 250 senators don't want civilians. This Tuesday you will see that the same will happen with Pheu Thai. 10K, new constitution, doubts about Srettha, etc etc and the senators will again take care that he will not be the next PM. They only vote for Prawith and maybe Anutin, or even Prayuth as he still has 2 years to go as PM.. Pheu Thai will have nothing.. 

Edited August 19, 2023 by ikke1959

[kingstonkid]

The 3rd option is to not vote just like the senators did.

4th optio nominate one of the 3 uncles.

[Enoon]

1 hour ago, kingstonkid said:

The 3rd option is to not vote just like the senators did.

4th optio nominate one of the 3 uncles.

 

3rd option is to abandon the ludicrous, corrupt, immoral, self-serving travesty that is the civil process in Thailand.

 

At the moment MF stands apart from the monkey circus, unquestionably firmly in possession of the moral high ground, gaining greater moral strength with every day that the apes bargain with each other.

 

There is no civil solution.

 

 

Edited August 19, 2023 by Enoon

[hotchilli]

5 hours ago, MarcelV said:

Why would MF have to vote for the PM candidate of the backstabbing PTP?

I for sure wouldn't, and I hope neither will they.

Let PTP have their cake and eat it, together with the uncles and Anutin. I'm sure it'll be a blast.????

Yes, MFP abstain from the vote, screw PTP who have back-stabbed everyone to try and get into power.

Let the whole circus parade fail, have another election and see who wins out-right.

[MarcelV]

1 hour ago, kingstonkid said:

The 3rd option is to not vote just like the senators did.

4th optio nominate one of the 3 uncles.

Nominate General Prayut just for laughs.

[kingstonkid]

1 hour ago, MarcelV said:

Nominate General Prayut just for laughs.

The last idea was sleepy and his watches.

 

Imagine a meeting prawit and joe they can have a nap

[BusyB]

MF doesn't have to vote for or against. It can abstain.

 

Keeps hands clean by not supporting the junta as promised, doesn't vote against the party which is its more natural partner thus deescalating, and then bides its time till the next election ... where history will most certainly not be forgotten.

 

And in the meantime shows its prowess as a powerful and positive  parliamentary force in opposition that the electorate can trust not only for its policies but also to keep its word and behave like the only genuine democratic party available.

 

The OP its a massive junta friendly smoke screen, purporting to be political science, with the sole aim of obfuscation and smoke-screening what is shaping up to be a grotesque perversion of the election result.

Edited August 19, 2023 by BusyB

[Dogmatix]

Tulsahtit's article is utter nonsense.  MFP made it totally clear that that it cannot go against its supporters' wishes, unlike PT. MFP did a poll of members and got a 95% vote against voting for a PT candidate after the backstabbing. So the MFP leaders couldn't support a PT candidate now, even if they wanted to.

[lordgrinz]

Just let PT keep digging its own grave, MFP just needs to stand their ground, PT will be lucky to get 100 votes next election.

[HaoleBoy]

A POS pro-junta article trying to cast blame onto MFP.  MFP isn't voting against Democracy or Sretta by not voting for PTP candidate.  MFP is voting against a coalition that has junta parties in it - UTN.  If PTP hadn't allowed UTN (and possibly PPRP) to join then there might be a case of MFP voting for PTP candidate (even with BheumThai Jai party).

 

If the junta senators vote against Sretta then they really show their BS bias.  If this happens then PTP should dissolve the coalition and move into the oppostion with MFP.

 

Except the "great manipulator" - Taksin - won't allow PTP to back out.  His manipulations just so he can come back to Thailand are very SAD and do not bode will for the country.

[bradiston]

On 8/19/2023 at 10:57 AM, MarcelV said:

Why would MF have to vote for the PM candidate of the backstabbing PTP?

I for sure wouldn't, and I hope neither will they.

Let PTP have their cake and eat it, together with the uncles and Anutin. I'm sure it'll be a blast.????

And let them choke on it

[bradiston]

3 hours ago, HaoleBoy said:

A POS pro-junta article trying to cast blame onto MFP.  MFP isn't voting against Democracy or Sretta by not voting for PTP candidate.  MFP is voting against a coalition that has junta parties in it - UTN.  If PTP hadn't allowed UTN (and possibly PPRP) to join then there might be a case of MFP voting for PTP candidate (even with BheumThai Jai party).

 

If the junta senators vote against Sretta then they really show their BS bias.  If this happens then PTP should dissolve the coalition and move into the oppostion with MFP.

 

Except the "great manipulator" - Taksin - won't allow PTP to back out.  His manipulations just so he can come back to Thailand are very SAD and do not bode will for the country.

MFP owes PT no favours. The great betrayal was PT not following MFP into opposition. Laid the foundations for the catastrophe that's now unfolding. History will surely record it as one of the greatest missed opportunities for redressing the deficiencies in the Thai political system ever. Could have completely overturned the status quo and brought to the fore badly needed new talent, new thinking, new ideas. PT ruled by self interest, that's all.

[bannork]

On 8/19/2023 at 1:25 PM, mfd101 said:

High risk whatever MFP and PTP do:

 

(1) If MFP votes against Sretta & goes into (effectively) one-party opposition, it may last thru till the next election whenever that is and then triumph with a smashing victory. Or it may or may not be abolished by CC edict but in any case it gradually sinks in to irrelevance like the Democrats and more or less disappears from the scene after the next election;

(2) Basically the same - more or less extreme - alternatives await PTP.  They 'lead' a government dominated by dinosaurs and suffer a resounding defeat & irrelevance at the next election, or they retire next week into a dignified opposition party alongside MFP and live to hope for a better future after the next wunnerful exercise of Thai democracy.

Have to disagree about high risks for MF.

The dissolution case, accused of trying to destroy the monarchy. 

I read two lawyers' opinions on this and they both said the accusation is baseless.

MF want to amend a criminal law, Article 112, diluting the penalties for transgressions, but under Thai constitutional law, the monarchy is inviolate. 

Constitutional law trumps criminal law ( apologies for using that word) therefore reform of a criminal law is no threat to the monarchy's position, enshrined under constitutional law.

But TIT.

Secondly , even if dissolved, the phoenix will rise from the ashes, just like MF arose from FF. There are plenty of able and bright Thais willing to carry the baton forward.

For this new government, PT will push for populist policies to maintain the support of those that don't care about joining the junta boys. 

But it's unlikely to be a steady coalition, too many snouts in the trough, PT are outnumbered by Bhumjaithai, Pravit, Prayuth and a few others. Plenty of chance to rock the boat.

 

 

Edited August 20, 2023 by bannork

[mfd101]

1 hour ago, bannork said:

Have to disagree about high risks for MF.

The dissolution case, accused of trying to destroy the monarchy. 

I read two lawyers' opinions on this and they both said the accusation is baseless.

MF want to amend a criminal law, Article 112, diluting the penalties for transgressions, but under Thai constitutional law, the monarchy is inviolate. 

Constitutional law trumps criminal law ( apologies for using that word) therefore reform of a criminal law is no threat to the monarchy's position, enshrined under constitutional law.

But TIT.

Secondly , even if dissolved, the phoenix will rise from the ashes, just like MF arose from FF. There are plenty of able and bright Thais willing to carry the baton forward.

For this new government, PT will push for populist policies to maintain the support of those that don't care about joining the junta boys. 

But it's unlikely to be a steady coalition, too many snouts in the trough, PT are outnumbered by Bhumjaithai, Pravit, Prayuth and a few others. Plenty of chance to rock the boat.

 

 

Hope you're right on the first item, but the record so far is that the EC & the CC will between them find some ridiculous excuse to do the dirty on MFP. They don't need either logic or good legal argument ... Fingers crossed.

 

On the second item, just as MFP is the largest single party in the HofR but still in a minority, so in government the PTP will be the largest single party but in a minority both in the HofR and  - I'm guessing - maybe in the Cabinet room too. Not sure how that latter point would pan out. In a Western nation the Cabinet generally works by consensus and not by actual vote, and - while the PM is greatly influential - he or she is not a dictator within the Party room or Cabinet.  But in Thailand ...

[bannork]

1 hour ago, mfd101 said:

Hope you're right on the first item, but the record so far is that the EC & the CC will between them find some ridiculous excuse to do the dirty on MFP. They don't need either logic or good legal argument ... Fingers crossed.

 

On the second item, just as MFP is the largest single party in the HofR but still in a minority, so in government the PTP will be the largest single party but in a minority both in the HofR and  - I'm guessing - maybe in the Cabinet room too. Not sure how that latter point would pan out. In a Western nation the Cabinet generally works by consensus and not by actual vote, and - while the PM is greatly influential - he or she is not a dictator within the Party room or Cabinet.  But in Thailand ...

Yes, at the moment we can only speculate.

For instance, if Thaksin does come back, what will be his conditions for release, both physically and politically.

For instance, will he be remanded and then sent to a luxurious private hospital, citing health and age, a kind of suspended sentence, or will he be fully pardoned on day one?

We'll soon know if he really comes back.

And then political conditions. Surely the elite are going to force PT to adopt a conservative line regarding a new  constitution.

PT could override that by voting with MF but will Thaksin allow that? His hospital accommodation could be downgraded if PT get too liberal.

Have to wait and see.

 

[retarius]

On 8/19/2023 at 5:55 PM, Enoon said:

 

3rd option is to abandon the ludicrous, corrupt, immoral, self-serving travesty that is the civil process in Thailand.

 

At the moment MF stands apart from the monkey circus, unquestionably firmly in possession of the moral high ground, gaining greater moral strength with every day that the apes bargain with each other.

 

There is no civil solution.

 

 

Everybody who has had no experience in government comes up with the same old hype. Do you really believe that Pita is the one man in the world who is an honest politician when he gets into power? If so I have a bridge I swear you are going to love to buy. Pita will turn out like all the rest. Why? Well, because power always corrupts people, then they start wanting more power and start abusing their powers, and then don't want to give up their power to anyone else and start rigging constitutions and elections. It is psychological rule. 

[eisfeld]

Political parties are supposed to represent their voters. MFP would have supported a PT candidate if PT was still aligned with the wishes of the MFP voters. But PT went and did a u-turn and is now in bed with the very people that MFP was formed to get rid of. Of course if MFP was to still represent their voters they can't vote for the opposite of their voters wishes.

 

I don't understand why this is supposed to be a subtle, soul-searching situation? It's only so if you ignore the important part of simply what the purpose of MFP is and trying to be "flexible", MFP's mission is not go be in government. It is to change the government.

 

What some describe as being flexible, pragmatic or "focusing on the situation at hand" as PT has done, is simply corruption. It is betraying ones own values and worse - betraying the voters who they are supposed to represent. Selling something that was not theirs for personal gain.

 

MFP voting against PT is the only correct choice unless MFP wants to give into corruption and just end up as more of the same old.

[bannork]

18 minutes ago, eisfeld said:

Political parties are supposed to represent their voters. MFP would have supported a PT candidate if PT was still aligned with the wishes of the MFP voters. But PT went and did a u-turn and is now in bed with the very people that MFP was formed to get rid of. Of course if MFP was to still represent their voters they can't vote for the opposite of their voters wishes.

 

I don't understand why this is supposed to be a subtle, soul-searching situation? It's only so if you ignore the important part of simply what the purpose of MFP is and trying to be "flexible", MFP's mission is not go be in government. It is to change the government.

 

What some describe as being flexible, pragmatic or "focusing on the situation at hand" as PT has done, is simply corruption. It is betraying ones own values and worse - betraying the voters who they are supposed to represent. Selling something that was not theirs for personal gain.

 

MFP voting against PT is the only correct choice unless MFP wants to give into corruption and just end up as more of the same old.

The OP has written for The Nation for years. He has to try and constantly come up with a new angle on current issues.

Unfortunately, he often fails, as here 

[Thingamabob]

Strange article. MFP should steer well clear of this shameful farce. Their public support will increase if they do not become involved, and their time will come at the next election.

[bradiston]

1 hour ago, retarius said:

Everybody who has had no experience in government comes up with the same old hype. Do you really believe that Pita is the one man in the world who is an honest politician when he gets into power? If so I have a bridge I swear you are going to love to buy. Pita will turn out like all the rest. Why? Well, because power always corrupts people, then they start wanting more power and start abusing their powers, and then don't want to give up their power to anyone else and start rigging constitutions and elections. It is psychological rule. 

So you're an anarchist?

[bannork]

 

[Toolong]

What rubbish! Either intentional media hustle or blinkered, ignorant waffle.

 

There IS NO 'democratic' principle for which the MFP might be accused of ignoring for their own self-interested gain, at any expense of 'democracy'

 

This whole sh*tfest exemplifies the truest opposition to that which the term democracy ever stood for.

 

I pray MFP stay prepared to - momentarily - die on the hill of principle on which they currently stand, because before them, in turn, lies political resurrection and great reward.... for them and for the nation.