Man kills shopkeeper in US state of California after disparaging Pride flag

[youreavinalaff]

5 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

 

Struggling to back up your assertions, again.

 

No. 

 

The evidence is there for all to see in your posts. No need for further back up 

[n00dle]

On 8/21/2023 at 1:15 PM, johnnybangkok said:

Do we all have to kowtow to the religous extremist or the uneducated right wingers who threaten violence rather than dialogue?

the issue is that the left does not promote dialogue either. They berate, They bully. They shame and they cancel. Freedom of speech fine, but don't get my gender of the day wrong. god forbid you call me by my birth, I mean dead name.

 

Its all pathetic. Unfortunately this is what happens when the idiots on both sides take over.

[Chomper Higgot]

29 minutes ago, n00dle said:

the issue is that the left does not promote dialogue either. They berate, They bully. They shame and they cancel. Freedom of speech fine, but don't get my gender of the day wrong. god forbid you call me by my birth, I mean dead name.

 

Its all pathetic. Unfortunately this is what happens when the idiots on both sides take over.

A bit of a false equivalence.

 

The issue is not ‘that the left does not promote dialogue either’.

 

Its a guy gunning down a business owner for having the temerity to fly a pride flag at her own business premises.

 

I look forward to hearing what motivated him.

 

[Chomper Higgot]

52 minutes ago, n00dle said:

lookit you putting words in my mouth.

Nice try, but of course it is the shooter's fault.
 

That said extremist rhetoric has brought us to a situation where ANYONE who does not blindly accept LBGTQ rehetoric is demonised. That in turn creates animosity from the other extreme.  it’s a vicious cycle and nether extreme is in the right.  

“extremist rhetoric has brought us to a situation where ANYONE who does not blindly accept LBGTQ rehetoric is demonised.”

 

Perhaps extremist rhetoric has played a part in motivating the killer to gun down the business owner.

 

I expect we’ll find the answer to that when fuller reports are available.

 

Who knows maybe you are right, maybe someone’s rhetoric did play a part in driving him to killing.

 

 

[placeholder]

6 hours ago, heybruce said:

So you think freedom of expression should be limited to those times when expressing oneself would not offend anyone?  Talk about woke!

Hey, college students shout people those they disagree with down, right wingers shoot those they disagree with. Same, same.

[JonnyF]

11 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Hey, college students shout people those they disagree with down, right wingers shoot those they disagree with. Same, same.

Yeah there has never been any violence from left wingers, the lgbt community,  socialists, ANTIFA, communists or marxists. It's all peace and love from them.

 

It's just college students shouting.

 

Fantastic point.

[JemJem]

On 8/21/2023 at 6:49 AM, JonnyF said:

Hyperbole. I don't see any frenzy of hate. Just a few isolated incidents. 

 

You may be aware but homosexuality is not promoted by various religions (Christianity, Islam etc.). This is not a new thing, it is thousands of years old. A quick trip to many Muslim countries would clarify this for you very quickly. So if you wish to show your support of LGBTQ++ in such an open, flagrant way then you run the risk of offending certain groups. With the rise of multicultural societies such as the US and the UK, members of these groups may well be living next door to you.

 

Now, before you go all Strawman on me, I am not suggesting she deserved it. Far from it, I think it is a terrible incident and condolences to her family. I am merely stating that people should be aware that by flying their Pride flag or any other flag with potentially divisive political/religious connotations they run the risk (rightly or wrongly) of offending certain people. If they know that and choose to proceed anyway, in the knowledge that they will be offending certain groups then that is their personal choice. In this case she flew the flag in the knowledge that some people would be offended and then confronted the person who was offended. Very brave. RIP.

Your reasoning is sadly not much different from that of people who say stuff like 'I am not suggesting she deserved to be raped, but that woman should have known about the potential consequences of wearing skimpy clothing at night in that neighborhood'.

 

Heartless thinking !

 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

13 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

Yeah there has never been any violence from left wingers, the lgbt community,  socialists, ANTIFA, communists or marxists. It's all peace and love from them.

 

It's just college students shouting.

 

Fantastic point.

Whataboutary.

 

Refer topic of discussion at top of thread.

[placeholder]

13 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

Yeah there has never been any violence from left wingers, the lgbt community,  socialists, ANTIFA, communists or marxists. It's all peace and love from them.

 

It's just college students shouting.

 

Fantastic point.

In fact about as stupid as 

"Maybe people can start being a bit more considerate of others with different views to themselves. I know it's not a trait of the left but maybe they could at least consider others for once."

[Chomper Higgot]

There’s a lot of effort being made in this thread to put blame on the left wing of the political spectrum.

 

Reporting I have read gives no indication that leftwing politics motivated the killer.

 

 

I look forward to hearing what motivated him.

 

 

[norfolkandchance]

2 hours ago, n00dle said:

the issue is that the left does not promote dialogue either. They berate, They bully. They shame and they cancel. Freedom of speech fine, but don't get my gender of the day wrong. god forbid you call me by my birth, I mean dead name.

 

Its all pathetic. Unfortunately this is what happens when the idiots on both sides take over.

Cowson. A bit like Asshat as you called me.

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, Chomper Higgot said:

There’s a lot of effort being made in this thread to put blame on the left wing of the political spectrum.

 

Reporting I have read gives no indication that leftwing politics motivated the killer.

 

 

I look forward to hearing what motivated him.

 

 

Egads.

It's obvious.

HOMOPHOBIA

[heybruce]

9 hours ago, Baht Simpson said:

Just as an aside I don't think Jesus Freak is a particularly pejorative term. I'm old enough to remember the 60s and Jesus Freaks were just thought of as a wacky movement but nothing sinister; they were all love and peace. In fact they came to own the name, calling themselves that. 

 

https://www.compellingtruth.org/Jesus-freak.html

 

"Jesus freak" was a term used to describe the non-traditional Christians of the Jesus Movement. "Freak" here means enthusiast, and although the term was originally used by outsiders, believers in the movement adopted it as their own.
 

It's a rather derogatory label of course, but certainly not hate speech.  A bit like bible-bashers I suppose.  

Yes, people used to happily refer to themselves as Jesus Freaks.  Did the term become politically incorrect, and if so, when?

[heybruce]

7 hours ago, placeholder said:

Hey, college students shout people those they disagree with down, right wingers shoot those they disagree with. Same, same.

That was my point.  Freedom of speech is meaningless when it is restricted to inoffensive speech. 

 

Perhaps I should have used "politically correct" instead of "woke".  Woke is at best ill-defined, though I gather that on the left it means avoiding offense, sometimes to ridiculous degrees (I don't mind coming up with new terms to accommodate new sexual identities, but leave established words and definitions alone) .  The right it seems to think offensiveness is acceptable except when it isn't; it's acceptable to offend, well, lots of people, but not acceptable to offend white people by teaching about the country's history of slavery and racism.

 

Regardless, the woman had every right to express herself by flying the pride flag even if it upset some people, she had every right to defend her right to free expression, and the animal who killed her had no right to object to the flag or commit murder.

[Jingthing]

59 minutes ago, heybruce said:

That was my point.  Freedom of speech is meaningless when it is restricted to inoffensive speech. 

 

Perhaps I should have used "politically correct" instead of "woke".  Woke is at best ill-defined, though I gather that on the left it means avoiding offense, sometimes to ridiculous degrees (I don't mind coming up with new terms to accommodate new sexual identities, but leave established words and definitions alone) .  The right it seems to think offensiveness is acceptable except when it isn't; it's acceptable to offend, well, lots of people, but not acceptable to offend white people by teaching about the country's history of slavery and racism.

 

Regardless, the woman had every right to express herself by flying the pride flag even if it upset some people, she had every right to defend her right to free expression, and the animal who killed her had no right to object to the flag or commit murder.

Well, he had the right to object to it but as he objected to it so strongly, he should have just avoided shopping at that private business.

[jerrymahoney]

Who was Travis Ikeguchi? Shooter in pride flag killing posted far-right, anti-LGBTQ content

 

AUG. 22, 2023 2:16 PM PT

Court documents and a few social media posts paint a narrow picture of Ikeguchi’s troubled life, a young man struggling to make ends meet and support his mother while falling further into an abyss of social media conspiracy theories and hate-fueled rhetoric online.

 

“I know it’s controversial for me to mention the option to kill a police officer, but these police officers are not the servants for the people they are the servants for the laws,” a post in 2021 reads.

The posts belie the fact that Ikeguchi was the son of a Florida Highway Patrol state trooper and firearms instructor who had reached the level of “master trooper,” according to court filings.

 

https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2023-08-22/who-was-travis-ikeguchi-shooter-in-lake-arrowhead-pride-flag-killing

 

https://archive.is/bIIpK#selection-1263.1-1263.92

[Bkk Brian]

A few more details emerging............

 

He only followed 19 people on X, one of those being Trump

 

Man Who Shot Store Owner for Flying Pride Flag Was a Far-Right Conspiracist

Travis Ikeguchi, 27, shot Laura Ann Carleton, 66, on Friday after “yelling many homophobic slurs” about the store’s pride flag, San Bernardino County Sheriff Shannon Dicus said at a news conference Monday.

When confronted, police said in a press conference, the 27-year-old fired at multiple patrol vehicles with an unregistered semi-automatic handgun before he was shot in what was described by officials as a “lethal force encounter.”

"a review of 27-year-old’s social media accounts on X, the platform formerly known as Twitter, and the far-right social network Gab, show that the shooter had fully embraced a wide range of conspiracy theories—from claiming the 9/11 attacks were staged to suggestions that former first lady Michelle Obama is a man to denying climate change. 

https://www.vice.com/en/article/n7ed4q/laura-carleton-pride-flag-shooting

[jerrymahoney]

6 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

When confronted, police said in a press conference, the 27-year-old fired at multiple patrol vehicles with an unregistered semi-automatic handgun before he was shot in what was described by officials as a “lethal force encounter.”

Suicide by cop

 

Suicide by cop, also known as suicide by police or law-enforcement-assisted suicide, is a suicide method in which a suicidal individual deliberately behaves in a threatening manner, with intent to provoke a lethal response from a public safety or law enforcement officer to end their own life.

 

There are two broad categories of "suicide by cop". ... The second version involves people who are already contemplating suicide and who decide to provoke law enforcement into killing them. These individuals may commit a crime with the specific intention of provoking a law enforcement response.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_by_cop

 

[Tug]

Looks like it’s turning out to be some right wing nut spurred on and in raged by the rage filled words of a political party with no agenda but rage and division sad wrong unessary destructive and unamerican in my humble opinion 

[bamnutsak]

2 hours ago, jerrymahoney said:

The posts belie the fact that Ikeguchi was the son of a Florida Highway Patrol state trooper and firearms instructor who had reached the level of “master trooper,” according to court filings.

Daddy issues.

 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

3 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

A few more details emerging............

 

He only followed 19 people on X, one of those being Trump

 

Man Who Shot Store Owner for Flying Pride Flag Was a Far-Right Conspiracist

Travis Ikeguchi, 27, shot Laura Ann Carleton, 66, on Friday after “yelling many homophobic slurs” about the store’s pride flag, San Bernardino County Sheriff Shannon Dicus said at a news conference Monday.

When confronted, police said in a press conference, the 27-year-old fired at multiple patrol vehicles with an unregistered semi-automatic handgun before he was shot in what was described by officials as a “lethal force encounter.”

"a review of 27-year-old’s social media accounts on X, the platform formerly known as Twitter, and the far-right social network Gab, show that the shooter had fully embraced a wide range of conspiracy theories—from claiming the 9/11 attacks were staged to suggestions that former first lady Michelle Obama is a man to denying climate change. 

https://www.vice.com/en/article/n7ed4q/laura-carleton-pride-flag-shooting

Now there’s a surprise.

[Baht Simpson]

19 hours ago, n00dle said:

That said extremist rhetoric has brought us to a situation where ANYONE who does not blindly accept LBGTQ rhetoric is demonised.

What extremist LBGTQ rhetoric and how are you being compelled to do anything? 

[Baht Simpson]

5 hours ago, bamnutsak said:

Daddy issues.

 

 

+ Anger issues

+ Far right conspiracy issues

+ Homophobia issues

 

It's a heady mix. You only have see the Maga hat interviews on Tiktok to see that some of them are with him in spirit if not the method of execution. (sic)

 

[ozimoron]

11 minutes ago, Baht Simpson said:

What extremist LBGTQ rhetoric and how are you being compelled to do anything? 

Apparently, merely acknowledging their existence.

[Chomper Higgot]

It’s looking like another example of stochastic terrorism:

 

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-stochastic-terrorism-uses-disgust-to-incite-violence/?amp=true

[jerrymahoney]

Final moments before Pride flag killing emerge, along with disturbing portrait of gunman

Aug. 22, 2023 Updated 4:28 PM PT

According to an acquaintance of Carleton who watched closed-circuit video of the shooting, Ikeguchi seemed to pause in the moment before he shot Carleton, as if considering what he was about to do.

“He then almost flinched as if thinking twice but then went for it, grabbed the gun and then aimed it and shot Lauri,” said the acquaintance, who requested anonymity because the video did not belong to him.

“That caused her to fall back onto the floor, and then the door swung closed, and then he shot one shot through that door and then took off.

 

https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2023-08-22/who-was-travis-ikeguchi-shooter-in-lake-arrowhead-pride-flag-killing

 

https://archive.is/amr74#selection-1263.1-1263.89

[Bkk Brian]

43 minutes ago, jerrymahoney said:

Final moments before Pride flag killing emerge, along with disturbing portrait of gunman

Aug. 22, 2023 Updated 4:28 PM PT

According to an acquaintance of Carleton who watched closed-circuit video of the shooting, Ikeguchi seemed to pause in the moment before he shot Carleton, as if considering what he was about to do.

“He then almost flinched as if thinking twice but then went for it, grabbed the gun and then aimed it and shot Lauri,” said the acquaintance, who requested anonymity because the video did not belong to him.

“That caused her to fall back onto the floor, and then the door swung closed, and then he shot one shot through that door and then took off.

 

https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2023-08-22/who-was-travis-ikeguchi-shooter-in-lake-arrowhead-pride-flag-killing

 

https://archive.is/amr74#selection-1263.1-1263.89

Also from the above:

Carleton was holding a phone when she was shot and never exited her store, according to the acquaintance. 

[jerrymahoney]

10 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Also from the above:

Carleton was holding a phone when she was shot and never exited her store, according to the acquaintance. 

Yes -- so I infer from the 2 above posts that the shooting was pre-meditated.

[Bkk Brian]

Finally, I wondered why it was taking so long even after complaints................

 

X took two days to suspend account of suspect in Pride flag killing

X has suspended an account that posted numerous anti-gay and antisemitic posts and was used by the man accused of killing store owner Lauri Carleton over her display of a Pride Flag.

But the account had remained live two days after law enforcement publicly confirmed its existence on the platform formerly known as Twitter. The social media company finally suspended the account Wednesday evening.

Alejandra Caraballo with the Cyberlaw Clinic at Harvard Law School posted on X Wednesday that she reported the account’s content, but received a reply from the company indicating: “After reviewing the available information, we want to let you know [the account] hasn’t broken our safety policies.”

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/08/23/tech/x-account-pride-flag-killing-suspect/index.html

 

[JonnyF]

On 8/22/2023 at 8:21 PM, JemJem said:

Your reasoning is sadly not much different from that of people who say stuff like 'I am not suggesting she deserved to be raped, but that woman should have known about the potential consequences of wearing skimpy clothing at night in that neighborhood'.

 

Heartless thinking !

 

 

Totally different.

 

This woman involved herself in a tit for tat squabble with strangers by putting up ever larger flags when the offended individuals took them down, even though she knew she was offending them. Then she confronted a person who was in the process of taking it down. She was so convinced that she was right that she didn't care that she was offending people. Some LGBTQ++ activists actually enjoy the fact that it offends people, they revel in it (not saying that's the case here of course but she would certainly have been aware of the fact she was offending people).

 

Did she deserve to be shot? Of course not. That's a ridiculous position to take.

 

Was the confrontation avoidable? Of course. Common sense would tell you that. 

 

What is it the lefties always say when they are trying to close down opposing voices? That freedom of speech does not mean freedom from consequences? Well, sometimes those consequences are not deserved, as in this case. But whether they are deserved or not, consequences are a very real possibility, as this case proves.