Buying a house where land is in Thai name but chanote says foreigner owns the house?

[FritsSikkink]

12 hours ago, MangoKorat said:

There is no problem with buying this property but if the house has a different owner to the land, both owners will have to agree to the sale and there will be two seperate transactions. If the house owner is not present or does not agree to the sale - there can be a problem.

 

Says it all, you own but you actually don't as you are dependent on the land owner.

[JeffersLos]

On 9/5/2023 at 9:30 AM, FritsSikkink said:

If the landowner is Thai, the foreigner doesn't own the house but got a guaranteed rental agreement on it.

Change your name to FritsWrong. Because that is what you are. Wrong. 

 

 

OP. The first port of call should be the land office with the agent and the Thai purchaser, getting confirmation that the land and house can be sold and both can be transferred to the new Thai owner.

 

Listen to the land officers, not the agent. The agent is not your friend, they are there to make money off of you as quickly and easily as possible. 

 

Edited September 6, 2023 by JeffersLos

[advancebooking]

On 9/5/2023 at 9:30 AM, FritsSikkink said:

If the landowner is Thai, the foreigner doesn't own the house but got a guaranteed rental agreement on it.

As long as the foreigner doesn't mind moving out and give up the rental agreement for a certain amount of money, there is no problem.

Rediculous post. Read the thread again. Nothing to do with rental agreements. 

 

Have you ever considered that many farang have citizenship and have thai id card and passport

 

Also, a farang can have a building permit in his/her name and effectively own the house and have superficies on the chanote

[wmlc]

It amazes me how people put millions of baht on the line to buy a house or a condo and are too cheap to seak legal advice to get the right info. Therefore, relying on a bunch of sofa lawyers sitting back in the UK in a pub or a retired guy in Pattaya.that troll the forums when they are bored. For god sake, call a lawyer. 

[sungod]

On 9/5/2023 at 3:31 PM, Brick Top said:

Some experts on here.............

I stopped reading your post after this part ????

 

Use inverted commas next time, we will understand.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 9/5/2023 at 2:49 PM, finnsk said:

I would be sure about the farrang in the house, do he agree to move out, if you buy the house/land ?

You can maube buy a sack of problems.

 

The land owner can sell the land, they do not need to have any accept from the "houseowner". If there is a registred lease contract to the houseowner (registred at the land office)the new land owner shall accept the lease contract, but, but how is things working out in the real life ?

 

If there is a registred leasecontract you must be sure how to get rid of that, there serious legal advice is needed.

 

Remember the agent is only the landsellers man.

Farangs can't buy land.

 

IMO any farang buys a house with land owned by an unknown Thai is daft.

 

[thaibeachlovers]

On 9/5/2023 at 1:29 PM, YaesuBottyLove said:

The agent says that on transfer, 3 parties would need to be present ie. the Thai land owner, the foreign house owner and the buyer (NB. buyer is Thai).

Is the Thai using their own money, or the farang's? Why don't they buy the land as well?

Does the OP understand that if it is his money it's a gift to the Thai, over which he will have no ownership at all?

[YaesuBottyLove]

OP again. Appreciate all the comments.

 

Yes, the purchase covers both land and house.

 

It's a Usufruct apparently. I assume that's no problem so long as the occupier attends the Transfer at the Land Office in person and agrees to their removal from the Chanote.

 

I will be getting a lawyer, regardless.

[ThaiLawOnline]

On 9/5/2023 at 8:49 AM, Shop mak said:

Before you parting with a large amount, seek legal advice.

A company that has foreigner staff, and been around for years is

 

https://isaanlawyers.com/

 

I believe you mean ThaiLawOnline. The manager of Isaan Lawyers has only been there since 2022. I was the manager from 2006 to 2021.  ????

 

Happy to help.

[ThaiLawOnline]

Most people here do not understand what lawyers do. Lawyers are there to protect their clients and prevent problems. Lawyers can surely go to court and ask high fees, but the great lawyers will be the one preventing problems at a lower cost.

 

In theory and practice, a foreigner can own a building and have some rights to the land. In some cases, they may even own the land outright for up to 30 years, such as under the Sap Ing Sith rights.

 

However, in practice, separating the land and house is often not very useful. For example, what happens in the event of a divorce? Even if the couple is not married, a judge could still argue that they had a commercial partnership. And who would really want to buy just a house and not the land?

 

I have tried two or three times to sell a house without the land through the legal execution office. Each time, it was a mess.

 

In reality, your rights to the land will ultimately determine your strength in terms of ownership of the entire property.

 

There are a few ways to protect your rights to the land as a foreigner. One is to obtain superficies, which grants you automatically ownership of the structures on the land (unless married, then half usefully). You can also obtain a building permit in your name. And you can also separate the land and house by making an announcement to that effect.

 

I like to add superficies in lease agreements or even usufruct agreements. Especially when the foreigner is not married and I love to add a MOU. Remember that in civil law, “contracts are the law between the parties”.

 

Let's imagine a couple, where the Thai woman owns the land and the foreign man owns the house. If they never separate, divorce, or have any problems, then they technically do not even need any contracts. However, contracts are there to prevent problems from happening in the first place.

 

Can you see the mess that you could create by separating the house and the land? What if the land owner starts making problems for the house owner? Or what if the house ownership cannot be transferred to another foreigner because they do not have rights to the land? Looks at all options possible and select the one that suits you the best.

 

Yes, consulting a reputable law firm will usually help to clarify these issues. The more money you spend on a property, the more precautions you should take. Unless, of course, you really do not care.

 

I have actually changed my position on usufruct agreements. I was one of the first people to talk about them in 2008. However, my new way to make it  is an addendum to the usufruct agreement. This is because the usufruct contracts issued by the Land Department are not very good and I do not wish to confuse the contract of the land department and the one made by a law firm. I will have to adjust my website. 

 

Law firms that sell templates for 1,000 baht are not being serious. Would you buy a template without any consultation and then try to do it yourself? For  important matters like properties or Last Wills? I don’t think you should not take any chances. A simple consultation with a lawyer and one or two agreements will cost around 10,000 baht, but this is a small price to pay for peace of mind. Of course, if you go with Baker Mackenzie, Tilleke Gibbins, or even Siam-Legal it will cost you 4 times that price.

 

I have seen it all in my 17 years of working with Thai lawyers. I have seen fake Chanotte documents, counterfeit signatures, properties that are not in the name of the wife but the mother, malicious transfers to family members, mortgages or sales with rights of redemption (Kaifak) registered without the spouse's consent, and much more.

 

There are some benefits to separating the land and house, such as tax advantages. However, I rarely see anyone talking about this, not even websites of law firms. Most foreign lawyers were trained in Common Law, and some civil law concepts are quite different.

 

You might find more misinformation or Facebook or forums than good advice.. Posting under nicknames does not help credibility. One member here is obviously someone I know.  

[rumak]

On 9/9/2023 at 5:18 AM, ThaiLawOnline said:

I have seen it all in my 17 years of working with Thai lawyers. I have seen fake Chanotte documents, counterfeit signatures, properties that are not in the name of the wife but the mother, malicious transfers to family members, mortgages or sales with rights of redemption (Kaifak) registered without the spouse's consent, and much more.

Can i have your permission to use those words of yours ?    It will be very useful for me to use on this forum ,  and by adapting it to fit many scenarios , especially "debates"  from members here professing to know the exact truth ...... it will come in handy .

Oh, btw..... please put the permission in writing,  2 copies of each page,  your mother-in-laws maiden name..... and zodiac sign.    Thank you (in advance)    Rumak 

[ThaiLawOnline]

On 9/14/2023 at 6:15 PM, rumak said:

Can i have your permission to use those words of yours ?    It will be very useful for me to use on this forum ,  and by adapting it to fit many scenarios , especially "debates"  from members here professing to know the exact truth ...... it will come in handy .

Oh, btw..... please put the permission in writing,  2 copies of each page,  your mother-in-laws maiden name..... and zodiac sign.    Thank you (in advance)    Rumak 

I am sure that you have plenty of time to lose with 6678 posts on this forum. You must teach everyone about “how it works in Thailand.”. Unfortunately, I do not have the same time to spend useless time debating with the average expat spending time on forums. Thank you Rumak to make me learn these great lessons of life. But I understand that when you are over 70, you probably have less hobbies and need cyberspace friends. 

Edited September 17, 2023 by ThaiLawOnline
Adding a picture

[rumak]

3 hours ago, ThaiLawOnline said:

Thank you Rumak to make me learn these great lessons of life.

You certainly a not a master of the English language , if that sentence is any indication.  Also, a native speaker would (hopefully)  understand that my short post was a lighthearted tongue-in-cheek post, and certainly NOT a dig at you .

Sorry,  i do not have any more time to explain that..... so try to get it. 

And,  have a great day !

 

[quake]

On 9/5/2023 at 10:09 AM, BenStark said:

you're wrong again, but I'm not gonna start a discussion with you, because you are renowned for always claiming to know everything better. Maybe you are Liverpool Lou's brother?

Excellent post. 

[ThaiLawOnline]

On 9/18/2023 at 5:57 AM, rumak said:

You certainly a not a master of the English language , if that sentence is any indication.  Also, a native speaker would (hopefully)  understand that my short post was a lighthearted tongue-in-cheek post, and certainly NOT a dig at you .

Sorry,  i do not have any more time to explain that..... so try to get it. 

And,  have a great day !

 

You are totally right. I am a French native speaker. Speaks also English. Can do some Spanish. Live in Thailand for 19 years, can read and write Thai and I learn Mandarin 2 years while living in China.

 

[ThaiLawOnline]

On 9/5/2023 at 9:49 AM, BenStark said:

Wrong.

 

I own my house, built on land owned by a Thai national.

 

Building license and everything in my personal name, for which the landowner had to give permission.

 

On the land is a mortgage, provided by me, which is registered at the land department, and written on the back of the title deed.

 

If the land ever needs to be sold, which only can be done after the mortgage has been paid to me, the sale has to be announced for 2 weeks at the Orbotor, to ensure that the house is free of any debts.

 

That said, the building is not specified on the chanote, and as far as I'm aware never is.

I can affirm that this is totally possible and only few foreigners do mortgages but it is an excellent way to protect your investment. Well done, including the building permit on your name, which is not easy for a foreigner but can be done.

[rumak]

not worth my time ...........

Edited September 19, 2023 by rumak