Condominium: Who is responsible for the drainpipes which start in my unit and then run along the ceiling from the unit below?

[OneMoreFarang]

The drain on my condominium balcony is clogged.

The pipes goes through my floor to the ceiling of the condominium below. There is a P-Trap and then a long pipe.

I know this because I can see the similar pipe on my ceiling from the unit above.

 

The first 50cm pipe down from my balcony is free. I have no idea if the P-Trap right below that (on the ceiling of the unit below mine) is clogged, or maybe another part of the pipe is clogged.

Yesterday I told the condominium manager, and they sent an inhouse technician. They couldn't see or fix the problem from my unit, so today they plan to visit the unit below and look at the pipe on their ceiling. Maybe they will be able to open the P-Trap at that location.

 

I am wondering who is responsible for finding the problematic area in the pipe and clean it. And what if there is a closed ceiling in the unit below mine and the ceiling has to be opened to access the pipe? Who pays? 

 

And last but not least, I think currently nobody is in the unit below mine. I don't know if the management has a key to the unit. What if the management knows the pipe has a problem, but they can't get into the unit?

[roo860]

4 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

The drain on my condominium balcony is clogged.

The pipes goes through my floor to the ceiling of the condominium below. There is a P-Trap and then a long pipe.

I know this because I can see the similar pipe on my ceiling from the unit above.

 

The first 50cm pipe down from my balcony is free. I have no idea if the P-Trap right below that (on the ceiling of the unit below mine) is clogged, or maybe another part of the pipe is clogged.

Yesterday I told the condominium manager, and they sent an inhouse technician. They couldn't see or fix the problem from my unit, so today they plan to visit the unit below and look at the pipe on their ceiling. Maybe they will be able to open the P-Trap at that location.

 

I am wondering who is responsible for finding the problematic area in the pipe and clean it. And what if there is a closed ceiling in the unit below mine and the ceiling has to be opened to access the pipe? Who pays? 

 

And last but not least, I think currently nobody is in the unit below mine. I don't know if the management has a key to the unit. What if the management knows the pipe has a problem, but they can't get into the unit?

IMHO they have no right to force entry if no key or keyholder is available. 

[scubascuba3]

i would expect the pipe is the responsibility of where the water is coming from, so above. If it was causing a leak below and couldn't contact owner then I'd expect them to break in, what's the alternative? allow a leak to go on indefinitely, obviously not right

[msbkk]

4 minutes ago, scubascuba3 said:

i would expect the pipe is the responsibility of where the water is coming from, so above. If it was causing a leak below and couldn't contact owner then I'd expect them to break in, what's the alternative? allow a leak to go on indefinitely, obviously not right

If the owner cannot be contacted the building will usually close the water supply to the leaking unit. There are valves for this purpose.

[OneMoreFarang]

3 minutes ago, scubascuba3 said:

If it was causing a leak below and couldn't contact owner then I'd expect them to break in, what's the alternative? allow a leak to go on indefinitely, obviously not right

This is a concern.

My unit's drains were not used for some time (because it was empty when I bought it). If the unit below is also empty and there is a leak, then there could be a lot of damage before anybody notices that there is a leak at all.

I guess it is my responsibility to fix a leak and pay for that. But first I have to know that there is a leak. And if nobody tells me because nobody is watching then that can get expensive.

Let's see.

[impulse]

I'd make the case that the pipe is common property and the condo's funds should be used to repair it, before it causes even more damage.  Then, if it's found that one of the parties' negligence caused the problem, the board should seek restitution.

 

Of course they have the authority to enter a property if it's on fire or leaking or... or.

 

I'd be real careful about fixing the leak yourself as you're opening yourself up for a lot of liability if the job goes sideways.

[OneMoreFarang]

1 minute ago, msbkk said:

If the owner cannot be contacted the building will usually close the water supply to the leaking unit. There are valves for this purpose.

That is correct when the water is from the unit itself. Like a bad valve in unit A, water leak in unit A, and the water supply from unit A will be stopped.

 

But in this case there are two different units involved. The water comes from a drain in my balcony (rain water). The pipes goes to the ceiling of the unit below my unit.

There could be a water leak in the below unit. But it would make no difference if they would close the water supply from that unit, because the water comes from my unit above.

And because the water originates from rain to the balcony of my unit it also wouldn't work to cut my water. Because the water comes from the rain. 

Closing the drain in my unit is also no option, the rainwater has to go somewhere. 

[LS24]

There is a semi flexible tool to assist with blocked drains. I know them as Drain Snakes. That should be used if access from below is not possible. If access is possible there should be direct access to the P trap as you mentioned. From what I have seen in most condos that I've visited in Thailand, there is usually a simple suspended / dropped ceiling in the wet areas to allow access to the drainage / plumbing for the unit above.

 

Good luck with the fix.

[OneMoreFarang]

2 minutes ago, impulse said:

I'd be real careful about fixing the leak yourself as you're opening yourself up for a lot of liability if the job goes sideways.

Yes, that is what I thought.

This is why I didn't hire a plumber myself, but I contacted the building management. 

[scubascuba3]

2 minutes ago, impulse said:

I'd make the case that the pipe is common property and the condo's funds should be used to repair it,

The House rules \ condo doc should specify common areas, I've not noticed pipes being mentioned in mine

[impulse]

9 minutes ago, scubascuba3 said:

The House rules \ condo doc should specify common areas, I've not noticed pipes being mentioned in mine

There's a difference between common areas and common property.

 

[scubascuba3]

42 minutes ago, impulse said:

There's a difference between common areas and common property.

 

Yes, should be in the Condo docs, no? why would common areas be specified and not common property?

[Delight]

Co owners are responsible for that part of the building as detailed on the individual Condominium Title Deeds.

if it not on there -then the management have to organise a fix.

[OneMoreFarang]

Another example: When I bought my condominium, I thought about replacing the freshwater pipes in the unit. But then I thought it would be even better if I replace the pipes in my unit and also outside my unit, the pipes between the water meter and my condominium. In my case that is maybe 5 meter in the corridor.

I asked my management at that time and they allowed me to change the pipes also in the corridor up to the water meter. So I guess those are "my pipes", even if they are in the common area.

[JBChiangRai]

This exact thing happened 15 years ago at my condo building in Pattaya.

 

It was found that leaves had blocked the drain when it was cleared.  The condo owner was found responsible for the costs because he could be reasonably expected to keep the drains on his balcony clear.

[transam]

If you pay an annual maintenance fee, surely the onus is on the owner of the building....????

[bkkcanuck8]

On 9/15/2023 at 10:01 AM, scubascuba3 said:

The House rules \ condo doc should specify common areas, I've not noticed pipes being mentioned in mine

Exactly, the documentation that you should get in the purchase should deliniate what is inside your unit or outside (it depends).  What is yours should be clearly indicated as the property boundary.  If it is not identified, then you (OP) should probably have a lawyer contact the corporation to get it clearly identified.  As far as leaks damaging related properties, you (OP) probably should have insurance of some sort to cover it in any case. 

[HauptmannUK]

My wife owns a few condos in the Pattaya area and occasionally has minor problems like this.  One very similar case like yours happened this year..

She was in UK and received an email (with attached video file) saying water was leaking from her condo onto the ceiling of the condo below and dripping into their living room (video to show it).

She contacted her tenant and organised for condo maintenance to visit her condo.

Turns out that there was a fracture in the base concrete of the balcony (where the balcony rail uprights bolted to the floor). Rainwater was running from her balcony into the ceiling void below.

Repairing the balcony was the responsibility of the condo office (no cost to her).

Damage to the ceiling of the condo below was the responsibility of the owner of that condo (no cost to my wife).  It seems that in Thailand water leaks into a condo are treated as an 'act of God' - unless negligence on the part of another owner can be shown.

 

[scorecard]

On 9/15/2023 at 9:20 AM, roo860 said:

IMHO they have no right to force entry if no key or keyholder is available. 

OK, but suely they do have a responsibility to contact the owner and ask for a key or ask the owner to come to the condo and let the technician in. 

[bkkcanuck8]

29 minutes ago, scorecard said:

OK, but suely they do have a responsibility to contact the owner and ask for a key or ask the owner to come to the condo and let the technician in. 

The only condo I owned, the condo corporation has rights defined in the documents - that if there is an emergency and no one is contactable... and that emergency does or will affect other unit holders or the corporation... they can enter.  Of course in Thailand, I don't know what the rules are... in Thailand or this condo (OP).  In my condo the locks installed in the unit were done at construction and the condo corporation had a secure box that held the keys and those keys could be accessed with another key to open the box and log it.  The condo corporation would then fill in a form and detailed entry and the reasons why it and that was left inside the unit.  If you changed locks, you were responsible for leaving one key with the condo corporation.

Edited September 16, 2023 by bkkcanuck8

[roo860]

16 minutes ago, scorecard said:

OK, but suely they do have a responsibility to contact the owner and ask for a key or ask the owner to come to the condo and let the technician in. 

Absolutely 

[MrJ2U]

On 9/15/2023 at 9:20 AM, roo860 said:

IMHO they have no right to force entry if no key or keyholder is available. 

Wouldn't they have an entry key for emergency's?

 

Most condos require that. 

 

I'm sure the owner would prefer that than a flooded unit. 

 

There should be an agent or contact number just for situations like this in any case. 

[OneMoreFarang]

Thanks for all your comments.

I had another look at the blocked drain, and I used a vacuum cleaner (which can handle lots of water) to clean it up a little. Then I was able to drain a couple of buckets of water through the drain. The water didn't flow down fast, but fast enough to handle possible rainwater in that area.

Then I talked to the management. It seems nobody is in the unit below my unit, and it seems they have no contact details from the owner.

I suggested to the management that it would be good that they somehow check the pipes in the unit below mine. Because if there is now a small problem, I don't want that it becomes a big problem because nobody is watching. Let's see.

In the next days I will also talk to one committee member who I know well. He should be able to clarify the situation. Another Let's see.

[scubascuba3]

21 minutes ago, MrJ2U said:

Wouldn't they have an entry key for emergency's?

 

Most condos require that. 

I don't think that's correct, certainly not in my condo

[impulse]

Just now, scubascuba3 said:

I don't think that's correct, certainly not in my condo

So what happens if your toaster starts smoking when you're away?

 

 

[scubascuba3]

2 minutes ago, impulse said:

So what happens if your toaster starts smoking when you're away?

 

 

Probably break in. Some condo blocks have thousands of units, you think the office keeps thousands of keys?

 

When people are away or selling they may leave keys with the office

[OneMoreFarang]

56 minutes ago, MrJ2U said:

Wouldn't they have an entry key for emergency's?

 

Most condos require that. 

 

I'm sure the owner would prefer that than a flooded unit. 

 

There should be an agent or contact number just for situations like this in any case. 

In theory I agree with you that is should be like that.

But let's not forget that this is Thailand.

I live in a building which is over 20 years old. Even if someone collected keys initially, how many people changed their locks in the last 20 years and gave a new key to the management?

The management in my building also changed. The new management discovered that the old managers kept the contact information from the owners personally. Old managers gone, no contact information anymore. Somehow, I would be surprised if that is not more or less normal in Thailand.

I definitely would not expect an organized storage of hundreds of keys. 

I certainly won't give them a key. I have a smart-lock. ???? 

[bkkcanuck8]

45 minutes ago, scubascuba3 said:

Probably break in. Some condo blocks have thousands of units, you think the office keeps thousands of keys?

 

When people are away or selling they may leave keys with the office

The condo I owned had 400 and they had keys for all (don't know if there was a master key for phases or 400 keys - 5 phases to the condo - loft conversion).  They had access to every unit on sale, you did not have to give your key to them... but if you changed it I believe you were responsible for handing them a key.  When I had maintenance being done all I had to do was fill out a form for non-emergencies - but emergencies they would be able to access it.  I had on several occassions document indicating entry and exactly when they entered, when they left, and reasons for entry and a list of things done if they did anything.

 

It was the only condo in the city at that point that had to the unit gas (for fireplaces, but I also had a Wolf gas range) as well... and some of the condo defined property was only accessable through entering a unit.  

 

When I was selling it I just had building maintenance fix up a few things (for a fee since it was not common property) and he did not need me to give him a key.  In that case since it was not an emergency, I filled out permission to enter for maintenance.

Edited September 16, 2023 by bkkcanuck8

[chilly07]

You are! 

Manager can change the locks to gain access 

[JBChiangRai]

It all depends whether your balcony is yours or common area.

 

If it’s yours then you are responsible for anything that goes down it and causes a blockage.  Whether through action, or inaction (ie not removing leaves).

 

Think about it this way, let’s assume the balcony is yours and it’s blocked with cigarette butts, of course you’re responsible, now what’s the difference if it’s blocked with leaves because you never cleared them out every time they got there, it’s still your responsibility.