Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part I

[Thorgal]

13 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

Those happily married to a Thai national can transfer (in this case from abroad) to their spouse up to THB 20 million in value per calendar year tax free as a gift.

That's an incitement to a lot of divorces... 

[chang50]

3 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Folksies -- it's been said before but at this stage both don't panic and don't conclude this won't hit you.

We all need to WAIT!

It's as simple as that.

This situation is in process.

We've heard countries with anti double taxation treaties won't be effected by this, but alas we haven't seen anything close to final language yet!

We know what makes you a tax resident in Thailand NOW, but we don't know if they'll change that.

There is no logical reason to jump to any conclusions, positive or negative, at this time,

100 Percent the best thing to do however easier said than done!

[jaideedave]

15 hours ago, mran66 said:

...don't forget that I recall it was Mr Big Joke who was behind changing the retirement visa requirement from "800k for 2mo" to "800k for 2+3 mo + 400k for 7mo".

 

As far as I can see, the primary if not only reason for that change was to encourage more retirees to skip the legal route, and get the 10+k bribe per renewal to immigration officers.

 

Seems Big Joke still thinks too many people skipping the agency approach, and sticking to legal way, thus he need to increase the requirements further to get more people to bribe the immigration staff and forget the bank approach

You are on point with that statement.I've been saying that for years.Agent income is very lucrative and off the books.They get no backhanders for doing it by the book. An office girl next door to Jomtien asked for a 10k fee for something I wanted done a few years ago.She told me the imm guys only gave here 1k for her cut.This last bit of news and confusion will no doubt cause the agent fees to increase.

TBH I pay the agent fees and consider it the cost of doing business here (Visa wise)

TIT 

[Yumthai]

12 minutes ago, thaibreaker said:

Do that, and your marriage might not be so happily ever after..

Just sayin'.

 

3 minutes ago, Thorgal said:

That's an incitement to a lot of divorces... 

 

It all depends on who you are married to. If you can't trust your partner that's indeed an issue.

 

 

[GeorgeCross]

4 minutes ago, Thorgal said:

That's an incitement to a lot of divorces... 

its "up to" not 20M only

 

send your wife her housekeeping + beer money every week if you want!

 

[El Matador]

I think retirees should read carefully their tax treaty because it can change a lot depending on the country. Some will focus more on dividend income. Others on rent income or pension income to avoid double taxation. I guess US retirees are safe because they have to pay taxes wherever they go.

 

The new law will focus mainly on offshore activities made by Thai national who could enjoy tax free business by transfering the money to Thailand the following year.

 

But it could be possible that retirees, as most of them spend more than 6 months in Thailand, may have to do a proper Thai tax declaration for their worldwide income (as most countries do) with deduction for exempted income which has already been taxed according to the tax treaty. Have to see all the details, but if there is no proper specification in the tax treaty, an income which has not been taxed yet could now be taxed in Thailand, or you could also pay the difference if the tax in Thailand is higher in some cases. It might be a mess if they go this way. Just speculation though.

[JimGant]

Wow, what a bunch of misconceptions on this thread. First and foremost, this new rule is not about the timing of cash flow (or no cash flow) from abroad, to Thai tax residents. It's about taxing income earned abroad. Period. And before today's FATCA and CRS reporting avenues, plus similar worldwide financial reporting processes, incoming cash flow was the only method of identifying income. And if that was next year, yes, you could make a rule exempting such cash flow from taxation.

 

No more. Now, with all this financial information sharing, you can identify income earned abroad by Thai tax residents.  And it would make no difference if remitted next year, this year -- or never -- because it's in the worldwide data base as income. Period. Why care when remitted.....? So, the Thai gov't has finally gotten smart on collecting taxes, courtesy of modern data collection methods.

 

So, no need to monitor the source of cash flows coming into Thailand -- not that this could ever be cost effective. So, farang retirees, quit worrying about the Thai gov't wondering about the source of your 65k baht monthly remittances.

 

Not sure why countries with DTA's would be exempted..... As a Yank, my Air Force and Social Security checks are exempt from Thai taxes, per treaty. However, if I had a pension from Boeing, or even my IRA payout, the DTA says that Thailand has first dibs on taxing this income. And it would make sense, that if Thailand could discover this in the FATCA data base, that they would knock on my door and ask why I hadn't declared this income in a Thai tax return.....  Today, of course, I could just say this money was sent from my savings account, co-mingled with other funds -- so it's from last year. The new rule, of course, would end this charade.

 

But, as a Yank, if the Thais taxed my Boeing pension, and my IRA -- and since I have to also declare this income in my US tax return (due to the "saving clause" in the DTA) -- I would just take a credit for this Thai tax. And break even. Thus, nothing to worry about re additional taxes with this new proposed Thai tax law.

 

Now, for those farangs who somehow no longer pay taxes to their mother country -- and haven't paid taxes to Thailand due to the next year remittance policy -- welcome to today's world of CRS reporting: Thai taxes may be in your future.

[scorecard]

5 hours ago, GeorgeCross said:

i believe you are required by law to register with the tax office if you are liable to pay taxes and as pensions are covered under section 40 as an income you will all have to. hope i'm wrong as my local bars will get even lonelier, but thats my reading.

 

 

Is Section 40 and it's contents applicable to Thai citizens only or all people residing in Thailand?

[RafPinto]

I think a few "Youtubers" are getting nervous.
I don't talk about the tourists who come and take videos. 
I talk about the professionals who live here full time and their income is from Youtube.
They live here and produce only videos from Thailand.
Double problem for them.

First: do they have a work permit? I doubt.
Second: There income is generated in Thailand. No work permit and not paying any tax here.
I was already a long time wondering how they get away with it. Not talking about Billie who has 15 followers and doesn't make 1 Baht. I am talking about the professionals with hundred thousands of followers and making decent money. There are quite a few out there. Easy to find.

 

 

Then there are the thai women who are sponsored on a monthly basis by one or a few farangs and making 50-100k a month.

Interesting times ahead.

[GeorgeCross]

4 minutes ago, scorecard said:

Is Section 40 and it's contents applicable to Thai citizens only or all people residing in Thailand?

think it applies to all tax residents, thai or foreign but not sure it was only my take.

 

here's the link you can try read yourself f you want:

https://www.rd.go.th/english/37749.html

[Startmeup]

32 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Jumping in on this issue and raising a related one - it seems to me getting and providing a Tax ID number to their Thai Bank/s might be a wise thing to do for an Expat.  In Aust if you dont provide your tax number (TFN) to a bank, they will tax all your interest earned at the highest rate, but if you give them a TFN thery apply no tax and merely report your earnings and balance to the Taxation Office.  Then it is up to you to declare the interest as income in your tax return.   Perhaps they follow the same/similar process here in Thai Banks - anyone know?

 

Yes, the same as far as I know and this was the reason I used at the Tax office to obtain my Tax ID while still being on a tourist visa. With the help of a local because they had no English in there in Bangkok and/or didn't want to speak it.

[RafPinto]

Government in desperate need of cash.
Election promises about 10k and min. salary of 400BAHT/day

 

From tomorrow, Diesel price going down plus electricity will be subsidied.
Where does the money come from?

Did they have a look at oil prices?
A few months ago, Brent was 72$ and now again at 95$ a barrel.
They spend money like crazy but no plan how to finance it.

 

This new Elite visa will be a joke.
Who pays 900k-5 million Baht and still has to pay taxes here.

Exports not doing well.
Tourism not doing well. Constantly begging that Chinese, Kasak people, Indians and Russians please come and bail them out.
Those countries have their own problems.

Be prepared: my guess is that deposit on Non-immigrant O/O-A visas will go up well above 1 million Baht.
And just a question of when and not if that Non O will also have to get a Thai private Health insurance.

 

Not: the good ones in and the bad ones out.
Will be: the rich ones in and the average ones out.

[jaideedave]

5 hours ago, gamb00ler said:

I suggest you consider opening a Charles Schwab International account.  If the fees are the same as for US nationals, they're quite low.  Canadian banks are definitely fee heavy.

A quick look at your suggestion yielded this: Schwab currently cannot open accounts for residents of your country/region. Please check back with us in the future. 

[Dogmatix]

3 hours ago, freeworld said:

No Thailand does not tax savings, only income. Of course there should be a trail which could show that it is savings.

Yes, but where do savings come from?  Past earnings from employment, from investment, from inheritance, from gifts.  All are now deemed taxable income when remitted to Thailand with no time limit on when they arose. In fact overseas inheritance is taxable in Thailand, even if not remitted to the country.  The new RD interpretation of the existing Revenue Code says "income earned in any tax year which means that they can go back as many years as they like to the point that the savings were first accumulated.  Then they can tax the interest.

[Thaindrew]

12 minutes ago, Dogmatix said:

Yes, but where do savings come from?  Past earnings from employment, from investment, from inheritance, from gifts.  All are now deemed taxable income when remitted to Thailand with no time limit on when they arose. In fact overseas inheritance is taxable in Thailand, even if not remitted to the country.  The new RD interpretation of the existing Revenue Code says "income earned in any tax year which means that they can go back as many years as they like to the point that the savings were first accumulated.  Then they can tax the interest.

but only if you bring those monies to Thailand right, whatever that means, sure they can track bank transfers, but atm withdrawals, credit card payments etc could they get into that much detail?

 

[Thaindrew]

20 minutes ago, RafPinto said:

Government in desperate need of cash.
Election promises about 10k and min. salary of 400BAHT/day

 

From tomorrow, Diesel price going down plus electricity will be subsidied.
Where does the money come from?

Did they have a look at oil prices?
A few months ago, Brent was 72$ and now again at 95$ a barrel.
They spend money like crazy but no plan how to finance it.

 

This new Elite visa will be a joke.
Who pays 900k-5 million Baht and still has to pay taxes here.

Exports not doing well.
Tourism not doing well. Constantly begging that Chinese, Kasak people, Indians and Russians please come and bail them out.
Those countries have their own problems.

Be prepared: my guess is that deposit on Non-immigrant O/O-A visas will go up well above 1 million Baht.
And just a question of when and not if that Non O will also have to get a Thai private Health insurance.

 

Not: the good ones in and the bad ones out.
Will be: the rich ones in and the average ones out.

correct re the Thai Elite Visa, I am considering withdrawing my 15 years "extension" and just staying in Thailand 179 days a year as a result of this new interpretation. It was costing me 500k to extend and I am considering cancelling so you can think what those paying much more may think

[Ben Zioner]

58 minutes ago, jaideedave said:

An office girl next door to Jomtien asked for a 10k fee for something I wanted done

You didn't have the time to go to soi 6?

 

[RupertIII]

39 minutes ago, Dogmatix said:

Yes, but where do savings come from?  Past earnings from employment, from investment, from inheritance, from gifts.  All are now deemed taxable income when remitted to Thailand with no time limit on when they arose. In fact overseas inheritance is taxable in Thailand, even if not remitted to the country.  The new RD interpretation of the existing Revenue Code says "income earned in any tax year which means that they can go back as many years as they like to the point that the savings were first accumulated.  Then they can tax the interest.

Inheritance tax rates

If the inheritance received has a value exceeding THB 100 million, only the portion that exceeds THB 100 million will be taxed. The inheritance tax rates for the exceeding amount are: 5% inheritance tax for parents and descendants. 10% inheritance tax for other heirs.

https://www.google.com/search?q=thai+inheritance+tax&oq=thai+inheritance+tax&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOdIBCDcxMDNqMGoxqAIAsAIA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

[NoDisplayName]

6 hours ago, Thaindrew said:

china also taxing global income now if you are there more than 180 days, that why I moved to Thailand.

When did that start?

I lived there for almost 15 years, returned last year.

Never asked about income outside of China when I went to district revenue office for tax documents needed to send salary out via SWIFT,

[NoDisplayName]

6 hours ago, Joebuzzz said:

I for one, can assure you, I'd be outta here.  I've already been considering leaving so this would just be a final nail in the coffin.

I posted before, we'll just have to wait and see.  But that doesn't mean we shouldn't prepare for the worst case.  I'm gonna make a plan for when I get punched in the face.

 

Will be extending permission to stay this week, will get a single re-entry.  Will spend the next two months getting things in order, doing some research.  Think I'll spend a couple months in Cambodia, rent a studio in Siem Reap, explore the temples, see what it's like longer term in one location.

 

I'll have a single re-entry.  Either come back to stay, or come back to leave.

[phetphet]

4 hours ago, RupertIII said:

Today's update in the Thai Enquirer, seems not just us foreigners that are concerned about all this, in particular the lack of clarity surrounding it.

https://www.thaienquirer.com/50755/opinion-thailands-ambitious-plan-to-tax-incoming-funds-risks-falling-flat-due-to-lack-of-clarity/

Just like the badly thought out cannabis laws. No forethought on what unforeseen consequences might possibly occur.

[NoDisplayName]

2 minutes ago, Thaindrew said:

it started about 2 years ago, maybe a little more, you are obliged to declare it but if they don't ask they don't ask. I have a HK company with an office in Ningbo if I stayed beyond 180 days I was obliged to pay tax on my HK earnings as I dot have to pay tax in HK as a non-resident there. Paying tax to the Chinese Govt in return for nothing didn't sit well so I moved to Phuket.

Hong Kong is China, so I wouldn't consider that global income.

Were you required to declare and pay tax on income from outside China?

[Thaindrew]

9 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

Hong Kong is China, so I wouldn't consider that global income.

Were you required to declare and pay tax on income from outside China?

HK is not considered part of China for tax purposes, you can see for example that Thailand has DTA agreements with both separately.

 

If I stayed in China more than 180 days I would have had to declare my HK income for tax assessment in China. I got out before my obligation commenced initially spending less than 180 days there and now I just do a few business trips back there each year which is easy enough as I still have a valid resident permit

[NoDisplayName]

1 minute ago, Thaindrew said:

HK is not considered part of China for tax purposes, you can see for example that Thailand has DTA agreements with both separately.

 

If I stayed in China more than 180 days I would have had to declare my HK income for tax assessment in China. I got out before my obligation commenced initially spending less than 180 days there and now I just do a few business trips back there each year which is easy enough as I still have a valid resident permit

Okay, I understand.

China is assimilating Hong Kong into the mainland.

There is still no requirement to file tax returns claiming outside income.

China has not joined the exclusive global taxation club.

[BobBKK]

The original article does not mention pensions but 3 categories?

three groups: individuals involved in foreign stock market trading via overseas brokerages, cryptocurrency traders, and Thais who have previously utilised a tax loophole to bring foreign income into the country tax-free after holding it in an offshore account for over a year."

[Thaindrew]

3 minutes ago, BobBKK said:

The original article does not mention pensions but 3 categories?

three groups: individuals involved in foreign stock market trading via overseas brokerages, cryptocurrency traders, and Thais who have previously utilised a tax loophole to bring foreign income into the country tax-free after holding it in an offshore account for over a year."

yep thats an article from a news site, its not an official translation of the re interpretation of the law by the RD

[vibration]

2 hours ago, Yumthai said:

Those happily married to a Thai national can transfer (in this case from abroad) to their spouse up to THB 20 million in value per calendar year tax free as a gift.

Many thanks for sharing this as it was something I was not aware of, is it possible that you can document this and many thanks in advance.

[freeworld]

2 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Nail on the head hit.  Because of the very strong likelihood of 'errors of interpretation' by Thai Revenue Dept Officers and/or Thai Banks, this is a massive issue for Expats in Thailand.  If it is not cleared up quickly and clearly, with the Thai Govt publicly stating that Expat's pensions and savings will not be taxed, the obvious reality is that they will be taxed.  Even if the Thai Govt did not intend that to happen, there will very likely occur situations where Expats incoming funds are 'taxed' - and the Expat will have to prove to the satisfaction of the Thai Revenue Officer (or Thai Bank Officer) that the funds were taxed in the country of origin in the previous years - which in many cases will be even more impossible than getting the owners/CEO of a foreign health insurance company to certify that their policy meets the Thai Immigration requirements (remember that??).  

 

If I bring over 5-10 million baht to buy a property, will the Thai Bank 'withhold' 30% as potential due tax?

Will the Thai Revenue Dept demand I prove the funds were taxed in order to have them released?

There are so many other potential issues/problems - and they are potentially very big ones.

 

The fact that this has happened and none in the Thai Govt has stated anything yet, gives me pause to reconsider whether living here long term is a good idea. Malaysia (Penang) is looking good right now - Plan B.

''If I bring over 5-10 million baht to buy a property, will the Thai Bank 'withhold' 30% as potential due tax?''

 

The thai bank will not tax it, why would they. Taxes are paid on income and taxes are managed by tax offices. For such a large amount the bank may ask questions and report it to the tax office. After that it is up to you and the tax office to prove that the income is savings and if the taxes have been paid if it was required.

[whiteman]

Might be a few that will go dark after 1st Jan and not go to the immigration Depatments ever again. no more 90 days or 3 months showing your 800k is still there.

Yearly renewal retirement visa not bothering.  Many things to now think about. BUY Gold cash it in when needed for cash to live on. Many more older overstayers.

Time will tell

[Thaindrew]

1 minute ago, whiteman said:

Might be a few that will go dark after 1st Jan and not go to the immigration Depatments ever again. no more 90 days or 3 months showing your 800k is still there.

Yearly renewal retirement visa not bothering.  Many things to now think about. BUY Gold cash it in when needed for cash to live on. Many more older overstayers.

Time will tell

guess many will reduce their time to less than 180 days and Thailand will lose half the money that those individuals used to spend here, and also lose the money currently spent on long term visas such as with Thailand Elite, why pay 0.9m baht up to 5m baht when staying here on the visa for over 180 days is going to cost you in tax