KhunLA Posted October 24, 2023 Share Posted October 24, 2023 People need to simply add their country to the below & google: EX: "USA taxation convention with Thailand" For Yanks & USA, Article 20 will interest you, if receiving Social Security. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cyclist Posted October 24, 2023 Share Posted October 24, 2023 Just now, KhunLA said: People need to simply add their country to the below & google: EX: "USA taxation convention with Thailand" For Yanks & USA, Article 20 will interest you, if receiving Social Security. Excerpts from both the US and UK DTA have been posted. Makes no difference to the sky is falling in crew. They are all mates of Ekniti Nitithanprapas, have coffee with him on a daily basis and he fills them in on whats happening 😂😂 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bamnutsak Posted October 24, 2023 Share Posted October 24, 2023 51 minutes ago, KhunLA said: For Yanks & USA, Article 20 will interest you, if receiving Social Security. Thanks for this. Regarding Annuities... Article 20 says: Annuities derived and beneficially owned by a resident of a Contracting State shall be taxable only in that State. While the terms are defined in Article 3: "a Contracting State" and "the other Contracting State" mean the United States or Thailand, as the context requires; If my Annuity is derived in the U.S., is that the Contracting State? Or is Thailand the Contracting State? I infer that Social Security is taxable only in the U.S.? And not taxable in Thailand? Is that correct? Notwithstanding the provisions of paragraph 1, social security benefits and other similar public pensions paid by a Contracting State to a resident of the other Contracting State or a citizen of the United States shall be taxable only in the first-mentioned State. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogmatix Posted October 24, 2023 Share Posted October 24, 2023 19 hours ago, The Cyclist said: What is the purpose of a DTA, and by extension, specific items covered in the DTA ? UK State Pension have been covered repeatedly, as has Government Pensions. Just for a laugh, lets play the doom and gloom game, even though the UK State Pension is not specifically covered by the DTA, who says Thailand is going to tax UK State Pensions ? Do you have written confirmation from the DTA headshed ? After all, if they can decide to tax rental income ( tax paid in the UK ) they can also decide not to tax UK State Pensions, if they so choose. Yet again I have to repeat myself. Best wait until the DTA confirms what exactly comes under assessable income, before getting knickers twisted and doing yourself damage. The purpose of a DTA is to prevent double taxation. That can be interpreted as we tax this and you don't touch it, or it can be that you tax it first and and, if our tax rate is more, we'll take the difference. The latter is what happens to Americans working overseas. If the US tax rate is more, Uncle Sam will have the difference. So why not Thailand? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cyclist Posted October 24, 2023 Share Posted October 24, 2023 (edited) 40 minutes ago, Dogmatix said: The purpose of a DTA is to prevent double taxation. Thank you. That was all I wanted to know. I don't really need if's, could's or might's thrown in. Edited October 24, 2023 by The Cyclist typo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noobexpat Posted October 24, 2023 Share Posted October 24, 2023 1 minute ago, The Cyclist said: Thank you. That was all I wanted to know. I don't really need would"s, could's or might's thrown in. Actually the purpose of a DTA is to establish who has taxing rights. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noobexpat Posted October 24, 2023 Share Posted October 24, 2023 43 minutes ago, Dogmatix said: The purpose of a DTA is to prevent double taxation. Thats hopefully the end result, but its not their actual purpose. At the back of them, its says that both countries are open to a complaints/mediation procedure (in the event that both feel they have the right to tax). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KhunLA Posted October 24, 2023 Share Posted October 24, 2023 1 hour ago, bamnutsak said: If my Annuity is derived in the U.S., is that the Contracting State? Or is Thailand the Contracting State? I infer that Social Security is taxable only in the U.S.? And not taxable in Thailand? Is that correct? Yes, I read both of those as non taxable by TH. 1 hour ago, Dogmatix said: The purpose of a DTA is to prevent double taxation. That can be interpreted as we tax this and you don't touch it, or it can be that you tax it first and and, if our tax rate is more, we'll take the difference. The latter is what happens to Americans working overseas. If the US tax rate is more, Uncle Sam will have the difference. So why not Thailand? That would be income, and taxable, whether by which, don't know, or care. USA Soc Sec is specific in the convention, and taxed only in the USA. It comes into to TH, designated from Fed Reserve as SS on TH banks Credit Advice, so non taxable by TH. READ THE CONVENTION LINKD ABOVE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huberthammer Posted October 24, 2023 Share Posted October 24, 2023 On 10/17/2023 at 10:33 AM, bugger bognor said: I predicted a 100 pages of <deleted>e and I was right I'm now predicting 200 pages by December it's comical to me I will say it again 99.9 % Of expats won't be paying any tax none! You are deluded if you think any different it will take years or even a decade to produce legislation to implement a complex minefield of regulations globally tens of thousands of documents would have to be drawn up, so far 2 paragraphs by an advisory board has got you in a frenzy nothing is going to change just like your weekly pledge to stop drinking or bargirl hunting so get over it and back on the piss let's assume it will take 10 years and as part of their random choice they pick you do see how your tax situation is and they present you with the bill for taxes which in their opinion you had not paid for the last 10 year. you might be in a proper frenzy. even worse when they tell you that they freeze your assets because they don't agree with your assessment that you are part of the 99.9% who should not pay tax. It will be nice to live a happy life for 10 years and be deluded that this has nothing to do with you. however, the day of reckoning will come. I have heard and seen it before in so called developed countries and i have no doubt it will end in the similar tears here. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burner2014 Posted October 24, 2023 Share Posted October 24, 2023 Crazy that we are now at 119 pages 😄 this topic is quite important for a lot of people here. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hotandsticky Posted October 24, 2023 Share Posted October 24, 2023 1 minute ago, huberthammer said: let's assume it will take 10 years and as part of their random choice they pick you do see how your tax situation is and they present you with the bill for taxes which in their opinion you had not paid for the last 10 year. you might be in a proper frenzy. even worse when they tell you that they freeze your assets because they don't agree with your assessment that you are part of the 99.9% who should not pay tax. It will be nice to live a happy life for 10 years and be deluded that this has nothing to do with you. however, the day of reckoning will come. I have heard and seen it before in so called developed countries and i have no doubt it will end in the similar tears here. Nope...... I am still not scared. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Des1 Posted October 24, 2023 Share Posted October 24, 2023 5 hours ago, JimTripper said: another great guess! While there are certainly many questions about this taxation issue, taking the time to research the tax treaties and providing that information, does not constitute a “guess”. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redwood1 Posted October 24, 2023 Share Posted October 24, 2023 4 minutes ago, burner2014 said: Crazy that we are now at 119 pages 😄 this topic is quite important for a lot of people here. And the Thais can't be azzed to say any more about things than ONE whopping press release.....lol A simple thing as buying a useless sub took 6 years before they scraped it....This tax thing is hugely massively more complex than buying a sub.... So forget the tax....It will never happen... 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guavaman Posted October 24, 2023 Share Posted October 24, 2023 2 hours ago, bamnutsak said: Regarding Annuities... Article 20 says: Annuities derived and beneficially owned by a resident of a Contracting State shall be taxable only in that State. While the terms are defined in Article 3: "a Contracting State" and "the other Contracting State" mean the United States or Thailand, as the context requires; If my Annuity is derived in the U.S., is that the Contracting State? Or is Thailand the Contracting State? Legal language: The key word here is resident, so if the owner who derives benefits from the annuity resides in a Contracting State (either the US or Thailand), the annuity is taxable only in that State (where s/he is a tax resident). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puccini Posted October 24, 2023 Share Posted October 24, 2023 11 hours ago, paddypower said: if things go sour, hope you're young enough to move. or go NR. we're on Retirement visa extensions since 1996, so a bit over the hill to consider going NR. NR? What is that? 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimTripper Posted October 24, 2023 Share Posted October 24, 2023 13 hours ago, paddypower said: if things go sour, hope you're young enough to move. or go NR. we're on Retirement visa extensions since 1996, so a bit over the hill to consider going NR. why? just get a hotel and look for a new place. unless you are mobility impaired it does not really matter how old you are. if you're just of moving i can understand that, but that can happen at any age. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRG23 Posted October 24, 2023 Share Posted October 24, 2023 Looking for new information about this... Has the government issued any new information following the initial announcements? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lister Posted October 24, 2023 Share Posted October 24, 2023 2 minutes ago, JRG23 said: Looking for new information about this... Has the government issued any new information following the initial announcements? No, and it is likely to be a while. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Karma80 Posted October 25, 2023 Popular Post Share Posted October 25, 2023 41 minutes ago, JRG23 said: Looking for new information about this... Has the government issued any new information following the initial announcements? None. Hence the speculation. It's one thing to send out a memo; it's quite another to change the law or obtain a ruling in the tax court. In typical Thai style, we could end up with nothing being clarified and things just being a mess for a couple of years as the waters get tested. Shame really. Thailand was the beneficiary of a lot of money which will stay offshore, and not just from expats. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bamnutsak Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 12 hours ago, Guavaman said: Legal language: The key word here is resident, so if the owner who derives benefits from the annuity resides in a Contracting State (either the US or Thailand), the annuity is taxable only in that State (where s/he is a tax resident). Thanks. Would the annuity need to be remitted to Thailand in order to be assessable income? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lorry Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 3 hours ago, JRG23 said: Looking for new information about this... Has the government issued any new information following the initial announcements? No. Guavaman has posted British rules of remittance-based taxation, a couple of pages up. Someone else mentioned that Japan also has remittance-based taxation, but I have no idea of their rules. The British rules make an interesting read. Most ideas to avoid taxes mentioned in this thread wouldn't be acceptable in Britain. Unfortunately, the Thai ruling class is very familiar with Britain (and Japan). Of course, many things described in the British rules are hard to prove, even in Britain. But tax evasion hoping that the facts will not come to light is very dangerous. What they cannot prove now, maybe they can prove in 7 years? Remember Al Capone. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yumthai Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 19 minutes ago, Lorry said: Remember Al Capone. If Al Capone was Thai Capone and things had happened in Thailand at that time, I suspect he will have never been to jail enjoying an easy and long life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheAppletons Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 12 hours ago, Yumthai said: If Al Capone was Thai Capone and things had happened in Thailand at that time, I suspect he will have never been to jail enjoying an easy and long life. If Al Capone was Thai Capone he would have been made Prime Minister. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paddypower Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 14 hours ago, Puccini said: NR? What is that? non resident (we use it in Canada tax law and I believe that it will be used here, as a qualifying clause to determine if your pension and any other foreign income your bring into Thailand is taxable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paddypower Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 57 minutes ago, TheAppletons said: If Al Capone was Thai Capone he would have been made Prime Minister. what if he ''didnt obey the law'' by not filing his tax returns. ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paddypower Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 1 hour ago, Lorry said: No. Guavaman has posted British rules of remittance-based taxation, a couple of pages up. Someone else mentioned that Japan also has remittance-based taxation, but I have no idea of their rules. The British rules make an interesting read. Most ideas to avoid taxes mentioned in this thread wouldn't be acceptable in Britain. Unfortunately, the Thai ruling class is very familiar with Britain (and Japan). Of course, many things described in the British rules are hard to prove, even in Britain. But tax evasion hoping that the facts will not come to light is very dangerous. What they cannot prove now, maybe they can prove in 7 years? Remember Al Capone. in the tax business, we called it ''the Thin Red Line'' - the difference between tax avoidance and tax evasion. I guarantee you that the 'elite' have the best Thai tax advisors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paddypower Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 4 hours ago, Karma80 said: None. Hence the speculation. It's one thing to send out a memo; it's quite another to change the law or obtain a ruling in the tax court. In typical Thai style, we could end up with nothing being clarified and things just being a mess for a couple of years as the waters get tested. Shame really. Thailand was the beneficiary of a lot of money which will stay offshore, and not just from expats. very soon, this will have a negative effect on new sales of investment condos to foreigners. unless buyers are advised by real estate agencies to just rent it out and don't report the income. Realtors are called 'real-a-snakes' in Ireland (partially because many are also lawyers). 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paddypower Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 13 hours ago, JimTripper said: why? just get a hotel and look for a new place. unless you are mobility impaired it does not really matter how old you are. if you're just of moving i can understand that, but that can happen at any age. I think that you are missing the point about the definition of ''resident'' - not to mention the Immigration visa rules, under which landlords and hotels have to report residents). It's not going to matter - if you're deemed to be resident, you are. Most western countries' tax rules are similar - stay for more than a combined total of 180 days in a calendar year and you are deemed ''resident''. Thai law is equivalent to quicksand. Or as an American friend described it to me the other day, it's like trying to nail putty to a tree. I don't understand why anyone would find this concept to be be difficult to understand. If these rules goes through, you will be in a Thai taxation prison, for all income brought into Thailand. Is that a fair assessment? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paddypower Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 5 hours ago, JRG23 said: Looking for new information about this... Has the government issued any new information following the initial announcements? RATFLOL 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paddypower Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 paddypower, TroubleandGrumpy quoted one of your posts in a topic. Posted in Thai government to tax all income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 got this in my in box: ''FFS go and have another beer and tell it to the bar girls - who gives a rats rear about what yet another barfly in Pattaya thinks - or maybe a 'feral'.. Poor fella, why doesn't your wife buy you a goat - may help you to stop from being troubleandgrumpy.? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts