Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part I

[jayboy]

9 hours ago, Dogmatix said:

 

This woman's crooked grin is too much for me along with the conflict of interest inherent in her providing tax advise to persuade people to buy the cards, while working for an agent that makes its living from selling Thai Elite/Privilege cards. 

 

She is exceptionally annoying and the conflict of interest is stunning as you suggest.Nevertheless the content seems largely accurate.By the way thanks for your contributions, a refreshing dose of knowledge/sanity in a thread not generally distinguished for same.

 

On the professional opinion side, even the kosher ones like Mazars would probably admit that we are still in the realm of speculation  - at least to some extent.

[beammeup]

She says bank transfers from personal accounts are not taxable? Really?

[foreverlomsak]

On 11/8/2023 at 4:17 PM, UKresonant said:

Since the the state pension can potentially exceed the recently static 12570pa allowance, I think the tax may be pushed to affect any other pensions and show in their P60 via code  adjustment. Not sure what they do should you not have other pensions...Curious, will try and find out.

Easy, send you an estimated tax bill, and require to complete  self assessment each year

[MrMuddle]

59 minutes ago, tomkenet said:

If you have used the loophole, transferring overseas income the year after, to save tax, it will affect you.

Wasn't aware there was a loophole!
What I've done in the past (I'm on a retirement "visa"), is transfer money every few years, as and when I need it, using "personal expenses" on the transfer form, as the reason for bringing the money over, which is the reason for doing so. If memory serves me correctly using "personal expenses", means the money isn't taxed on entry here.
No one has mentioned that the UK & Thai  Governments have a tax agreement, where if one pays UK tax, then one doesn't pay tax in Thailand, and presumably vice versa. I pay tax on savings in the UK, so as far as I'm aware, I'm not liable for tax here.I did claim arebate here once, many years ago, but haven't since. I also pay tax on my savings in Thailand.

[Enzian]

Re: that video, if someone in my home country gifts me money for my living expenses, and it can be shown if asked (how I have no idea, but leave that aside) that it was really their money and always their money, then it's not assessable income?

[samtam]

21 hours ago, samtam said:

 

Assessable if....

"from employment outside Thailand[,] a business outside Thailand[,] or property assets outside Thailand...."

 

Sorry, I missed out an "or" as in:

"from employment outside Thailand[,] a business outside Thailand[,] or property[,] or assets outside Thailand...."

[Metapod]

3 hours ago, tomkenet said:

If you have used the loophole, transferring overseas income the year after, to save tax, it will affect you.

 

It affects everyone as now all expansion here 180+ will have reporting requirements to the thai tax office. That means hiring an accountant, getting documents translated into thai, more paperwork and hassles, and potentially more tax liability.

 

Nobody is safe from this

[The Cyclist]

41 minutes ago, Metapod said:

That means hiring an accountant, getting documents translated into thai, more paperwork and hassles, and potentially more tax liability.

 

A lot of assumptions there.

 

Still, look on the bright side, if you need to hire an accountant it should be tax deductable.

 

That accountant will also deal with paperwork, document translations and any other hassles.

[beammeup]

So income from assets outside Thailand.... You only pay tax on the income? Not the entire remittance? So if I have a bond generating 5% interest and I sell it and transfer to Thailand I only pay tax on the portion that was interest? Not the principle? How is anyone going to figure out what is what?

Edited November 24, 2023 by beammeup

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, beammeup said:

So income from assets outside Thailand.... You only pay tax on the income? Not the entire remittence? So if I have a bond generating 5% interest and I remit some cash I only pay tax on the portion that was interest? Not the principle? How is anyone going to figure out what is what?

Yes, only on income earned after 1 January 2024, so make sure you have a statement or valuation dated that date, or thereabouts, that's how people can figure out what is what.

[Ben Zioner]

14 hours ago, Dogmatix said:

 

This woman's crooked grin is too much for me along with the conflict of interest inherent in her providing tax advise to persuade people to buy the cards, while working for an agent that makes its living from selling Thai Elite/Privilege cards. 

She's doable enough.. Therefore I believe everything she says. 

 

And I don't have Elite, I got an LTR/WP. So Royal Decree 743, with  Order No. P.162/2023 should cover it. Also my only earnings are pensions.

Edited November 24, 2023 by Ben Zioner

[Berkshire]

20 hours ago, Metapod said:

 

It is a remittance and would be assessable income. Transferring money or withdrawing from ATM is essentially the same here.

 

 

So a two-week tourist using an ATM for cash has to pay taxes on that?

[The Cyclist]

1 minute ago, Berkshire said:

So a two-week tourist using an ATM for cash has to pay taxes on that?

 

No

 

A 2 week tourist would not be considered a resident of Thailand for tax purposes.

 

But people have convinced themselves that the Thai authorities have the means, capability and desire to track every ATM withdrawal on a foreign card and then sub-divide that into tourists and residents for tax purposes.

 

[El Matador]

1 hour ago, The Cyclist said:

 

No

 

A 2 week tourist would not be considered a resident of Thailand for tax purposes.

 

But people have convinced themselves that the Thai authorities have the means, capability and desire to track every ATM withdrawal on a foreign card and then sub-divide that into tourists and residents for tax purposes.

 

 

There is no way they will start checking ATM withdrawals. I also guess they actually never checked if a remittance was done the same year or not.

 

Taxing remittances is an absolute bureaucratic nightmare for the tax system. They simply didn't realize it when they annunced it.

 

Probably they will evolve towards a much more simple global taxation (with maybe a few exceptions like for LTR visa holders).

The thousands of posts here are probably pretty pointless at the moment.

[jacob29]

On 11/15/2023 at 6:25 PM, stat said:

Pls read your post again. First you state that you consider it highly unlikely that TH implements a unique method in taxation. Then you state key difference (to all other countries) is that TH taxes only money remitted into the country which makes it exactly that, a unique method. Which other countries tax remitted money?

It's not additive though, it doesn't create new challenges for defining what is taxable income, or challenges in how to deal with double taxation etc.

 

In the same way a tax free income threshold doesn't change the fundamental implementation or details on what is taxable - it simply means below a given threshold you're exempt. In this case, that threshold is defined by what hasn't been remitted into Thailand. They will face unique challenges determining how much was remitted - if they care to enforce that precisely (which they quite possibly won't) - but if they just rely on self reporting it's dead simple.

[VBF]

2 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

 

No

 

A 2 week tourist would not be considered a resident of Thailand for tax purposes.

 

But people have convinced themselves that the Thai authorities have the means, capability and desire to track every ATM withdrawal on a foreign card and then sub-divide that into tourists and residents for tax purposes.

 

People convince themselves of all manner of stupidity.....frequently known as conspiracy theories! 

But you're right  - the average tourist won't even know about all this, let alone care.

Edited November 24, 2023 by VBF

[beammeup]

3 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

Yes, only on income earned after 1 January 2024, so make sure you have a statement or valuation dated that date, or thereabouts, that's how people can figure out what is what.

And if its co-mingled with savings?

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, beammeup said:

And if its co-mingled with savings?

I don't understand your question. Every financial instrument or account can have its boundaries clearly defined and separated from anything else that sits in the same pot. You may have old savings, new savings, new interest and other things, all in the same account but the amounts therein can be clearly defined for accounting purposes.

[Dogmatix]

17 hours ago, OzzBlizz said:

If you are not a bot, then how do you even get out of bed each day? Over 5000 posts and suffering from extreme distrust and paranoia. Must be a real paradise for you living in Thailand. Anyone can tell me how to block people on here?

Would you take tax advice about being a Thai tax resident from someone who has a vested interest in persuading you to become a Thai tax resident?

 

[beammeup]

8 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

I don't understand your question. Every financial instrument or account can have its boundaries clearly defined and separated from anything else that sits in the same pot. You may have old savings, new savings, new interest and other things, all in the same account but the amounts therein can be clearly defined for accounting purposes.

if you make a transfer from that pot to Thailand how are you (or they)to determine if it is "old savings, new savings, new interest and other things" its all fungible.

[Mike Lister]

Just now, Dogmatix said:

Would you take tax advice about being a Thai tax resident from someone who has a vested interest in persuading you to become a Thai tax resident?

 

I don't see that anyone is trying to persuade anyone else to do anything, apart from wait and see and stop being so paranoid about what is not known. Given the low levels of taxation in Thailand, it may well be that for some people, becoming tax resident here is to their advantage but I doubt that many will be persuaded of that because most people don't understand taxation in any detail. All many see is that Thailand is trying to tax their transfers and that's as far as their understanding of the subject will let them go. That said, fair and balanced debate along with research into the subject is useful, but there again, fair and balanced and social media don't go hand in hand.

[Dogmatix]

8 hours ago, tomkenet said:

If you have used the loophole, transferring overseas income the year after, to save tax, it will affect you.

 

It is likely to affect all retirees.  Definitely those who used the prior years loophole are affected but so are those who had all their income remitted direct to Thailand as soon as it arose without offshore seasoning.  Most likely everyone is going to have to file a tax return. Some of those who remitted their income direct may have had a Thai tax liability but didn't file a tax return or pay the tax.  However, we still don't know how the RD is going to treat income assessable in the country of origin which has a DTA with Thailand; allow deduction of tax credit but tax any differential is the Thai tax would be more; tax the whole lot and tell the taxpayer to claim a refund or claim a tax credit at home; or maybe even exempt and foreign income that is subject to tax overseas, no matter whether the tax is more or less than the Thai tax.  

 

Many decisions remain for the RD to make. So far they have just scrawled a few lines to reinterpret the tax law and left it at that which is unprofessional and irresponsible. But there again the top officials all live in huge mansions and drive fancy cars on their meagre civil service stipends. So it is reasonable to assume their working hours are occupied with something more pressing than drafting tedious tax regulations.

[Mike Lister]

4 minutes ago, beammeup said:

if you make a transfer from that pot to Thailand how are you (or they)to determine if it is "old savings, new savings, new interest and other things" its all fungible.

It will be whatever you say it is, you just have to be able to support what you say it is, with evidence.  If you keep saying it's all old savings that predates 1 Jan 24, they may look more closely, I would. You seem not to understand basic accounting. Every pot can contain many things but they can all be separated on paper to determine what is principle and what is interest or income, it's what companies do when they compile a balance sheet, you just need to do similar.

 

If you have 100 in a pot, 60 of which is old savings and 40 of which earns interest, you can transfer 60 safe in the knowledge it's old savings that you can prove. When you get ready to transfer the 40, you need to know what part of it is principle and what is income. 

[Dogmatix]

6 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

I don't see that anyone is trying to persuade anyone else to do anything, apart from wait and see and stop being so paranoid about what is not known. Given the low levels of taxation in Thailand, it may well be that for some people, becoming tax resident here is to their advantage but I doubt that many will be persuaded of that because most people don't understand taxation in any detail. All many see is that Thailand is trying to tax their transfers and that's as far as their understanding of the subject will let them go. That said, fair and balanced debate along with research into the subject is useful, but there again, fair and balanced and social media don't go hand in hand.

 

The problem is that there has been no effort made by the RD or the government to think this through to see if it is even net beneficial to Thailand, let alone draft the hundreds of pages of regulations needed to cover the complex situations that will arise or even explain how to claim a tax credit when there is no space for this on the form.  So it is not surprising that a great deal of angst, uncertainty and speculation has arisen.  Probably many people will decide not to move to Thailand, leave Thailand and/or not invest in Thai property due to the uncertainties created, even though it might not turn out to be disadvantageous to them. That is a result of utter incompetence and idleness of the RD and government. 

[beammeup]

6 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

It will be whatever you say it is, you just have to be able to support what you say it is, with evidence.  If you keep saying it's all old savings that predates 1 Jan 24, they may look more closely, I would. You seem not to understand basic accounting. Every pot can contain many things but they can all be separated on paper to determine what is principle and what is interest or income, it's what companies do when they compile a balance sheet, you just need to do similar.

 

If you have 100 in a pot, 60 of which is old savings and 40 of which earns interest, you can transfer 60 safe in the knowledge it's old savings that you can prove. When you get ready to transfer the 40, you need to know what part of it is principle and what is income. 

No I am not an accountant. I get what you are saying but I have my doubts that the RD will see it that way. I can just imagine trying to explain that I am not transferring the income part from my co-mingles account just the savings part.

[Mike Lister]

6 minutes ago, Dogmatix said:

 

The problem is that there has been no effort made by the RD or the government to think this through to see if it is even net beneficial to Thailand, let alone draft the hundreds of pages of regulations needed to cover the complex situations that will arise or even explain how to claim a tax credit when there is no space for this on the form.  So it is not surprising that a great deal of angst, uncertainty and speculation has arisen.  Probably many people will decide not to move to Thailand, leave Thailand and/or not invest in Thai property due to the uncertainties created, even though it might not turn out to be disadvantageous to them. That is a result of utter incompetence and idleness of the RD and government. 

And? So?

 

Anyone who has lived here for any period of time, understands fully that this announcement is classic Thai government, get the message out there and we'll deal with the detail later. If people don't understand that or if they want the government to behave differently, in a more structured and complete manner, probably shouldn't even consider being/coming here because it wont happen in this decade and perhaps not in the next. They understand all that, most posters here don't, that's the problem, it's all about expectations management.

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, beammeup said:

No I am not an accountant. I get what you are saying but I have my doubts that the RD will see it that way. I can just imagine trying to explain that I am not transferring the income part from my co-mingles account just the savings part.

Well, if you said that to me I might believe you the first time but if you keep saying it to me repeatedly, I'm going to ask you to account for your past transfers and prove to me that what you say is true, that's why you need your baseline and an audit trail. That's pretty much how audits and tax reviews work everywhere,.

[beammeup]

2 minutes ago, beammeup said:

No I am not an accountant. I get what you are saying but I have my doubts that the RD will see it that way. I can just imagine trying to explain that I am not transferring the income part from my co-mingles account just the savings part.

An obvious solution is to not co-mingle. Added complexity to my simple life

[Metapod]

8 hours ago, beammeup said:

She says bank transfers from personal accounts are not taxable? Really?

 

She is wrong and doesn't know <deleted> all about taxes.

[ukrules]

1 hour ago, El Matador said:

Probably they will evolve towards a much more simple global taxation (with maybe a few exceptions like for LTR visa holders).

 

I find that highly unlikely, they may talk about it but it's never going to happen.