Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part I

[Ben Zioner]

50 minutes ago, FritsSikkink said:

Like these people have any credibility.

What wrong with the statement regarding the LTR visa? Has RD. 743 been repealed? 

[Mike Lister]

8 minutes ago, Ben Zioner said:

What wrong with the statement regarding the LTR visa? Has RD. 743 been repealed? 

No

[Guderian]

1 hour ago, liddelljohn said:

also only spending  150 days in UK

 

So, if that's going to be an annual feature, you intend becoming UK resident for tax purposes? You're allowed an average of 91 days a year in the UK over a four-year period, and no more than 183 days in any single tax year. 

[Danderman123]

6 hours ago, JonnyF said:

 

Seriously? You left Thailand for 6 months before you even knew if it would be implemented, and how?

 

Seems like a massive over-reaction given the tendency of the government to make stupid announcements that they cannot implement and then flip flop or simply pretend they never said it. 

i have left for a 6 month travel plan, with a brief return in April. Right now, I am in Copacabana, Rio de Janeiro.

 

If this new scheme is dropped, I can cut my travel short.

 

If not, I will complete my travel outside Thailand. Next year, I will monitor what happens to the 100,000s of ex-pats who are supposed to file.

[Danderman123]

3 hours ago, Ben Zioner said:

Actually, IT IS.

Rather than use the word "implemented", I should have written about waiting to see if the new tax scheme is enforced, and how so.

 

That's the real question: will the new rule changes impact the 100,000s of ex-pats in Thailand? Or will they remain blissfully ignorant of Thai taxation?

Edited January 24 by Danderman123

[newnative]

19 minutes ago, Danderman123 said:

i have left for a 6 month travel plan, with a brief return in April. Right now, I am in Copacabana, Rio de Janeiro.

 

If this new scheme is dropped, I can cut my travel short.

 

If not, I will complete my travel outside Thailand. Next year, I will monitor what happens to the 100,000s of ex-pats who are supposed to file.

     I'm not filing in 2024 because all the money I remitted to Thailand in 2023 is shielded, so no need to file.  I'm not filing in 2025 because I plan to bring no money into Thailand in 2024, so no need to file.  I'm not filing in 2026 because if I bring any money into Thailand in 2024 it will be pre-2024 savings, which are shielded, so no need to file.  I will only be filing in the next few years if it becomes a requirement for Immigration.

[Mike Lister]

3 minutes ago, newnative said:

     I'm not filing in 2024 because all the money I remitted to Thailand in 2023 is shielded, so no need to file.  I'm not filing in 2025 because I plan to bring no money into Thailand in 2024, so no need to file.  I'm not filing in 2026 because if I bring any money into Thailand in 2024 it will be pre-2024 savings, which are shielded, so no need to file.  I will only be filing in the next few years if it becomes a requirement for Immigration.

Nicely planned out, well done.

[Badrabbit]

6 minutes ago, newnative said:

     I'm not filing in 2024 because all the money I remitted to Thailand in 2023 is shielded, so no need to file.  I'm not filing in 2025 because I plan to bring no money into Thailand in 2024, so no need to file.  I'm not filing in 2026 because if I bring any money into Thailand in 2024 it will be pre-2024 savings, which are shielded, so no need to file.  I will only be filing in the next few years if it becomes a requirement for Immigration.

Confused which isn't hard for me.

[JimGant]

42 minutes ago, newnative said:

I'm not filing in 2024 because all the money I remitted to Thailand in 2023 is shielded, so no need to file. 

 

Because it was money taxable exclusively by your home country -- and/or it was money earned in 2022, or earlier? Sorry to question your methodology, but a few folks have indicated that they believe that "all money in bank accounts pre Jan 1st, 2024" is exempt from the new rules. It is -- but not from the old rule, meaning 2023 earnings remitted in 2023 are subject to filing a Thai tax return in 2024 -- if not exempt via DTA.

[Bobthegimp]

218 pages. Any clarification from the government? So far it looks like nothing more than  prognostications from the cheap seats. 

[TravelerEastWest]

23 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

Firstly, if you look at the document we produced in the Simple Tax thread, and also read the second post, you will see that we are careful to ensure that everyone understands that the purpose of the document is to inform, not to advise. Nowhere does it even remotely suggest that I, or anyone connected with the thread, is a tax expert, in any country, nor will tax advice be given. In fact, we state categorically, at the outset, that we are not any of those things. 

 

Secondly, you are American and having lived in the US for almost two decades, I am aware of the average American persons near total reliance on the likes of HR Block (or similar) to prepare even basic tax returns and of the tax preparation industry in your country. In the UK, we have nothing even comparable, we trust ourselves to be capable of understanding basic tax rules and performing basic math, which is why the UK tax authority allows us to do self assessment online, without the need to rely on the likes of an HR Block equivalent. In a nutshell, our cultures and approach to tax preparation are very different, as are our respective education systems. I should also point out the Thai Revenue Department also trusts its citizens because tax filing system has been online for several years and regular, every day Thai people, are entrusted to enter their own tax data and prepare their own tax returns. I suppose if you take the view that the average Western expats in Thailand is far less capable than the native population in Thailand, your suggestion that we all need Thai CPA's to file tax returns, might be valid!

 

Thirdly, I understand that Americans will always advocate the use of CPA's for tax preparation, which for tax affairs above anything other than the basic level, is probably a sound idea, especially in a foreign country. However, most reasonably well educated and equipped individuals who have filed taxes previously in their own country, are eminently capable of filing a simple tax return in Thailand. If of course they are uncomfortable with such things, there are plenty of CPA's around who will do the work for a fee, but that is not necessarily always the default case and starting point for everyone. If all else fails, I suppose expats could always ask the locals how to file a return since they seem not to need tax preparers!

 

Lastly, I am never going to give anyone tax advice, other than perhaps my wife, I'll happily cast an opinion and tell people what I think about individual aspects of tax, if asked, (because this is after all a social network forum that discusses tax), providing I know, but advice, no/ These threads are not in that business and if anyone things differently they should go back and reread carefully the things that have been said.

 

And lastly lastly, I don't mind that posters such as you and others post denigrating comments about their perceptions. The realities, however, are that in over 240 pages, over 6,300 posts discussing tax, that have endured for many bilious weeks, none of the participants  have been able to stop debating  the quality of air in a vacuum long enough, in a repetitive circular fashion, to produce anything even remotely useful to the average expat. I make no apologies that we have brought an end to that often gut wrenching exchange and produced something of value that ordainary people can understand. I understand that a handful of posters are annoyed at that but the thread has been a talking shop, a mutual ego stroking competition to see who is the biggest "expert" or most capable hypothetical thinker, for many weeks.

 

I hope that clears up some of the misperceptions you have very clearly been under

 

Hello Mike Lister,

 

Thank you for your thoughtful and friendly comments:

 

1) Your disclaimer will be ignored by some of your readers - evidence of that is by a recent poster who was very uncertain about what to do... you replied that you would be happy to help (sounds a lot like advice to readers). Note I am impressed with your kindness I think you are clearly a nice person who it would be fun to have a cup of coffee with...

 

2) Your comment on HR Block is actually an interesting one - they (and other firms like them) prepare many returns and typically do not employ CPAs or other qualified staff - what they do is recruit seasonal workers who they train for a few hours.

 

They are actually very much in your old field - finance those without experience in the American tax industry are unlikely to know this...

 

They make money - lots of money by making high interest loans for tax refunds. I do not know what percent of their customers would use them without the loans probably a very small number? 

 

Not really sure what your mention of UK taxpayers shows but since I have never been to the UK (but would love to visit one day to walk in the Lake District and visit the V and A museum) I will not comment and take it as your thoughts...

 

In regards to education systems, I do know a bit about the UK education through accounts from friends who grew up and taught there. One thing comes to mind the early narrowing of subjects in high school compared to the American system with many electives. Like the sports world, there will be fans of both. And I do see advantages to both systems but prefer the American system. Both because the American system tends to be more fun (I know not a serious response) and because the American system tends to lead to thinking outside the box. Although Darwin and others in England are amazing!

 

The Thai Revenue department thinks a bit differently than you imagine (and all tax practitioners in Thailand know about these rules) - They do not always trust those with small businesses (such as street noodle sellers) they stand nearby and count sales and then tell the taxpayer how much to pay. Just an example but a real one told to me by a Revenue department district director. This shows the lack of trust in the skill set of the population.

 

That was a practical example, on a more theoretical level they know that bookkeeping can be difficult for those who are not trained in that skill so for some small businesses - they simply say - you have no need to keep track of your expenses at all - not all, as it is not practical- instead, they give you a percent of revenues - such as 60% as an automatic deduction. If you haver the slightest doubt of what I am saying ask a Thai tax professional on either side of the street a CPA of Revenue department auditor.

 

You will never see such a kind practice by the US IRS - never... I have no idea what is allowed in the UK maybe you can tell us?

 

I am still very curious about your 4 years at Deloitte which is a fantastic firm and very large - were you in the tax department as you hinted at or a totally unrelated area? I ask as if you were a tax guy I very much need to give you a great deal of respect as four years in their tax department would mean you know great deal about the tax world.

 

If you have no real-world tax experience or a recent tax law education - you should not be offering to help elderly forum members - I get it that you have a good heart but again unless someone has experience and or education in the field it is perhaps not really being kind...

 

As for your mention of the average Expat's skills in Thailand I really don't know; but in general due to a lack of language skills yes, they are at a disadvantage.

 

At home, someone who is a good reader but not skilled in taxation can read about a new tax law and be alerted to research it or pay for advice - in Thailand that could be difficult.

 

Thai CPAs are very inexpensive and something you may know is the fact that tax returns prepared by CPAs have a very low probability of audit compared to those done by individuals. You may or may not know this - did you mention this fact in your guide and did you know this? All CPAs know this.

 

Thinking aloud - if someone enjoys doing complex crossword puzzles and playing chess etc. doing your Thai tax return yourself may be an interesting challenge? Just a random thought I could easily be wrong.

 

I understand that you truly believe in your positions and I compliment you on your kind intentions.

 

Softly, gently, and politely I don't agree with your opinion of your advice and theories - but I am eagerly awaiting your response to my question about the nature of your four years at Deloitte.

 

 

Edited January 24 by metisdead
Oversize font reset to normal.

[Mike Lister]

Please do not type in such a large type face, it gives the impression of shouting and is difficult to read.

 

My career and background are not the subject of this thread and personalization of them are very much off topic, as much as you may be curious and wish to know more.

 

I am aware of the 60% deduction for expenses. My wife runs a business and we file her taxes using that very generous deductions, which until fairly recently was even higher.

 

Thank you for telling me who I should and should not be trying to help and how but your advice is not required in this area. Now, I insist that the debate return to the topic and not stray further afield, any further off topic posts will be removed. Thanks.

[Danderman123]

2 hours ago, JimGant said:

 

Because it was money taxable exclusively by your home country -- and/or it was money earned in 2022, or earlier? Sorry to question your methodology, but a few folks have indicated that they believe that "all money in bank accounts pre Jan 1st, 2024" is exempt from the new rules. It is -- but not from the old rule, meaning 2023 earnings remitted in 2023 are subject to filing a Thai tax return in 2024 -- if not exempt via DTA.

How many expats are even aware of the old rule?

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, Danderman123 said:

How many expats are even aware of the old rule?

Certainly any who has read AN or TVF over the years will have been aware because of the many posts warning readers not to remit funds in the year they were earned, my guess is that was one of the most common statements made on these sites, by expats.

[JimGant]

6 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

my guess is that was one of the most common statements made on these sites, by expats.

Indeed. Dandruffman123 must be joshing.

Edited January 24 by JimGant

[TravelerEastWest]

30 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Please do not type in such a large type face, it gives the impression of shouting and is difficult to read.

 

My career and background are not the subject of this thread and personalization of them are very much off topic, as much as you may be curious and wish to know more.

 

I am aware of the 60% deduction for expenses. My wife runs a business and we file her taxes using that very generous deductions, which until fairly recently was even higher.

 

Thank you for telling me who I should and should not be trying to help and how but your advice is not required in this area. Now, I insist that the debate return to the topic and not stray further afield, any further off topic posts will be removed. Thanks.

On my monitor the type is not overly large  - maybe something is off with my settings?I I shall have to consult with someone who is good with these things. 

 

I do not shout in person or online ever - end of story. For some it is easier to read and you are the first person ever to suggest this. 

 

By mentioning those four years and where you were employed you opened up questions; please do not blame others when you prefer not to speak about your tax background or lack thereof. I agree again this is your right. As a courtesy to you I won't mention the missing four years again as I don''t want you to be uncomfortable.

 

Confusing that you know about the general deduction yet feel such confidence is placed in the taxpayers again it seems to clearly not support your stated theory as does my practical but very limited experience in Thai tax life, but again you have a right to your opinions right or wrong. we have something in common - I found out about that deduction by accident from my wife's CPA.

 

As for removing posts that would be a bit much; removing posts should be reserved for bad language, violence, prohibited quoting - etc. if you are not comfortable with readers being curious your education and experience - which is 100% directly related to the topic as you brought it up...

 

Again I do think that you are kind and mean well. Thank you for your many hours trying to help people.

[Mike Lister]

3 minutes ago, TravelerEastWest said:

On my monitor the type is not overly large  - maybe something is off with my settings?I I shall have to consult with someone who is good with these things. 

 

I do not shout in person or online ever - end of story. For some it is easier to read and you are the first person ever to suggest this. 

 

By mentioning those four years and where you were employed you opened up questions; please do not blame others when you prefer not to speak about your tax background or lack thereof. I agree again this is your right. As a courtesy to you I won't mention the missing four years again as I don''t want you to be uncomfortable.

 

Confusing that you know about the general deduction yet feel such confidence is placed in the taxpayers again it seems to clearly not support your stated theory as does my practical but very limited experience in Thai tax life, but again you have a right to your opinions right or wrong. we have something in common - I found out about that deduction by accident from my wife's CPA.

 

As for removing posts that would be a bit much; removing posts should be reserved for bad language, violence, prohibited quoting - etc. if you are not comfortable with readers being curious your education and experience - which is 100% directly related to the topic as you brought it up...

 

Again I do think that you are kind and mean well. Thank you for your many hours trying to help people.

The type face size issue appears to have resolved, I'm not sure he did what but your type face is normal.

 

I mentioned parts of my background in order to make a specific point in a post I wrote, not to make it the new focus of the thread!

 

The 60% deduction for costs in Thai tax is optional, tax filers can detail actual expenses if they wish.

 

Here is a link to the forum rules, please familiarize yourself with them because they are the basis of any actions that moderators take, nor more, no less.

 

https://aseannow.com/forum_rules/

 

[newnative]

3 hours ago, JimGant said:

 

Because it was money taxable exclusively by your home country -- and/or it was money earned in 2022, or earlier? Sorry to question your methodology, but a few folks have indicated that they believe that "all money in bank accounts pre Jan 1st, 2024" is exempt from the new rules. It is -- but not from the old rule, meaning 2023 earnings remitted in 2023 are subject to filing a Thai tax return in 2024 -- if not exempt via DTA.

USA citizen so exempt via DTA.

[CrossBones]

What happens if i...

 

a) Purchase a new car from a dealer and pay them directly from my overseas account.

 

This is not my income, its is their income.

 

b) I purchase a new condo off a developer. I pay them directly from overseas.

 

The money hasnt touched my account, in either case.

 

Any ideas?

[Danderman123]

Is there anyone here who is *not* working in Thailand, but files Thai income tax to cover funds transferred into Thailand from abroad?

 

I don't understand the mumbo-jumbo about which year income is earned that makes it taxable, maybe a tax filer can make it more understandable- if there are any such filers.

 

For the life of me, I don't know how to prove that money in my home bank account was earned in any particular year. Maybe people are opening up bank accounts every January 1, and then stopping deposits after December 31, and do have documented earnings for every year, via multiple bank accounts.

 

For when they file Thai tax returns.

[Danderman123]

12 minutes ago, CrossBones said:

What happens if i...

 

a) Purchase a new car from a dealer and pay them directly from my overseas account.

 

This is not my income, its is their income.

 

b) I purchase a new condo off a developer. I pay them directly from overseas.

 

The money hasnt touched my account, in either case.

 

Any ideas?

Legally, that's money transferred into Thailand from abroad, and therefore goes on your tax return.

 

For when you file.

[UKresonant]

8 hours ago, Ben Zioner said:

What wrong with the statement regarding the LTR visa? Has RD. 743 been repealed? 

 

No it's still in place...

 

https://youtube.com/clip/Ugkxv3eDJmpwbaMv8y0dCuqfbA5dVeb2Fz3w?si=gBWX09_NoYHVIVUO

[CrossBones]

15 minutes ago, Danderman123 said:

Legally, that's money transferred into Thailand from abroad, and therefore goes on your tax return.

 

For when you file.

 

Are you sure?

 

I purchased  something from a Thai company and they will be paying tax on any profits from what they sold me.

 

 

[Danderman123]

1 minute ago, CrossBones said:

 

Are you sure?

 

I purchased  something from a Thai company and they will be paying tax on any profits from what they sold me.

 

 

My reply was based on previous comments from the "experts" here.

 

However, I paid my 2024 HOA fee with a bank transfer from abroad.

 

[UKresonant]

34 minutes ago, CrossBones said:

What happens if i...

 

a) Purchase a new car from a dealer and pay them directly from my overseas account.

 

This is not my income, its is their income.

 

b) I purchase a new condo off a developer. I pay them directly from overseas.

 

The money hasnt touched my account, in either case.

 

Any ideas?

 

a) a gift to your wife perhaps, is the car under 20m ? Don't know!

 

b) I was thinking that the scrutiny of the inbound funds was part of the transaction to purchase a foreign owned Condo. Doubtful on that one

[CrossBones]

Here is another scenario

 

I live in Thailand. I am tax resident

 

I transfer money from my offshore account to someone else in Thailand, who is also a Thai tax resident.

 

According to the above comment I have to pay tax on any money i sent into Thailand.

 

And the other person I sent money to - they also received (my) money form overseas

 

Should we both, then, pay tax on the (same) amount?

 

Doesnt make any sense.

 

 

[Celsius]

What a idiotic thread 

[CrossBones]

7 minutes ago, CrossBones said:

Here is another scenario

 

I live in Thailand. I am tax resident

 

I transfer money from my offshore account to someone else in Thailand, who is also a Thai tax resident.

 

According to the above comment I have to pay tax on any money i sent into Thailand.

 

And the other person I sent money to - they also received (my) money form overseas

 

Should we both, then, pay tax on the (same) amount?

 

Doesnt make any sense.

 

 

 

Its got to be the person who RECEIVED the money pays the tax. Not the person who sent it.

 

So in the case that I purchase something of value from overseas account - its the receiver that pays the tax. Otherwise its taxed twice if me remitting it into thailand is taxable (regardless of it not being remitted to myself) and the receiver has to pay tax on it (if to their personal account as income) and if the receiver is a company (ie motor trader, or condo developer) then this goes through their books, not mine.

 

 

[Danderman123]

40 minutes ago, CrossBones said:

Here is another scenario

 

I live in Thailand. I am tax resident

 

I transfer money from my offshore account to someone else in Thailand, who is also a Thai tax resident.

 

According to the above comment I have to pay tax on any money i sent into Thailand.

 

And the other person I sent money to - they also received (my) money form overseas

 

Should we both, then, pay tax on the (same) amount?

 

Doesnt make any sense.

 

 

If you first transfer the funds into your Thai bank account, and then you transfer the money to the final recipient, is the money taxable twice?

 

If the funds are for a condo, what if you transfer the money from abroad into an escrow account?

[CrossBones]

11 minutes ago, Danderman123 said:

If you first transfer the funds into your Thai bank account, and then you transfer the money to the final recipient, is the money taxable twice?

 

If the funds are for a condo, what if you transfer the money from abroad into an escrow account?

a) Yes

b) Good question.