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Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part I


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Posted
4 hours ago, redwood1 said:

 

So what does this Green Card visa from the USA say....It says "RESIDENT".......To let people know they are a " RESIDENT" of the USA and have all the benefits and rights of being a " RESIDENT"....

 

 

And the O visa say " NON IMMIGRANT " .....To let people know that they are not a resident of Thailand....And make it clear they have zero rights or benefits of being a resident in Thailand...

Does the O visa say your a " NON IMMIGRANT "  except for taxes?.....Nope it sure does not.....

 

 

image.png.3cba5503db3930b0026b3e72bbdaa5b1.png

 

A CR1 spouse visa (also called IR1) is a green card that allows someone from another country to live in the U.S. with their spouse, a U.S. citizen or permanent resident. If you’ve been married for less than two years, you might get a CR-1 visa (conditional resident), and if you’ve been married for two years or more, you might get an IR1 visa 

You are relying on the English language interpretation of the rules which are unreliable. This is because of the mapping between Thai language, which describes the law, and, English which which is a poorly mapped translation, ergo, the use of the word "resident". 

Posted
10 hours ago, redwood1 said:

 

So what does this Green Card visa from the USA say....It says "RESIDENT".......To let people know they are a " RESIDENT" of the USA and have all the benefits and rights of being a " RESIDENT"....

 

 

And the O visa say " NON IMMIGRANT " .....To let people know that they are not a resident of Thailand....And make it clear they have zero rights or benefits of being a resident in Thailand...

Does the O visa say your a " NON IMMIGRANT "  except for taxes?.....Nope it sure does not.....

 

 

image.png.3cba5503db3930b0026b3e72bbdaa5b1.png

 

A CR1 spouse visa (also called IR1) is a green card that allows someone from another country to live in the U.S. with their spouse, a U.S. citizen or permanent resident. If you’ve been married for less than two years, you might get a CR-1 visa (conditional resident), and if you’ve been married for two years or more, you might get an IR1 visa 

Have no Idea what you have to do to get a Green Card for the US, but to become a Tax Resident in a Country other than your Homeland you just have to stay 180+ days without any additional Paperwork.

Posted
45 minutes ago, samtam said:

That's how I read it too.

 

3 hours ago, Guderian said:

 

It seems like bad news to me. Section 40 appears to class pensions and overseas investment income as assessable for Thai tax, which probably means the entire income of many pensioners living here.

 

https://sherrings.com/personal-income-tax-in-thailand.html

 

 

 

 

As the poster above as already said, you're reading the wrong things, why this is only you will know! When you get done, please read this and come back to us with any remaining questions.

 

https://aseannow.com/topic/1316818-personal-income-tax-guide-for-foreigners-thailand/

Posted
On 2/2/2024 at 1:09 PM, Mike Lister said:

True. But Sherrings reports that there will be no double taxation. And since Thai tax tables are much lower than those in other countries, it seems unlikely that a majority of people will end up paying higher rates of tax here than they would in their home country. 

Nope tax tables are not lower in Thailand in the case of investment income as Thailand does not have a special rate for capital gains as most other countries (US, Germany etc). Most tax residents in TH will only have pensions and investment income.

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Posted
4 minutes ago, stat said:

Nope tax tables are not lower in Thailand in the case of investment income as Thailand does not have a special rate for capital gains as most other countries (US, Germany etc). Most tax residents in TH will only have pensions and investment income.

Capital Gains in Thailand is charged at PIT rates which start at 5%. Capital Gains in the UK (excl property) starts at 10%, in the US at 15% and in the EU average 18%.

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Posted
On 2/2/2024 at 11:41 AM, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Thanks.  But technically you are only allowed to stay in 90 days blocks.  If you do not 'report' after 90 days (allowances either side), your 'permission to stay' in Thailand is not valid - and if Thai Immigration decided, the whole 12 months period could be revoked and you could be deported - but they are usualy very understanding and prefer that you just pay a fine (which goes into the team pool).  The point being you have no legal right to stay 12 months - you must report every 90 days in order to get another 90 days - and then after 12 months you must apply to get another 12 months extension - which is broken down into 4 x 90 days permission to stay.  We are all very far from being a Resident in Thailand.

 

In anser to anyone thinking that we are tax residents because Thailand states that anyone staying in Thailand 180 days is a tax resident is irrelevent - especially under a DTA.  In Cyprus it is 2 months to be a tax resident - good luck with that I say. 

I think you are mixing up the term resident. On the tax side the defintion is clear it is 180 days in Thailand and you are a TAX resident period. Any other legal definition in terms of how long will not matter. You could however hope to seek refuge under an DTA and claim to be only aussie resident with your definition but the outcome will be highly uncertain and very time consuming and very costly.

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Posted
9 minutes ago, stat said:

Tax rates starts at 5% but goes up fast to 35%! in Thailand. So if you earn 100K EUR a year the difference is substantial. You made the general statement that thai tax rates are lower which is wrong in the case of capital gains. In Germany I do not pay any tax under 11K Eur a year where in TH I already pay a 10% marginal tax rate.

 

I will not talk to you further on this subject anyone interested has seen the facts.

As you wish! It's just that in Thailand I don't pay tax on anything under 12.5k Pounds a year!

 

The more you earn, the more you pay in Thailand, that part is true.  

 

You are talking specifically about investment income and capital gains, my quote was not discussing those things, my mention was of general tax income. You are cherry picking your arguments!

Posted
22 minutes ago, stat said:

I think you are mixing up the term resident. On the tax side the defintion is clear it is 180 days in Thailand and you are a TAX resident period. Any other legal definition in terms of how long will not matter. You could however hope to seek refuge under an DTA and claim to be only aussie resident with your definition but the outcome will be highly uncertain and very time consuming and very costly.

 

Most expats are here on a O visa...

 

 Expats must renew and sign new visa forums every year....The O visa spells out the exact terms of your status which is NON IMMIGRANT ......

 

I dont recall a single mention in the papers I sign every year about me suddenly becoming a resident of Thailand after 180 days.....Nope not a single mention of this EVER....I sure never signed any paper that said this......

 

But the O visa does say, I can stay in Thailand for the next year as a NON IMMIGRANT and only a NON IMMIGRANT,FOR ONE YEAR...As in 365 days....

 

No twisting of words or meanings with legal mumbo jumbo change this fact.....

 

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Posted
Just now, Mike Lister said:

I wanted to satisfy myself that what I said earlier was true so I ran a quick back of the fag packet comparison. Below I compared, unscientifically, tax rates against Pounds and their Baht equivalents at 44. I assumed that the Personal Allowance and TEDA were similar, in the case of the Thai side, 350k + 150k zero rated. As you can see, the Thai tax rates are lower until they reach the range shaded in yellow and the UK has a 5% advantage, after which they diverge quite significantly once again. 

 

 

image.png.c2fbf62439fad7dd779a937be629838a.png

 

The over 65 190k THB allowance certainly helps a lot (once I Qualify later), I'm simplifying it in my thoughts as up to 1 million Baht parity-ish, one to two million baht more in Thailand, over 2.2 m baht gradually becomes cheaper than U.K. 

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Posted
8 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

I wanted to satisfy myself that what I said earlier was true so I ran a quick back of the fag packet comparison. Below I compared, unscientifically, tax rates against Pounds and their Baht equivalents at 44. I assumed that the Personal Allowance and TEDA were similar, in the case of the Thai side, 350k + 150k zero rated. As you can see, the Thai tax rates are lower until they reach the range shaded in yellow and the UK has a 5% advantage, after which they diverge quite significantly once again. 

 

 

image.png.c2fbf62439fad7dd779a937be629838a.png

** Moderator edit to remove flame

 

Capital gains rates in the UK are fixed to my knowledge, in a 10% range and 20% range for CGT.

 

https://taxscouts.com/glossary/capital-gains-tax-cgt/

 

** Moderator edit to remove second flame.

 

The 10% band is missing in your chart for the UK, the 40 and 45% bands do not exist in the UK for CGT, you have not taken into account the correct allowances for the UK as they are lower etc... Your conclusion that Thailand is cheaper the higher the capital gains income is therefore dead wrong.

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Posted
6 hours ago, stat said:

** Moderator edit to remove flame

 

Capital gains rates in the UK are fixed to my knowledge, in a 10% range and 20% range for CGT.

 

https://taxscouts.com/glossary/capital-gains-tax-cgt/

 

** Moderator edit to remove second flame.

 

The 10% band is missing in your chart for the UK, the 40 and 45% bands do not exist in the UK for CGT, you have not taken into account the correct allowances for the UK as they are lower etc... Your conclusion that Thailand is cheaper the higher the capital gains income is therefore dead wrong.

 

My post compared tax tables between UK and Thailand, It did not compare Capital gains rates or anything else.

 

You wrote: "Your conclusion that Thailand is cheaper the higher the capital gains income is therefore dead wrong". This is your statement, not my conclusion!

 

If you want to compare capital gains tax rates, please construct a table and post it.

 

I removed some of the flames and bait in your argumentative post but will leave your post in place, on this occasion only. 

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Posted
6 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

My post compared tax tables between UK and Thailand, It did not compare Capital gains rates or anything else.

 

You wrote: "Your conclusion that Thailand is cheaper the higher the capital gains income is therefore dead wrong". This is your statement, not my conclusion!

 

If you want to compare capital gains tax rates, please construct a table and post it.

 

The issue @stat is highlighting is that you present your tax rates comparison table without precising what kind of income it is referring to.

Any unaware reader can understand that all income falls under these rates, however it's not the case.

 

As you may know, unlike most countries (including UK, US, ...), Thailand has no specific capital gains tax and CG are taxed as ordinary income falling under PIT rates.

 

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Posted
22 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

 

The issue @stat is highlighting is that you present your tax rates comparison table without precising what kind of income it is referring to.

Any unaware reader can understand that all income falls under these rates, however it's not the case.

 

As you may know, unlike most countries (including UK, US, ...), Thailand has no specific capital gains tax and CG are taxed as ordinary income falling under PIT rates.

 

 

It is PIT tax tables that are being compared side by side, nothing more than that. The focus of the Simple Tax guide and these discussions, from our perspective has always been the average expat but with an emphasis on retirees on a pension because they are the ones who have expressed most concern at the new rule and the group from which most personal messages have come. The thread cannot realistically be expected to cover all types of tax, it was only ever intended to cover PIT.

 

The thread also attempts not to be country specific although out of necessity it has been UK centric at times. It is not realistic to think the thread can cover all aspects of tax for everyone, from every country. It is also not realistic to think it can delve into capital gains scenario's covering both property and investment in all the different countries that posters come from. Simply, there are too many product variants in the different countries and insufficient expertise in the forum to be able to provide conclusive answer for everyone.

 

There has to be a line, beyond which posters must either examine their DTA's or seek specialist advice. Poster @JimGant is a retired US CPA and is usually willing to help answer questions from Americans, about US taxes. Australians seem to have grouped and have various discussions underway regarding their pensions and income. Nationals of other countries will have to seek out the information they require from the different resources available to them or seek specialist advice.

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Posted
On 1/27/2024 at 5:08 PM, Mike Lister said:

the media has been letting everyone know, in no uncertain terms, that they are now required to comply with the tax rules and that they will no longer be ignored

 

Not sure the media in Thailand has done a decent job in explaining the issues.In contrast the top Bangkok based firms have been helpful.For example

 

https://www.mazars.co.th/Home/Insights/Doing-Business-in-Thailand/Tax/Revenue-Department-s-guidance-on-foreign-income

 

Interesting to note the Mazars view based on RD announcements that income earned before 2024 does NOT have to be declared on tax return.Don't think this has been dealt with specifically on this forum.

 

I'm not sure how interest on cash deposits arranged before 2024 would be treated.I suppose it's just another reminder to ensure comprehensive records are kept in case RD has any questions.

 

Still not sure whether tax resident who funds entirely from non taxable pre-2024 sources needs to file a return at all.

Posted
16 minutes ago, jayboy said:

 

Not sure the media in Thailand has done a decent job in explaining the issues.In contrast the top Bangkok based firms have been helpful.For example

 

https://www.mazars.co.th/Home/Insights/Doing-Business-in-Thailand/Tax/Revenue-Department-s-guidance-on-foreign-income

 

Interesting to note the Mazars view based on RD announcements that income earned before 2024 does NOT have to be declared on tax return.Don't think this has been dealt with specifically on this forum.

 

I'm not sure how interest on cash deposits arranged before 2024 would be treated.I suppose it's just another reminder to ensure comprehensive records are kept in case RD has any questions.

 

Still not sure whether tax resident who funds entirely from non taxable pre-2024 sources needs to file a return at all.

Pre 2024 income is exempt, there is no place on the form to enter the information 

 

 

Posted
17 hours ago, redwood1 said:

 

Most expats are here on a O visa...

 

 Expats must renew and sign new visa forums every year....The O visa spells out the exact terms of your status which is NON IMMIGRANT ......

 

I dont recall a single mention in the papers I sign every year about me suddenly becoming a resident of Thailand after 180 days.....Nope not a single mention of this EVER....I sure never signed any paper that said this......

 

But the O visa does say, I can stay in Thailand for the next year as a NON IMMIGRANT and only a NON IMMIGRANT,FOR ONE YEAR...As in 365 days....

 

No twisting of words or meanings with legal mumbo jumbo change this fact.....

 

 

Does that mean you can ignore the laws of Thailand while you are here as a non-immigrant?  Do what you like and just point to the stamp in your passport when arrested? 

Your visa/permission to stay/immigration status has no bearing whatsoever on your duty to follow all the laws of whatever country you are in.  And in this case, the law is quite clear - spend 180 days or more in the country in any calendar year and you are a tax resident for that year, with all the obligations that go with it.

Posted

On and on it goes

 

If you are a retiree expat, who is a tax resident of Thailand. Then the following is the batting list.

 

* Your Country - Thai DTA takes precedence.

 

If you fall through the cracks of your Country - Thai DTA then

 

* The Revenue Code becomes applicable.

 

The last Q&A session stated that income taxed in home Countries will not be taxed in Thailand. The logical conclusion to draw from that ( Unless something comes out to over-ride it ) would be that if it wont be taxed in Thailand then you should not need to file anything.

 

** There may yet be a system put in place, for transparency and tax avoidance purposes, to declare your already taxed income. Whether that be part  of the new tax form or some other method.

 

It could equally be the case that you will have to do........... Absolutely nothing.

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Posted
11 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

 

My post compared tax tables between UK and Thailand, It did not compare Capital gains rates or anything else.

 

You wrote: "Your conclusion that Thailand is cheaper the higher the capital gains income is therefore dead wrong". This is your statement, not my conclusion!

 

If you want to compare capital gains tax rates, please construct a table and post it.

 

I removed some of the flames and bait in your argumentative post but will leave your post in place, on this occasion only. 

Your yourself posted some hours ago:

 

"Capital Gains in Thailand is charged at PIT rates which start at 5%. Capital Gains in the UK (excl property) starts at 10%, in the US at 15% and in the EU average 18%. "

 

So you yourself were talking about capital gains rate.

 

We were explicitly talking about capital gains rate as again 95% of expats do not have any working income in TH that would quailfy under PIT (working not allowed) but a lot have capital income.

 

As mentioned by other posters as well, Thailand taxes capital gains higher then most other countries and has in addition a low threshold where taxes kick in.

Posted

 


Social Security Benefits taxable in Thailand or not?

 

https://www.rd.go.th/english/37749.html#section42
Section 42 The assessable income of the following categories shall be exempt for the purpose of income tax calculation:
...
25) Compensatory benefit received by the taxpayer from the social security fund under the law governing social security

 

What exactly is a "Compensatory benefit" under the law governing social security?

 

https://thailand.acclime.com/guides/social-security-explained/

An insured person is entitled to receive the following benefits:

    Injury or sickness benefits, including health promotion and disease prevention
    Maternity benefits
    Disability benefits
    Death benefits
    Child benefits
    Old-age benefits
    Unemployment benefits, except for an insured person under section 39

Would "Old-age benefits" qualify a Compensatory benefits?
If so, would similar benefits received by a foreigner from a social security insurance abroad be treated equal?

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