Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part I

[Letseng]

17 hours ago, MartinBangkok said:

I'm running. Moving to another SE-Asian country first week of April. This after 15 years living in Thailand, spending approximately 2.1 million Baht a year (about 70% of my foreign income) in this country (multiple BMWs, Ducatis, Hondas, not to mention local girls, restaurants, nightlife, golf!)

After the new tax rules were announced last year I have completely stopped spending money in this country. For golf I now only go to the local navy driving range and pay 20 Baht for a tray of 40 balls instead of thousands to pay courses where Thais get to play for a fraction of the price, not kidding, it's the hidden truth.

There is zero chance I will ever pay the equivalent of 1 Baht tax to a country which gives me zero in return and where the only thing it gives me is a shocking amount of discrimination as a Farang. A month ago I was sent to Malaysia by my company for a 1 week assignment. What a wake up call. The people there (including government officials and police) so genuinly sincere and friendly. Another stratosphere compared to Thailand.

Bye Thailand (I recommend those of you reading this carefully consider if Thailand is still worth it)

How long can you stay in Malaysia tax free? 178 days I guess.

[UKresonant]

4 minutes ago, UKresonant said:

Oops 

 

[MartinBangkok]

6 hours ago, Ben Zioner said:

Not. Have you calculated the amount of tax @MartinBangkok  would pay to Thailand, for nothing in return? I have calculated what I would have paid over the past year and came up with a figure of 25%. If I didn't have LTR I'd be gone.

For me 27%

[FruitPudding]

6 hours ago, Yumthai said:

So basically, Thailand tries to copy the worst of the so-called developed world: wealthy people do legally not pay tax, the poor ones neither. Just milk the law abiding working-their-ass middle class to their death. No need to wonder why all this will not end well, globally.

 

 

Well, they've got to stop more of us crossing that barrier somehow,  lol

[JimGant]

6 hours ago, Ben Zioner said:

Have you calculated the amount of tax @MartinBangkok  would pay to Thailand, for nothing in return? I have calculated what I would have paid over the past year and came up with a figure of 25%

Ah, no tax credit with your home country? How much would you have paid on this same income to your home country? Nothing? Well, congrats. However, welcome to the interconnected world, where you now pay taxes to someone, for services of some kind rendered. This is why the OECD is re-writing its model tax treaties, no longer just to prevent double taxation -- but to prevent "no double no taxation." (Google it)

 

Hey, tax havens are disappearing is this interconnected world. But as a citizen of a country (US) where I still have to pay taxes (but no double taxation with Thailand, per DTA), I have no sorrow for those tax skates. And a lot of other countries still tax home country incomes. That Thailand, at the beginning of this fire drill on what's what on taxes said: "Show a home country tax return, and then don't worry about filing a tax return with Thailand," maybe that is what it will take. Sadly, no further word on this -- but it sure would put many worries to rest. And I bet we see this as the final word, for matters of simplicity. But, if you currently pay no country any taxes (and have no tax form to wave at RD) -- and  may now pay taxes to Thailand: Welcome aboard. Hopefully, a pot hole will be fixed with your money -- and save a tax complaining farang from a Harley headache.

 

 

[UKresonant]

5 hours ago, Yumthai said:

So basically, Thailand tries to copy the worst of the so-called developed world: wealthy people do legally not pay tax, the poor ones neither. Just milk the law abiding working-their-ass middle class to their death. No need to wonder why all this will not end well, globally.

 

That's reflects my comparison of UK and Thai income tax, I would get hit harder between 1 million and 2 million Baht assesable income remitted. ( no worries until more pension come online ).  

[JimGant]

4 minutes ago, MartinBangkok said:

For me 27%

 How much to home country for income generated there?

[Ben Zioner]

7 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Ah, no tax credit with your home country? How much would you have paid on this same income to your home country? Nothing? Well, congrats. However, welcome to the interconnected world, where you now pay taxes to someone, for services of some kind rendered. This is why the OECD is re-writing its model tax treaties, no longer just to prevent double taxation -- but to prevent "no double no taxation." (Google it)

 

Hey, tax havens are disappearing is this interconnected world. But as a citizen of a country (US) where I still have to pay taxes (but no double taxation with Thailand, per DTA), I have no sorrow for those tax skates. And a lot of other countries still tax home country incomes. That Thailand, at the beginning of this fire drill on what's what on taxes said: "Show a home country tax return, and then don't worry about filing a tax return with Thailand," maybe that is what it will take. Sadly, no further word on this -- but it sure would put many worries to rest. And I bet we see this as the final word, for matters of simplicity. But, if you currently pay no country any taxes (and have no tax form to wave at RD) -- and  may now pay taxes to Thailand: Welcome aboard. Hopefully, a pot hole will be fixed with your money -- and save a tax complaining farang from a Harley headache.

 

 

Well, and totally legally, I haven't paid any tax on my income in any country since 1991, and I might even continue to do so. If they hit me, I'll be visiting my family 179 days a year. I'll probably pay tax in France, half the amount I'd be taxed in Thailand, as France taxes the Family income not the individuals.

[Letseng]

2 hours ago, JimGant said:

Ah, no tax credit with your home country? How much would you have paid on this same income to your home country? Nothing? Well, congrats. However, welcome to the interconnected world, where you now pay taxes to someone, for services of some kind rendered. This is why the OECD is re-writing its model tax treaties, no longer just to prevent double taxation -- but to prevent "no double no taxation." (Google it)

 

Hey, tax havens are disappearing is this interconnected world. But as a citizen of a country (US) where I still have to pay taxes (but no double taxation with Thailand, per DTA), I have no sorrow for those tax skates. And a lot of other countries still tax home country incomes. That Thailand, at the beginning of this fire drill on what's what on taxes said: "Show a home country tax return, and then don't worry about filing a tax return with Thailand," maybe that is what it will take. Sadly, no further word on this -- but it sure would put many worries to rest. And I bet we see this as the final word, for matters of simplicity. But, if you currently pay no country any taxes (and have no tax form to wave at RD) -- and  may now pay taxes to Thailand: Welcome aboard. Hopefully, a pot hole will be fixed with your money -- and save a tax complaining farang from a Harley headache.

 

 

Don't forget in EU countries they deduct 35% tax at source from investment income. You can claim some back by doing income tax return. It isn't that we don't all pay no tax when not filing an income tax return in a home country.

[JohnnyBD]

7 hours ago, JimGant said:

Hey, tax havens are disappearing is this interconnected world. But as a citizen of a country (US) where I still have to pay taxes (but no double taxation with Thailand, per DTA), I have no sorrow for those tax skates. And a lot of other countries still tax home country incomes. That Thailand, at the beginning of this fire drill on what's what on taxes said: "Show a home country tax return, and then don't worry about filing a tax return with Thailand," maybe that is what it will take. Sadly, no further word on this -- but it sure would put many worries to rest. And I bet we see this as the final word, for matters of simplicity. But, if you currently pay no country any taxes (and have no tax form to wave at RD) -- and  may now pay taxes to Thailand: Welcome aboard. Hopefully, a pot hole will be fixed with your money -- and save a tax complaining farang from a Harley headache.

I agree with your comments. It seems to me, Thailand finally recognized there are lots of expats living in Thailand that have not been paying any income taxes on monies earned overseas, like those working in Saudi or the digital nomads working in Thailand. I don't know how successful Thaialnd will be collecting those taxes since it is by self-reporting on the honor system. Will the banks report all remittances to the Thai Revenue Dept? How will the Thai RD know how much someone brings into the country either by bank xfers, ATM withdrawals, etc.? My guess is that many expats will just continue not reporting their incomes.

[Seeall]

2 hours ago, Cult of the Sun said:

Taxation is theft.  You love your slavery.

Surely you got it all wrong. They spend it on all worthwhile causes like hospitals and roads and taking care of the needy. None. of the money goes into pockets of anybody who does not need it.

[JohnnyBD]

21 hours ago, Letseng said:

How long can you stay in Malaysia tax free? 178 days I guess.

I read where Malaysia is one of the no income tax countries for expats with overseas income.

[Letseng]

18 hours ago, JohnnyBD said:

I agree with your comments. It seems to me, Thailand finally recognized there are lots of expats living in Thailand that have not been paying any income taxes on monies earned overseas, like those working in Saudi or the digital nomads working in Thailand. I don't know how successful Thaialnd will be collecting those taxes since it is by self-reporting on the honor system. Will the banks report all remittances to the Thai Revenue Dept? How will the Thai RD know how much someone brings into the country either by bank xfers, ATM withdrawals, etc.? My guess is that many expats will just continue not reporting their incomes.

My husband recently needed a new ATM card. BKK Bank asked for his Thai TIN. 

[Letseng]

4 hours ago, JohnnyBD said:

I read where Malaysia is one of the no income tax countries for expats with overseas income.

I'd make 100% sure this is the case before I move. You require quite a bit of income to qualify for the Malaysian Mm2H permit to stay. You may as well apply for LTR visa in Thailand.

[Mike Lister]

7 minutes ago, Letseng said:

My husband recently needed a new ATM card. BKK Bank asked for his Thai TIN. 

Where was this?

[Mike Lister]

I'll cross post this for better exposure:

 

On a tax related matter.....

 

I am aware of some on and offshore financial advisors who are using the new tax rules as a means to promote their sales activities. Typically these involve videos and education in the new tax rules, accompanied by offers to assist with tax return preparation, at a fee. Some of these services are quite expensive compared to average costs for similar services of a tax CPA/company. The ultimate goal however of some of these businesses is to sell financial services such as insurance, life, health, investments etc.

 

A simple tax return should not require much assistance at all and can almost certainly be done without assistance or with the help of advice from members in these threads and from the local Revenue office. More complicated or involved tax returns may require assistance from a tax CPA, as far as I can see, the cost of this should be well under 10k Baht but will of course depend on the size of the firm and its location since charges vary dramatically nationwide. 

 

I would strongly recommend that, if you intend to use a tax consultant/CPA, for tax advice, that you employ one that has offices you can visit and discuss matters face to face and that you ask for recommendations and also shop around, just as you might for anything else you buy.

 

[jayboy]

18 hours ago, JohnnyBD said:

Thailand finally recognized there are lots of expats living in Thailand that have not been paying any income taxes on monies earned overseas,

 

No, the tightening up is aimed at well off Thais with overseas earnings.Expatriates (or those affected) have been caught in the slipstream and were not the primary objective.Expats with work permits invariably pay Thai tax anyway

13 minutes ago, Letseng said:

Will the banks report all remittances to the Thai Revenue Dept?

 

Very unlikely at least initially

14 minutes ago, Letseng said:

How will the Thai RD know how much someone brings into the country either by bank xfers etc etc,

 

They won't.As you note it's an honour system but one would be foolish not to maintain proper records.

17 minutes ago, Letseng said:

My guess is that many expats will just continue not reporting their incomes.

 

You are probably right.

[Letseng]

13 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

I'll cross post this for better exposure:

 

On a tax related matter.....

 

I am aware of some on and offshore financial advisors who are using the new tax rules as a means to promote their sales activities. Typically these involve videos and education in the new tax rules, accompanied by offers to assist with tax return preparation, at a fee. Some of these services are quite expensive compared to average costs for similar services of a tax CPA/company. The ultimate goal however of some of these businesses is to sell financial services such as insurance, life, health, investments etc.

 

A simple tax return should not require much assistance at all and can almost certainly be done without assistance or with the help of advice from members in these threads and from the local Revenue office. More complicated or involved tax returns may require assistance from a tax CPA, as far as I can see, the cost of this should be well under 10k Baht but will of course depend on the size of the firm and its location since charges vary dramatically nationwide. 

 

I would strongly recommend that, if you intend to use a tax consultant/CPA, for tax advice, that you employ one that has offices you can visit and discuss matters face to face and that you ask for recommendations and also shop around, just as you might for anything else you buy.

 

Good advice. Not sure how to find one.

[Letseng]

16 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Where was this?

Bangkok Bank @ Central Embassy branch.

[Letseng]

6 minutes ago, jayboy said:

 

No, the tightening up is aimed at well off Thais with overseas earnings.Expatriates (or those affected) have been caught in the slipstream and were not the primary objective.Expats with work permits invariably pay Thai tax anyway

 

Very unlikely at least initially

 

They won't.As you note it's an honour system but one would be foolish not to maintain proper records.

 

You are probably right.

As long as no proof of tax paid is needed  for immigration

 

[MartinBangkok]

2 hours ago, jayboy said:

"work permits invariably pay Thai tax anyway"

You are dead wrong here. 

[Mike Lister]

2 hours ago, Letseng said:

Good advice. Not sure how to find one.

You will almost certainly have noticed them before but just not paid attention because they weren't important at the time. They are all over the place, there are several in mini malls here in the North, also in business parks and smaller rows of shops. Tax, accountancy and book keeping all go together so you could try asking a business owner also.

[MartinBangkok]

3 hours ago, Letseng said:

My husband recently needed a new ATM card. BKK Bank asked for his Thai TIN. 

Tell the freaking bank you are looking for a bank, not a tax office, and leave!

[stat]

38 minutes ago, MartinBangkok said:

Tell the freaking bank you are looking for a bank, not a tax office, and leave!

If there is government regulation that demands the TIN there is nothing the bank can do... However I do not know if current regulation demands the TIN. With the upcoming of e-wallets with fiat money in the near future in TH for falangs I do no longer see the need for an old school bank account.

[beautifulthailand99]

On 3/16/2024 at 11:03 PM, Mike Lister said:

Your questions and my answers made me think about what I might do if I was The Revenue, so for humour value, try this:

 

I'd recognise that low compliance, avoidance and evasion, along with cash in hand, are key features of the workforce, there is no social responsibility ethos that compels people to pay tax. Any steps to improve tax collection have therefore got to be easily enforceable and an "escape proof trap", a bottle neck that everyone has to pass through and that can be reliably monitored and captured. All that points towards using the banks and electronic data capture to snare evaders/avoiders, it also points towards using other government agencies that are associated or linked. Revenue is able to tax exports/imports because they are company based and rely on annual returns that are audited, they also rely on Customs Department. Large companies are easily taxable because they have to prepare audited books and returns. Real estate is easily taxable because it relies on the Land Office. 

 

I'm pretty sure that if I was them, I would want to harness the other government departments to help me collect tax. IF foreigners were the target, which I don't believe they are, Immigration would be a key tool in all of that. Visa applications, extensions and departure/arrival are key bottle necks. Having said all that, I doubt that either department has the required levels of operational efficiency to make that sort of system work effectively, not for several years.

 

 

 

I remember when the Thai government during covid via an app gave 5000 baht or some such to Thai people but only if they had less than 500k in the bank. My wife and another friend who lived in England but were in Thailand at the time tried to get it. They downloaded the app, registered, but when they tried to get it they were barred with the 500k rule. As far as I understand, the 500k was aggregated, and she had less than that in a single account. So the Thai government had a handle on the amount in Thai bank accounts aggregated, was my conclusion. They probably got each bank to run a query against each Thai ID number - pooled the information ins a single file and ran the app against this look up. So they are quite sophisticated in what they know, IMHO.

[JohnnyBD]

50 minutes ago, stat said:

With the upcoming of e-wallets with fiat money in the near future in TH for falangs I do no longer see the need for an old school bank account.

As far as I know, expats will still need the old school Thai bank accounts for Immigration, to get their yearly extensions.

[stat]

2 hours ago, JohnnyBD said:

As far as I know, expats will still need the old school Thai bank accounts for Immigration, to get their yearly extensions.

You are in the right sorry,  bank account is still needed for Immigration if one goes by the externsion of stay. Forgot about it as I use OA Visas.

[jayboy]

9 hours ago, MartinBangkok said:

You are dead wrong here. 

 

Doesn't tax paid have to be proved at renewal time?

 

[quake]

Oops

[Letseng]

11 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

You will almost certainly have noticed them before but just not paid attention because they weren't important at the time. They are all over the place, there are several in mini malls here in the North, also in business parks and smaller rows of shops. Tax, accountancy and book keeping all go together so you could try asking a business owner also.

Thanks. Will keep my eyes open.