Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part I

[redwood1]

2 minutes ago, stat said:

I saw a document stating explicitly that losses will not be recognized. That did not make sense to me now and then but I fear for the worst, that they only want to tax your gains. Make sure you only transmit the loss making transactions and you should be fine.

 

I highly doubt (99.9999%) that you could make the claim for a higher value end of 2023 without having actually sold the UK property.

 

How can a income tax only recognize gains but ignore any losses of income?

[JontS]

Done some more reading and I have a more specific question now.

I've read the guide and if I understand this correctly, as long as the increase in price on my apartment took place before 2024, it will not be taxable in Thailand. There was a huge price jump in about 2020 when the appraisal process was changed. I would be able to document this with reports from the "cooperative apartment" complex I live in. I have not yet sold my apartment, but plan to do so later this year or early next year. This is the uncertain part for me, i.e. whether it needs to have been sold before 2024 or not. Any comments appreciated.

 

https://aseannow.com/topic/1324294-intr … e_vignette

 

48) The proceeds from the sale of a capital item such as overseas property, where funds are remitted to Thailand, is one popular source of expat funds, the sale of some investment products such as stocks, shares and bonds is another. Those proceeds typically comprise two parts, capital and profit (or gain). If the capital and/or gain was acquired before 1 January 2024, it is free of Thai tax. If they were acquired after that date, they are potentially subject to Thai tax at PIT rates.

[Mike Lister]

36 minutes ago, JontS said:

Done some more reading and I have a more specific question now.

I've read the guide and if I understand this correctly, as long as the increase in price on my apartment took place before 2024, it will not be taxable in Thailand. There was a huge price jump in about 2020 when the appraisal process was changed. I would be able to document this with reports from the "cooperative apartment" complex I live in. I have not yet sold my apartment, but plan to do so later this year or early next year. This is the uncertain part for me, i.e. whether it needs to have been sold before 2024 or not. Any comments appreciated.

 

https://aseannow.com/topic/1324294-intr … e_vignette

 

48) The proceeds from the sale of a capital item such as overseas property, where funds are remitted to Thailand, is one popular source of expat funds, the sale of some investment products such as stocks, shares and bonds is another. Those proceeds typically comprise two parts, capital and profit (or gain). If the capital and/or gain was acquired before 1 January 2024, it is free of Thai tax. If they were acquired after that date, they are potentially subject to Thai tax at PIT rates.

There are several issues here.

 

A capital gain is not realised until the asset is sold, until that time, there is no gain. The crystalised gain is measured against the purchase price, or in the case of Thai tax, potentially against the value on 31 December 2023, if that can be measured. It's fairly straight forward to measure the value of say investments that can be marked to market, as of a certain date, but the value of property on a particular date is much more difficult to assess.  

 

If the gain has been realised (as in crystalised) prior to 1 January 2024, both capital and gain would be free of Thai tax, if the funds were imported into Thailand. If the gain is realised after 1 January 2024, we do not know how the TRD will want to measure the gain, against what valuation point.

 

The next major obstacle is the way that TRD will treat the importation of the combined capital and gain, will they say that gain comes first, capital comes second or will they pro rata all remittances.

 

In both of these issues we need to hear from the TRD to understand what their preferred treatment will be of CG valuation points, relative to 1 January 2024 and also the treatment of the combined capital and gain, when they are remitted.

[JontS]

1 minute ago, Mike Lister said:

There are several issues here.

 

A capital gain is not realised until the asset is sold, until that time, there is no gain. The crystalised gain is measured against the purchase price, or in the case of Thai tax, against the value on 31 December 2023, if that can be measured. It's fairly straight forward to measure the value of say investments that can be marked to market on a certain date, but the value of property on a particular date is much more difficult.  

 

If the gain has been realised prior to 1 January 2024, both capital and gain would be free of Thai tax, if the funds were imported into Thailand. If the gain is realised after 1 January 2024, we do not know how the TRD will want to measure the gain, against what valuation point.

 

The next major obstacle is the way that TRD will treat the importation of the combined capital and gain, will they say that gain comes first, capital comes second or will they pro rata all remittances.

 

In both of these issues we need to hear from the TRD to understand what their preferred treatment will be of CG valuation points, relative to 1 January 2024 and also the treatment of the combined capital and gain, when they are remitted.

Thank you Mike

I guess I will have to wait and see, but there is no way they are getting a penny from me selling my apartment. We're talking about 10 million baht which is only the increase in price that happened in 2020. Then I will go back to my original plan and head for the Philippines insted.

But I also wonder, how can they find out where my money comes from? My plan was to keep my bank accounts here and just transfer regularly. I also have a considerable amount besides the money from my apartment.

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, JontS said:

Thank you Mike

I guess I will have to wait and see, but there is no way they are getting a penny from me selling my apartment. We're talking about 10 million baht which is only the increase in price that happened in 2020. Then I will go back to my original plan and head for the Philippines insted.

But I also wonder, how can they find out where my money comes from? My plan was to keep my bank accounts here and just transfer regularly. I also have a considerable amount besides the money from my apartment.

The answer to your question is, you have to tell them!

 

Your job is to fill out a tax return and tell them whatever you want to tell them, based on the funds that you import into Thailand. You can say what ever you like but you should be aware that if they decide to check, you will need to prove what you said and if they catch you out, the penalties are harsh. 

 

 

[JontS]

Just now, Mike Lister said:

The answer to your question is, you have to tell them!

 

Your job is to fill out a tax return and tell them whatever you want to tell them, based on the funds that you import into Thailand. You can say what ever you like but you should be aware that if they decide to check, you will need to prove what you said and if they catch you out, the penalties are harsh. 

 

 

Perhaps a solution is to invest the money from the apartment (as I'm planning on investing about half my money anyway), and leave it for years. I'm happy to pay taxes on any gains from the stock market.

[stat]

1 hour ago, JontS said:

Perhaps a solution is to invest the money from the apartment (as I'm planning on investing about half my money anyway), and leave it for years. I'm happy to pay taxes on any gains from the stock market.

I am not sure your initial gain from the appartment will ever "disappear" according to Thai RD logic even if reinvested. No one knows currently.

[JontS]

Just now, stat said:

I am not sure your initial gain from the appartment will ever "disappear" according to Thai RD logic even if reinvested. No one knows currently.

I guess I have will have to wait and see. There is always the option go to another country in SE Asia and live there, plenty of options if the Thai government doesn't want my money 🙂

[Lorry]

I have been following this thread since the beginning. 

Initially,  I wasn't very worried.  

Several "layers of protection" (as @stat calls them) would work very well for me. I wouldn't even need a DTA (I always suspected that using a DTA would be incredibly complicated).

But in the meantime I have learned from this thread how everything can (and probably will) be twisted by the RD:

 

Nothing (or less than 65000 monthly) remitted? A farang cannot live with that. (mentioned early in the thread)

Gifts from abroad? Only gifts inside Thailand may count. (@Etaoin Shrdlu had the most creative idea how to justify this)

Savings from before 2023, in totally separated accounts? Sorry, we cannot accept foreign bank statements. (look what a fuss immigration makes about Thai bank statements)

Not a tax resident? You have to file anyway,  for your remittances in years past. (See @4myr inquiring 1161)

190000 tax allowance if over 65? Oh, this is only for Thais (remember the BTS?)

 

There is no certainty whatsoever. 

I have started to produce necessary papertrails, it's a PITA. I didn't come to Thailand to enjoy bureaucracy.

 

The only certain way (taken by several members) is not being a tax resident, at least for several years until things are clearer. That's probably what I am going to do, too.

 

 

 

[UKresonant]

9 hours ago, JontS said:

Done some more reading and I have a more specific question now.

I've read the guide and if I understand this correctly, as long as the increase in price on my apartment took place before 2024, it will not be taxable in Thailand. There was a huge price jump in about 2020 when the appraisal process was changed. I would be able to document this with reports from the "cooperative apartment" complex I live in. I have not yet sold my apartment, but plan to do so later this year or early next year. This is the uncertain part for me, i.e. whether it needs to have been sold before 2024 or not. Any comments appreciated.

 

https://aseannow.com/topic/1324294-intr … e_vignette

 

48) The proceeds from the sale of a capital item such as overseas property, where funds are remitted to Thailand, is one popular source of expat funds, the sale of some investment products such as stocks, shares and bonds is another. Those proceeds typically comprise two parts, capital and profit (or gain). If the capital and/or gain was acquired before 1 January 2024, it is free of Thai tax. If they were acquired after that date, they are potentially subject to Thai tax at PIT rates.

Unless you actually sold and repurchasedyour property prior to 1st Jan 2024 generating a new pricing point, I can't see how the interim valuations would be helpful.

 

When you sell your property, will Thai RD not request your home country tax docs

 

Probably, nearly surely, you should aim to not be Thai tax resident at the point of the property sale that generates the gain.

[JontS]

5 hours ago, UKresonant said:

Unless you actually sold and repurchasedyour property prior to 1st Jan 2024 generating a new pricing point, I can't see how the interim valuations would be helpful.

 

When you sell your property, will Thai RD not request your home country tax docs

 

Probably, nearly surely, you should aim to not be Thai tax resident at the point of the property sale that generates the gain.

I'm pretty sure the selling of my apartment will not be stated on my tax documents as it is not taxable here in Denmark.

I will evaluate the situation once there is more clarity on this and if it's an issue I will simply start my expat life in Philippines. I'm sure they will be happy to receive my monthly spendings and tax on gains for stocks.

[Haloids]

On 9/18/2023 at 10:27 AM, mikebell said:

But how will you live?  I save up my pension & send 5K UKP a number of times a year; will I be taxed on that?  I have 800K in a Thai bank & they tax the interest on that.  Is that reclaimable?

You can recover the tax paid on interest earned for savings in a Thai bank.   There is a process at the revenue department to reclaim this tax.   I have done it on several occasions. 

[stat]

2 hours ago, JontS said:

I'm pretty sure the selling of my apartment will not be stated on my tax documents as it is not taxable here in Denmark.

I will evaluate the situation once there is more clarity on this and if it's an issue I will simply start my expat life in Philippines. I'm sure they will be happy to receive my monthly spendings and tax on gains for stocks.

There is no tax on "gains for stocks" in the Phils 😉

[JontS]

3 hours ago, stat said:

There is no tax on "gains for stocks" in the Phils 😉

Thanks, Philippines start looking better and better. It was my original plan to go there anyway 🤗

[Dogmatix]

For those filing taxes, it's worth knowing about the system of tax deductions for shopping. For the last few years Thai governments have been offering tax deductions for shopping.  It started off at 30k but for the 2024 tax year it was increased to 50k.  You need a tax receipt and from this year it was necessary to buy from a retailer registered in the e-tax receipt system which all the big ones are.  Last year I got e-tax receipts, even though that wasn't yet compulsory.  When I did my tax return online last month the shopping tax deduction just popped up automatically.   If you are married and opt for joint filing, you both get the 50k deduction but the spouse's tax receipts must be in her name.  To get the tax receipts take along your passport and evidence of your TIN.  This year's scheme ran from 1 Jan to 15 Feb. So the next opportunity will probably be next January for the 2025 tax year.

[mikebell]

20 hours ago, Haloids said:

You can recover the tax paid on interest earned for savings in a Thai bank.   There is a process at the revenue department to reclaim this tax.   I have done it on several occasions. 

Is it complex?  Where would I start?  The bank?

[Mike Lister]

7 minutes ago, mikebell said:

Is it complex?  Where would I start?  The bank?

No, it's very straight forward.

 

Go to your bank and ask them for a certificate of tax withheld and interest paid on your accounts, they are used to this request hence it should be very simple.

 

Take the certificate to the local District Revenue office and tell them you want to reclaim the tax paid, you can only do this between January 1 and March 31 each year (this is tax filing season for the previous year)

 

Be prepared to prove you are a year round resident, your visa and passport will suffice.

 

Also be prepared that they MAY want you to obtain a TIN first, if they do, they will tell  you how to do this.

 

 

 

 

[scottiejohn]

11 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Go to your bank and ask them for a certificate of tax withheld and interest paid on your accounts, they are used to this request hence it should be very simple.

How many back years can you claim?

[JimGant]

On 4/26/2024 at 3:14 PM, Dogmatix said:

Our accountant has always said their was no need for them file because they have no tax to pay.  Perhaps I need to check she is still of this opinion.

Don't ask a logical question -- if you can't stand a stupid answer.

[JimGant]

On 4/27/2024 at 2:53 AM, Mike Lister said:

A member asked in another thread (now unfortunately closed):

 

"please explain how the Thai tax authorities can differentiate between income and savings in an Australian bank account".

 

The answer is, they can't and they won't, it's not their role to do that, that's your job!

 

YOU have to declare on a tax return, exactly what the funds represent, savings or income. If you say savings, and only you know, you must be prepared to prove that fact with documentation, if subsequently asked

Which leads to the question: When does income deposited into a savings account -- become savings? For me, all my monthly income is deposited net into my savings account, after "withholding at source" taxes are removed. Thus, this income is now "after tax" income, or so called "disposable income." And, per Google (who else), disposable income is divvied up three ways: Expenditures; Investments; or Savings. So, after I use part of this money to pay bills, and part to send to my broker for investments -- what's left in the account is savings. And then I remit these savings to Thailand. Taxable by Thailand? Nope, as they're only interested in remitted foreign income, not savings.

 

Obviously, such an observation could lead to a lively discussion with Thai RD authorities. But, I wonder -- since we've heard several iterations of the: "If home country taxes it, we're not interested in taxing it when remitted" -- that Thailand is just concluding that, yeah, if home country is taxing it, what we're seeing remitted is no longer income, but now savings. So, no longer assessable income.

 

Anyway, one more conjecture on a boring day, on a 269 page thread. But, for Yanks, one more check mark in the plus column, that since all your income will be taxed by Uncle, that such income will have evolved to "savings" when remitted to Thailand. So, not assessable by Thailand. Yawn.

[Mike Lister]

1 hour ago, JimGant said:

Which leads to the question: When does income deposited into a savings account -- become savings? For me, all my monthly income is deposited net into my savings account, after "withholding at source" taxes are removed. Thus, this income is now "after tax" income, or so called "disposable income." And, per Google (who else), disposable income is divvied up three ways: Expenditures; Investments; or Savings. So, after I use part of this money to pay bills, and part to send to my broker for investments -- what's left in the account is savings. And then I remit these savings to Thailand. Taxable by Thailand? Nope, as they're only interested in remitted foreign income, not savings.

 

Obviously, such an observation could lead to a lively discussion with Thai RD authorities. But, I wonder -- since we've heard several iterations of the: "If home country taxes it, we're not interested in taxing it when remitted" -- that Thailand is just concluding that, yeah, if home country is taxing it, what we're seeing remitted is no longer income, but now savings. So, no longer assessable income.

 

Anyway, one more conjecture on a boring day, on a 269 page thread. But, for Yanks, one more check mark in the plus column, that since all your income will be taxed by Uncle, that such income will have evolved to "savings" when remitted to Thailand. So, not assessable by Thailand. Yawn.

If home country taxes have been satisfied and the funds reside in a savings account, the funds are savings as far as the home country is concerned. Will the TRD want to undertake a forensic audit to determine their origin.....why would they? Perhaps the sniff test requires those funds to reside in a savings account until the following tax year, thereafter there can be no debate....in my mind at least.

[stat]

On 5/1/2024 at 11:11 AM, JontS said:

Thanks, Philippines start looking better and better. It was my original plan to go there anyway 🤗

Same for me. Not sure if I will like it though but will see when I am moving there. No big deal to move to Thailand if I do not like the Phils.

[JontS]

51 minutes ago, stat said:

Same for me. Not sure if I will like it though but will see when I am moving there. No big deal to move to Thailand if I do not like the Phils.

Been going back and forth, but Thailand won because of food, accomodation, infrastructure and stability of things such as internet and power, but I'm sure I could find a nice spot in the Philippines 🙂

[Lorry]

12 hours ago, scottiejohn said:

How many back years can you claim?

3 

 

[keefryan]

 

latest news from people who seem to be in the know regarding UK expats.  Opinions pls.   

[mikebell]

23 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

No, it's very straight forward.

 

Go to your bank and ask them for a certificate of tax withheld and interest paid on your accounts, they are used to this request hence it should be very simple.

 

Take the certificate to the local District Revenue office and tell them you want to reclaim the tax paid, you can only do this between January 1 and March 31 each year (this is tax filing season for the previous year)

 

Be prepared to prove you are a year round resident, your visa and passport will suffice.

 

Also be prepared that they MAY want you to obtain a TIN first, if they do, they will tell  you how to do this.

 

 

 

 

Thank you so much for taking the time for this helpful answer.

[Rampant Rabbit]

Time for a  Poll how many will ignore  all of  this, how many will rush to get a tax  number, how  many will leave , how many will leave for 6  months, how many have no idea about this at all as many dont read Thai Visa etc Im betting most will ignore it until something happens and even more have no idea

[Mike Lister]

1 hour ago, Rampant Rabbit said:

Time for a  Poll how many will ignore  all of  this, how many will rush to get a tax  number, how  many will leave , how many will leave for 6  months, how many have no idea about this at all as many dont read Thai Visa etc Im betting most will ignore it until something happens and even more have no idea

An excellent idea! Help us formulate the questions that should be asked and we'll run a poll. Here's a starter for ten!

 

Question: In light of the new tax rules that became effective 1 January 2024, what are you actively and seriously planning and intend to do in response?

 

- the planned rule change will be cancelled so I don't need to do anything.

- I'm not planning to do anything differently

- I will wait until next year to see what happens, before deciding

- I will not remain in Thailand for more than 179 days per tax year

- I am definitely leaving Thailand and will live somewhere else

- I will remit less money to Thailand, in order to avoid tax

- I will obtain a TIN but nothing more

- I will file a tax return

- I'm happy to pay my fair share and to pay tax in Thailand rather than mu home country

 

Anything else?

 

Poll now posted.

 

 

 

[EVENKEEL]

41 minutes ago, Rampant Rabbit said:

Time for a  Poll how many will ignore  all of  this, how many will rush to get a tax  number, how  many will leave , how many will leave for 6  months, how many have no idea about this at all as many dont read Thai Visa etc Im betting most will ignore it until something happens and even more have no idea

100% in agreement with your summarization. I'm in the ignore line as are most I'd imagine.

 

I have to give credit to our local expert here who pounds out full page responses daily. Not because I read any of it.

 

 

[rocketboy2]

51 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Anything else?

 

Will carryon regardless , just don't care, as will most likely be dead before they catch up with me.