Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part I

[jacob29]

50 minutes ago, Klonko said:

I doubt aggregating CRS data (AFAIK no tax information) solves the problem when my foreign untaxed income is 300% of my foreign taxed income (20% tax rate) 

Probably not, but this is a problem either way, and is more of a secondary consideration - for which there are established protocols (they shouldn't have to invent any new procedures, given all countries face this challenge).

 

I'm thinking of a slightly different situation from what you had in mind though. Where someone has savings accumulated over say a decade - and then become a Thailand tax resident and begin generating foreign income. I don't believe they will be able to repatriate money and claim it was from accumulated savings (rather than the assessable foreign income showing up from years during which they were Thai tax residents). If that assessed income has tax paid on it already, I agree there will be ways to show that.

Edited October 12, 2023 by jacob29

[Guavaman]

2 hours ago, freeworld said:

If you are living in Thailand and you give your salary to one of your children (I assume in Thailand), you are remitting income and will be obligated to declare and pay tax on it.

 

It is the receiver who does not pay tax on gifts (ascendant, descendant, spouse etc...)

I have been digging on this -- there doesn't appear to be any mention of the "Giftor" in the Gift Tax Law. 

 

 

 

 

 

[stat]

7 hours ago, ukrules said:

Even the O&G guys? There's quite a few of them and they only live here for one reason - no tax

O&G ? Always thought I was the only one who was a Thailand resident because of some favorable rules. ???? Everyone I know thinks I go to Thailand for the girls , ladyboys etc if only they knew ????

[stat]

3 hours ago, jacob29 said:

Proving money has been taxed is a compliance headache they may not want to deal with. That would require them to track what has been taxed, and make sure you don't claim against it twice. It would be much easier to aggregate the CRS data (worldwide income), data they have and can trust, and simply match remittances against that.

 

That would make it effectively the same as other countries systems, with possible reduction in tax liability if you don't remit the full assessed amount. Which means no new special compliance techniques have to be developed, they can apply existing systems that other countries use.

CRS data is aggregated data and cannot be matched with remitted money. Example trading 1000x10000 USD (Profit and loss is not part of CRS) shows as 10 Million USD revenue in CRS data. No way to guess how much was remitted or much is profit etc.

[ukrules]

3 hours ago, topt said:

You seem to be forgetting that this comes into effect from 1/01/24 which means the effect will not be seen until your tax return some time in the first quarter of 2025

I think pretty much everyone see it this way.

 

But if the rule changes on Jan 1, 2024 and of course nobody submits a tax return before Jan 1, 2024 then this rule would supposedly be in force before the tax return is due - just something to think about as we remember that it's all about how they interpret it.

 

So when they say Jan 1, 2024 - could they be talking about the tax return due between Jan 1 and the end of March 2024?

[Puccini]

10 hours ago, KannikaP said:

I disagree. 'Money coming into Thailand' means exactly that. How much I leave in my home country bank, give to charities, spend on horse racing, is none of their business. And after a visit to my local tax office, nothing about the source was asked, simply how much I transfer. 

If I understand you correctly you sre a forein tax resident in Thailand and during a visit to your local tax office in Thailand some time in the past a tax official asked you how much money you transfer from abroad to Thailand. 

 

That was it? What use did the official make of that information?

[Lorry]

1 hour ago, ukrules said:

I think pretty much everyone see it this way.

 

But if the rule changes on Jan 1, 2024 and of course nobody submits a tax return before Jan 1, 2024 then this rule would supposedly be in force before the tax return is due - just something to think about as we remember that it's all about how they interpret it.

 

So when they say Jan 1, 2024 - could they be talking about the tax return due between Jan 1 and the end of March 2024?

No, they couldn't. 

Read the order 161/2566 sec3: "for assessable  income brought into Thailand from 1 January 2024 onwards"

[Puccini]

2 hours ago, Puccini said:

If I understand you correctly you sre a forein tax resident in Thailand and during a visit to your local tax office in Thailand some time in the past a tax official asked you how much money you transfer from abroad to Thailand. 

 

That was it? What use did the official make of that information?

After reading your subsequent posts it is now clear to that your tax office put your tranfers to Thailand on the line for assessable income on your tax return. Puzzle solved, and you were happy with that.

[KannikaP]

7 hours ago, Puccini said:

If I understand you correctly you sre a forein tax resident in Thailand and during a visit to your local tax office in Thailand some time in the past a tax official asked you how much money you transfer from abroad to Thailand. 

 

That was it? What use did the official make of that information?

Yes you understand my recent posts correctly. It was only yesterday I visited the local tax office, explained my situation of living here permanently, transferring 40k every month to my Bkk Bank for Immigration purposes. He proceeded to issue me with a Tax Number with the same number as my Pink Card, , filled in an online form and produced a tax assessment for last year on which I had to pay Bht 200, with an estimate of 4000 for 2023. I had showed him my bank book with the transfer entries.

[KannikaP]

9 hours ago, stat said:

I assume you went to a small tax office in the sticks? They will not have a clue about anything. Another thing is however if they can make up their rules in your place and you have to follow them.

If Bang Rakam, (population over 18000) a sub district and 20km from Phitsanulok is 'out in the sticks' then yes, you are correct. But I think not. The man was very positive about the current and forthcoming rules. He will be the only person I shall have to deal with in the future.

[jerrymahoney]

1 minute ago, KannikaP said:

If Bang Rakam, (population over 18000) a sub district and 20km from Phitsanulok is 'out in the sticks' then yes, you are correct. But I think not. The man was very positive about the current and forthcoming rules. He will be the only person I shall have to deal with in the future.

Some of all this reminds me of the Walt Kelly Pogo cartoon line:

 

We Have Met the Enemy and He Is Us

[KannikaP]

1 minute ago, jerrymahoney said:

Some of all this reminds me of the Walt Kelly Pogo cartoon line:

 

We Have Met the Enemy and He Is Us

Totally confused, please explain.

Never heard ' Some of all this' before.

[KannikaP]

10 hours ago, Dogmatix said:

Thanks. So it's possible or was a few years ago.

Easy for him, Neeranam is half Thai.

Edited October 13, 2023 by KannikaP

[jerrymahoney]

3 minutes ago, KannikaP said:

Totally confused, please explain.

Never heard ' Some of all this' before.

Some people on here -- obviously not you -- are their own biggest problems with their reports of the evil Somchai RD man and his up-to-me interpretation of the applicable laws and treaties.

[KannikaP]

4 minutes ago, jerrymahoney said:

Some people on here -- obviously not you -- are their own biggest problems with their reports of the evil Somchai RD man and his up-to-me interpretation of the applicable laws and treaties.

Agreed. After reading several tax documents, it all seems fairly straightforward to me. OK, my situation is a lot simpler than others but it is not University standard maths.

It cannot be any more complicated than say the UK system, or USA for that matter.

Some countries introduced a flat rate income tax of 25% and ended up getting more revenue in than previously, and a lot easier & cheaper to administrate.

Edited October 13, 2023 by KannikaP

[jerrymahoney]

2 minutes ago, KannikaP said:

Agreed. After reading several tax documents, it all seems fairly straightforward to me. OK, my situation is a lot simpler than others but it is not University standard maths.

It cannot be any more complicated than say the UK system, or USA for that matter.

Some people, for whatever reasons, may have need to seek professional tax/legal assistance. But I am leaning toward that, for the majority of retirees especially the 65+ crowd as I am, these things may be fairly straight-forward.

[Mike Lister]

7 minutes ago, jerrymahoney said:

Some people on here -- obviously not you -- are their own biggest problems with their reports of the evil Somchai RD man and his up-to-me interpretation of the applicable laws and treaties.

Ain't that the truth!

[redwood1]

18 minutes ago, jerrymahoney said:

Some of all this reminds me of the Walt Kelly Pogo cartoon line:

 

We Have Met the Enemy and He Is Us

Here is this thread

 

[Sigmund]

What is the next step ? Revenue Department in Swat Gear with velcro tags all over, confiscating tax money from farangs on arrival at the airports ? As it is money from abroad, if they want  to play with the system.

[Mike Lister]

16 minutes ago, Sigmund said:

What is the next step ? Revenue Department in Swat Gear with velcro tags all over, confiscating tax money from farangs on arrival at the airports ? As it is money from abroad, if they want  to play with the system.

I predict the next step will be the RD plugging the holes and stopping the workarounds created by those people who don't follow the rules. Those things will cause everyone additional pain which is nearly always the case when changes are made to anything that affects expats.

[HuskerDo2]

On 9/17/2023 at 10:58 PM, seajae said:

so does this mean all incoming money transfers from abroad, if so will they will be taxing pensions as well when they are transferred from other countries, sounds more like a huge money grab by the government if it does, they should only be able to tax money earnt from Thailand not savings etc that were/are earned in other countries. This will be challenged as it is outright theft if the money has nothing to do with Thailand earnings, only the country where it is earned or banked have the right to any taxes from it, the finer details are needed to make sure what they plan to do is legal and not jut a way to rip farangs off 

"they should only be able to tax money earnt from Thailand not savings etc that were/are earned in other countries"......

 

Don't be so sure. They can create a new tax category that will allow them to tax anything they want. Currently the agreement with the US does not allow double taxation on income BUT that doesn't mean they can't create a new tax category for money transferred into the country. At that point, ATM withdrawals would be the only alternative to avoid taxation as they can't track those.  

[TroubleandGrumpy]

On 10/11/2023 at 3:44 PM, Mike Lister said:

You confuse visa and tax residency. Anyone who remains in almost any country for more than 180 days, is tax resident. Visa's are a totally separate issue. But I do agree we are not Residents, we are resident perhaps but because of the long stay visa issue, we are not Residents, not that that changes the tax position..

You seem to have a bee in your bonnet about Residency Mike - did you apply and get rejected. Or is it just that you are on a one man crsade to stop people using the wrong technical term ????  I suggest you just let it go mate. People say the wrong thing about extending their 'Visa' when of course it is their Permission to Stay. Correcting what others say all the time is not a good sign. 

You might be happy to pay income taxes in Thailand - and you can claim that lodiging a tax return in Thailand will be all fairy floss and unicorns - but most of us disagree.  And please dont correct me and say there are no unicorns in Thailand - you (should) know what I mean.     

[KannikaP]

1 hour ago, Sigmund said:

What is the next step ? Revenue Department in Swat Gear with velcro tags all over, confiscating tax money from farangs on arrival at the airports ? As it is money from abroad, if they want  to play with the system.

Will they take tax from the Bht 20000 you are supposed to have when entering the country? 555

[jerrymahoney]

Sometimes you just do things for what make sense at the time -- and it turns out way down the road they make sense for totally different reasons.

 

At age 65 I re-structured all my finances to dovetail with the 65K+ monthly deposit for the extension via retirement option. And it turns out, having done that, it sets me up quite well for any possible exposure to the newly instigated tax regime here in Thailand.

Edited October 13, 2023 by jerrymahoney

[Mike Lister]

32 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

You seem to have a bee in your bonnet about Residency Mike - did you apply and get rejected. Or is it just that you are on a one man crsade to stop people using the wrong technical term ????  I suggest you just let it go mate. People say the wrong thing about extending their 'Visa' when of course it is their Permission to Stay. Correcting what others say all the time is not a good sign. 

You might be happy to pay income taxes in Thailand - and you can claim that lodiging a tax return in Thailand will be all fairy floss and unicorns - but most of us disagree.  And please dont correct me and say there are no unicorns in Thailand - you (should) know what I mean.     

I believe very strongly that using the correct nomenclature helps everyone not become confused regarding what the speaker/author is trying to convey. The problem is, one person starts off using the wrong term which others begin to use also and when somebody tries to apply the correct term, it causes even more confusion.......like you and me, like now! As you correctly point out, visa aren't renewed they are extended yet in hundreds of conversations in this and other similar forums, for many years, lots of people thought that their visa's were being renewed. So when a conversation arose about what visa a person was on, they replied incorrectly and became yet more confused. 

 

Regarding what is a Resident. Try going to Immigration in Thailand and begin the conversation by telling the I/O that you're  a Thai Resident and watch for the smile/smirk. Tell that same person you reside here or are a resident and all should be well. Tell us that you are Thailand Resident and we''l think you have been granted citizenship and will judge your words accordingly. If using the correct term/word to avoid that confusion is too difficult or irks you, consider putting my posts on ignore because as I knew from the very outset, that's where yours are going any minute now, mate!

 

As for filing a tax return being easy in Thailand, it is, I've filed several and it's very simple, how many have you filed and why have you found it so difficult?

 

 

[Rimmer]

An off-topic post in violation of our Community Standards has been removed.

[freeworld]

14 hours ago, Neeranam said:

I was actually joking but so many question unanswered. 

For example, if I have income in Thailand and income abroad, why couldn't I gift my foreign salary to my children? 

OK sorry missed the joke.

 

You can gift your foreign salary and local/foreign income, I don't think there is any restriction on doing that.

[The Cyclist]

What is the purpose of DTA's ?
 

If the answer is to ensure that people are not double taxed on the same income, most people will be fine.

 

If the alternative answer is, that they were made up by bored bureaucrats and not worth the paper they are written on, then we will all have problems.

 

If you are a tax dodger, your dodging days are coming to end, certainly in Thailand.

[Yumthai]

19 hours ago, KannikaP said:

The tax officer seemed to think it will apply to me as well

Tax officer is right if your income comes from pension.

By deducting 100K expense in addition of your other allowances you will then have no tax to pay.

 

You can deduct expense (50% but not exceeding 100K baht) on Assessable Income Under Section 40 (1) (2): salary, wage, per diem, bonus, bounty, gratuity, pension, rent allowance, employer-provided rent-free lodging, debt liability paid by your employer, and any money, property or benefit you received in connection to your employment.

 

You can also deduct expense (50% but not exceeding 100K baht or you may choose to deduct the actual expenses) on Assessable Income Under Section 40 (3): income from annuity, or income derived from a will, juristic act, or court decision, income from royalties, copyright, goodwill or any other rights of similar nature

[KannikaP]

3 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

Tax officer is right if your income comes from pension

How will the Taxman know where any money I transfer via Wise, come from please?

Shall I have to show him all my UK Bank accounts?