Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part I

[Geir Rasch]

11 hours ago, thaibreaker said:

A better link for you here. Updated, and it shows 0 percent taxes up to 250.000 NOK pension, for 2023.

65.000 baht a month should equal around 235.000 NOK a year.

 

That's my reality, as well as others with similar income, for me by choice (from 62 years old). 

Thailand can't compete with that. 

 

https://www.smartepenger.no/skatt/1905-skatteprosent-pa-pensjonsinntekt

Yes, as long as you are not voluntary member of Folketrygden. If you live in Thailand you are imposed to report your address to Folkeregisteret. As not living in Norway you are no longer part of Folketrygden unless you have asked for voluntary membership. If you are, then you must pay 7,4% of your pension regardless of the size of your pension. So for you to get 0 tax from Norway you must:
1. Not be a voluntary member of Folketrygden
or
2. Not reported that you live in Thailand, which you are imposed to do.
I hope for you that 1 is the correct answer.

[Geir Rasch]

8 hours ago, thaibreaker said:

Lol. It's you who don't know about taxes for lower income in Norway. Get down from your high horse, and read up. Start with the link above. It's never too late to learn something.

I must repeat you: Lol!
Ask anybody who might know me. Say my name and ask if I have any insight about tax, wether norwegian or thai. You might be surprised ????

[jonny on the spot]

7 minutes ago, Dogmatix said:

Of all the groups affected the real estate developers will have the most impact on Srettha for obvious reasons.  He is not going to care about expats because there are already exemptions for Elite and LTR visas and these are the only retirees they want.  The Thai stock traders are one of the target groups.  So they won't get any quarter.  

 

I can see an exemption for funds remitted by foreigners to buy condos or long leases transferred at the Land Department in the name of the foreign, i.e. not Thai wives' names.  There would be follow up to ensure the property was purchased and might be a minimum holding period of say 5 years like the LTFs and RMFs where you have to pay the tax saved, if you sell early, to prevent people bringing in a boatload of cash for a luxury condo and then flipping, paying only about 5% in tax instead 30-35%  This would take some time to draft and legislate.  So it might come after the new rule has taken effect puttin the market in limbo for a year or two. 

Thanks for the 2 answers, good man.

With my situation, i only care about the money i have here now, the money i have sent here over the last 10 years (in case they start some back dating ideas) and the money i need to bring here in the future. Which is all savings/property sales in London and Spain nothing i have earned here.

But my biggest fear is the inevitable <deleted> up they will make of this, the thousands of interpritations in each office or civil service employee i speak to. What constitutes proof of tax paid, this translation is signed in the wrong colour pen yada yada yada.

Its great in Thailand until i need to interact with any government agency.

[transam]

1 minute ago, jonny on the spot said:

Thanks for the 2 answers, good man.

With my situation, i only care about the money i have here now, the money i have sent here over the last 10 years (in case they start some back dating ideas) and the money i need to bring here in the future. Which is all savings/property sales in London and Spain nothing i have earned here.

But my biggest fear is the inevitable <deleted> up they will make of this, the thousands of interpritations in each office or civil service employee i speak to. What constitutes proof of tax paid, this translation is signed in the wrong colour pen yada yada yada.

Its great in Thailand until i need to interact with any government agency.

I wouldn't worry just yet, it is an idea, but when they start working on how to implement the idea, I reckon there will be a lot of head scratching....????

 

Just imagine the blokes that don't live here, but have a retirement visa for LOS in their passport, now if I were one of those, I probably would worry....????

[jonny on the spot]

5 minutes ago, transam said:

I wouldn't worry just yet, it is an idea, but when they start working on how to implement the idea, I reckon there will be a lot of head scratching....????

 

Just imagine the blokes that don't live here, but have a retirement visa for LOS in their passport, now if I were one of those, I probably would worry....????

True that. However wait and see as a plan has never worked out too well for me in Thailand.

But i suppose we will wait and see ????

[John Drake]

7 hours ago, jonny on the spot said:

They will buy whatever they are buying at retail, sell it half price and all from the comfort of 4km from their wooden hut.

What might happen instead is someone with a bankroll will give, say, 8000 baht in cash now in return for the 10,000 from the wallet to be paid in six months. 

[John Drake]

5 hours ago, jonny on the spot said:

In true Thai style, trouble is now he has said it also in true Thai style we got the problem of losing face with a reversal.

This guy has already reversed his campaign promises and laughed them off saying it doesn't matter. Could do the same thing with this tax policy too.

[thaibreaker]

1 hour ago, Geir Rasch said:

I must repeat you: Lol!
Ask anybody who might know me. Say my name and ask if I have any insight about tax, wether norwegian or thai. You might be surprised ????

The percent you pay as a member of Folketrygden, called trygdeavgift, is not 7.4 percent for pensions. It is 5.1 percent.

This is not included in the zero tax graphics in the link. The tax is zero percent up to 250.000. The trygdeavgift of 5,1 percent is considered more as a membership of all the goods Norway offer.

 

????That membership, I will personally do everything to keep that. It's voluntary if you live in Thailand, correct. It secures free health care and a lot more benefits.

 

Btw, I am sure you know a lot about taxes. I have never said different. But I found your first two post very condescending, and also not entirely correct in my case (with low income). There are more people who knows a thing or two.

Just saying.

Edited September 22, 2023 by thaibreaker

[jonny on the spot]

5 minutes ago, John Drake said:

What might happen instead is someone with a bankroll will give, say, 8000 baht in cash now in return for the 10,000 from the wallet to be paid in six months. 

Thats a very good point.

 

What kills me is the stimulation <deleted>, does anyone really think that Tong Chai with his flourishing village corner shop emporium is going to expand his business on the strength of one bumper week? Of course not, hes going to stock up the week before and the week after back to business as usual.

[No Forwarding Address]

Wow, 36 pages in four days, gotta be some kind of record..........speaking of which, why the worry, it hasn't been implemented yet because they haven't a clue on how to implement it.     I wait with abated breath.     peace

[jonny on the spot]

7 minutes ago, John Drake said:

This guy has already reversed his campaign promises and laughed them off saying it doesn't matter. Could do the same thing with this tax policy too.

I really hope so, this is the first thing that has really made me think in Thailand, i seldom post here, this <deleted> seems to have set me off ????

[Middle Aged Grouch]

Another good reason never to become a full time resident here and again Thailand will loose money from the high spending retirees who will change their residence status in Thailand and stay for shorter time.

[freeworld]

17 hours ago, clearance said:

So, for example, if I'm a foreigner who lives in Thailand on an Elite visa. In 2024 I'm planning to buy a house or apartment there. I will transfer money from my savings abroad. And they will tax me for 35%?

 

No, they will not tax you 35%  Banks are not the income tax dept. The bank may report the transfer to the treasury/amlo and Thai tax people (CRS) who will share the financial info with your home country tax office.

Edited September 22, 2023 by freeworld

[Middle Aged Grouch]

7 minutes ago, freeworld said:

No, they will not tax you 35%  Banks are not the income tax dept. The bank may report the transfer to the treasury/amlo and Thai tax people (CRS) who will share the financial info with your home country tax office.

The farangs who have not declared in their home country the purchase for their house in Thailand should start to worry and quickly sell.

[redwood1]

8 minutes ago, Middle Aged Grouch said:

The farangs who have not declared in their home country the purchase for their house in Thailand should start to worry and quickly sell.

 

Speaking of the housing market this tax turd would put the real estate market into a deep freeze as far as farang buyers go....Which is another reason I see this tax as dead on arrival .

Edited September 22, 2023 by redwood1

[Middle Aged Grouch]

6 minutes ago, redwood1 said:

 

Speaking of the housing market this tax turd would put the real estate market into a deep freeze as far as farang buyers go....Which is another reason I see this tax as dead on arrival .

Sure but in fact there is already a freeze in the real estate market as nobody is currently buying.

 

This may also be due to some crooked farang developpers who deliver badly finished condos or villas, in beach towns catering foreigners like Hua Hin, Phuket, Pattaya or within all the Koh's... !

 

In today's world, information  can globally spread like wildfire on social media with a simple click behind a computer, sent from a foreign country, regarding the incompetence in badly finished houses or condos that the crooked local or farang developpers sell off to naive foreigners.

Edited September 22, 2023 by Middle Aged Grouch

[Dogmatix]

1 hour ago, jonny on the spot said:

Thanks for the 2 answers, good man.

With my situation, i only care about the money i have here now, the money i have sent here over the last 10 years (in case they start some back dating ideas) and the money i need to bring here in the future. Which is all savings/property sales in London and Spain nothing i have earned here.

But my biggest fear is the inevitable <deleted> up they will make of this, the thousands of interpritations in each office or civil service employee i speak to. What constitutes proof of tax paid, this translation is signed in the wrong colour pen yada yada yada.

Its great in Thailand until i need to interact with any government agency.

I think anything you remit to TH before 1 Jan 2024 is home and clear but after that maybe not. 

 

What happens is that fill in your PNG 90 tax return which hopefully will be revised adding spaces to deduct DTA tax credits on overseas income by Jan-Mar 2025 which will be the first time you have to report this stuff (i.e. for the l2024 tax year) and you will pay tax based on that calculation, if any is owing.  Then they will send you a letter with a list of supporting documents you have to submit to the RD which will for sure include evidence of the sale of property or whatever generated the income and evidence of tax credits, if you are claiming any, all probably with certified and notarised Thai translations.  They will attempt to match the tax credits with the income to be sure there is a match which may only be the case, if you remit the exact amount you paid tax on.  They will have many reasons to reject your tax credits to be sure.

[jonny on the spot]

2 minutes ago, Middle Aged Grouch said:

Sure but in fact there is already a freeze in the real estate market as nobody is currently buying.

 

This may also be due to some crooked farang developpers who deliver badly finished condos or villas, in beach towns catering foreigners like Hua Hin, Phuket, Pattaya or within all the Koh's... !

 

In today's world, information  can globally spread like wildfire on social media with a simple click behind a computer, sent from a foreign country, regarding the incompetence in badly finished houses or condos that the crooked local or farang developpers sell off to naive foreigners.

Well whatever the cowboy developers didnt ruin will be dead  now this tax dogs dinner has been announced 

[transam]

3 minutes ago, Middle Aged Grouch said:

Sure but in fact there is already a freeze in the real estate market as nobody is currently buying.

 

This may also be due to some crooked farang developpers who deliver badly finished condos or villas, in beach towns catering foreigners like Hua Hin, Phuket, Pattaya or within all the Koh's... !

 

In today's world, information  can globally spread like wildfire on social media with a simple click behind a computer, sent from a foreign country, regarding the incompetence in badly finished houses or condos that the crooked local or farang developpers sell off to naive foreigners.

"Crooked farang developers", I think you best expand on that accusation...????

[jonny on the spot]

3 minutes ago, Dogmatix said:

I think anything you remit to TH before 1 Jan 2024 is home and clear but after that maybe not. 

 

What happens is that fill in your PNG 90 tax return which hopefully will be revised adding spaces to deduct DTA tax credits on overseas income by Jan-Mar 2025 which will be the first time you have to report this stuff (i.e. for the l2024 tax year) and you will pay tax based on that calculation, if any is owing.  Then they will send you a letter with a list of supporting documents you have to submit to the RD which will for sure include evidence of the sale of property or whatever generated the income and evidence of tax credits, if you are claiming any, all probably with certified and notarised Thai translations.  They will attempt to match the tax credits with the income to be sure there is a match which may only be the case, if you remit the exact amount you paid tax on.  They will have many reasons to reject your tax credits to be sure.

Bleak aint it

[Middle Aged Grouch]

1 minute ago, jonny on the spot said:

Well whatever the cowboy developers didnt ruin will be dead  now this tax dogs dinner has been announced 

Very true.

 

As mentioned before, many house owners from Europe, the UK, the US who have not declared their real estate in Thailand are going to be in some serious hot soup......mainly in France and the USA amongst others,  that have merciless and ruthless tax laws for their commoners....

[thaibreaker]

2 hours ago, Geir Rasch said:

Yes, as long as you are not voluntary member of Folketrygden. If you live in Thailand you are imposed to report your address to Folkeregisteret. As not living in Norway you are no longer part of Folketrygden unless you have asked for voluntary membership. If you are, then you must pay 7,4% of your pension regardless of the size of your pension. So for you to get 0 tax from Norway you must:
1. Not be a voluntary member of Folketrygden
or
2. Not reported that you live in Thailand, which you are imposed to do.
I hope for you that 1 is the correct answer.

It's 5.1 percent of pensions, not 7.4.

 

I never said I was living in Thailand. I wrote I was living in Norway. For me it's not a problem to balance the days between Thailand and Norway, so I won't miss out on the membership of Folketrygden, free health care and such. It's too valuable to miss out on.

 

My original post was aimed at the Brit who got a pension from Norway. I got the answer I was looking for, so I'm all good.

Move on.

Edited September 22, 2023 by thaibreaker

[freeworld]

26 minutes ago, Middle Aged Grouch said:

The farangs who have not declared in their home country the purchase for their house in Thailand should start to worry and quickly sell.

I don't think that owning a house is reported. It will be reported when there is buying or selling of the house and any financial transaction in and out of a bank account or if one has to report in their home country any immovable assets held outside their home countries. This is dystopian levels of govt control.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

19 hours ago, mokwit said:

No i don't remember them backing down on TM30, neither do the IO's enforcing it at extension time.

Years ago they started a 'campaign' and people who had spent one day in a hotel were being fined when the Hotel did not submit the TM30, and again when they did not do the TM28 or TM30 when they got back home.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

56 minutes ago, jonny on the spot said:

I really hope so, this is the first thing that has really made me think in Thailand, i seldom post here, this <deleted> seems to have set me off ????

Ditto - I joined to 'get involved' because of this issue. I have always looked here and there for information, but this one got me going. And I must say guys - I have received a lot of good information - some irrelevant, some wrong, some correct, and some very pertinent to me - but mostly it has been information that I need to think about and check out further. Cheers.

[jonny on the spot]

53 minutes ago, Middle Aged Grouch said:

Very true.

 

As mentioned before, many house owners from Europe, the UK, the US who have not declared their real estate in Thailand are going to be in some serious hot soup......mainly in France and the USA amongst others,  that have merciless and ruthless tax laws for their commoners....

Sorry to be stupid, do you mean i should declare my houses in Thailand to the Thais, or the UK?

[TroubleandGrumpy]

If I may put this here - this is my situation in the matter - and this might be relevant to other Aussies (and others) in a similar situation.

I am a tax resident of Thailand, because I am here over 180 days every year.  Therefore I am liable to pay income tax on any money earned overseas, anywhere in the world.  I am also a tax resident of Australia, because I am a Citizen and have money in a Superanuation Fund that is taxed by the Australian Tax Office (ATO).

My Age Pension (in fact any Government payment) is specifically excluded from being taxed by Thailand, in the Tax Agreement (TA) between the two countries.  And in every other with other countries that I looked at randomly, Governmment payments are not taxable in Thailand.  I would check that out for yours.

Australia | The Revenue Department (English Site) (rd.go.th) 

In addition to the Pension, I have before, and will in the future, take some funds out and place that in an Aust bank account, and then transfer that to my bank account in Thailand.  That is the concern, because 'technically' the interest earned in my Super Fund is 'assessable income' for tax purposes - when it is remitted to Thailand.

My 'technical' tax obligation to Thailand under the TA requires that it applies to the interest earned, and that the tax that I paid to the Australian Tax Office for that, is offset against what tax could be applied in Thailand.

Aust Super Funds do not pay earned interest on an individual level, it is done across the whole Fund ($Billions).  The Fund pays the applicable tax to the ATO, and then puts any 'earnings' after the tax is applied, back into everyone's account. They calculate and pay tax on the Fund level, and whatever is left over (or under like in the GFC) is credited or debited againsat each Member's account based on their percentage share of the Fund. 

As you can imagine explaining all that to Somchai the local RF Officer, and providing him with written proof that he would accept, will be impossible.

But having said all that khrapp, the question becomes when will the Thai RD know I personally have remitted taxable money into Thailand? Are they going to look at every bank transfer of every tax resident in Thailand? No!

IMO what the Thai Govt will do is require the banks to advise them of any incoming transfer amount over X Baht, and to advise them of any single person who has transferred over Y Baht into Thailand in any year.

Who knows what those amounts will be - 500K and 1 Million? 1 million and 5 million?  Either way, that is the key IMO to dealing with this. Find out those numbers and then keep transfers below the amounts that will draw the attention of the Thai RD.

I have calculated that the tax already paid in Australia is higher than the amount that would be taxed in Thailand, and therefore I do not need to lodge a tax return.  If I got that wrong, I am so sorry.

Will I be ever be audited and in 2030 asked to pay back taxes - I very much doubt it as the funds involved would not be worth their time. However, it could still happen, and I will cross that bridge when I come to it. It definitely makes me even more reluctant to buy a property in Thailand.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

1 hour ago, Middle Aged Grouch said:

The farangs who have not declared in their home country the purchase for their house in Thailand should start to worry and quickly sell.

Good point - anyone on a Government Pension/Payment and that has a bank account or property in Thailand should make sure this is known to the relevant authority in their home country. 

[jonny on the spot]

4 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

If I may put this here - this is my situation in the matter - and this might be relevant to other Aussies (and others) in a similar situation.

I am a tax resident of Thailand, because I am here over 180 days every year.  Therefore I am liable to pay income tax on any money earned overseas, anywhere in the world.  I am also a tax resident of Australia, because I am a Citizen and have money in a Superanuation Fund that is taxed by the Australian Tax Office (ATO).

My Age Pension (in fact any Government payment) is specifically excluded from being taxed by Thailand, in the Tax Agreement (TA) between the two countries.  And in every other with other countries that I looked at randomly, Governmment payments are not taxable in Thailand.  I would check that out for yours.

Australia | The Revenue Department (English Site) (rd.go.th) 

In addition to the Pension, I have before, and will in the future, take some funds out and place that in an Aust bank account, and then transfer that to my bank account in Thailand.  That is the concern, because 'technically' the interest earned in my Super Fund is 'assessable income' for tax purposes - when it is remitted to Thailand.

My 'technical' tax obligation to Thailand under the TA requires that it applies to the interest earned, and that the tax that I paid to the Australian Tax Office for that, is offset against what tax could be applied in Thailand.

Aust Super Funds do not pay earned interest on an individual level, it is done across the whole Fund ($Billions).  The Fund pays the applicable tax to the ATO, and then puts any 'earnings' after the tax is applied, back into everyone's account. They calculate and pay tax on the Fund level, and whatever is left over (or under like in the GFC) is credited or debited againsat each Member's account based on their percentage share of the Fund. 

As you can imagine explaining all that to Somchai the local RF Officer, and providing him with written proof that he would accept, will be impossible.

But having said all that khrapp, the question becomes when will the Thai RD know I personally have remitted taxable money into Thailand? Are they going to look at every bank transfer of every tax resident in Thailand? No!

IMO what the Thai Govt will do is require the banks to advise them of any incoming transfer amount over X Baht, and to advise them of any single person who has transferred over Y Baht into Thailand in any year.

Who knows what those amounts will be - 500K and 1 Million? 1 million and 5 million?  Either way, that is the key IMO to dealing with this. Find out those numbers and then keep transfers below the amounts that will draw the attention of the Thai RD.

I have calculated that the tax already paid in Australia is higher than the amount that would be taxed in Thailand, and therefore I do not need to lodge a tax return.  If I got that wrong, I am so sorry.

Will I be ever be audited and in 2030 asked to pay back taxes - I very much doubt it as the funds involved would not be worth their time. However, it could still happen, and I will cross that bridge when I come to it. It definitely makes me even more reluctant to buy a property in Thailand.

Somchai is my major worry , especially when he asks Jitravadee for her opinion, and explains that my pain in the ass to get translations have been signed at the embassy with the wrong colour pen.

Then on my next visit Somchai and Jitravadee are having a day off and now i got Tongchai, who aint that bright on his best day and today i can see his eyes going glassy because he has no <deleted> clue about any of this.

And on and on it goes.

[Thaindrew]

On 9/21/2023 at 10:20 AM, JimTripper said:

A lease on record for a certificate of residence? That has the rent in it right there. Did you pay tax on it?

did the landlord pat tax or VAT on it .... the implications are never ending