Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part I

[Mike Lister]

I’m not certain how accurate these numbers are but I think they are very close, let’s say there are about 10 million people who are registered with the RD. About 4 million pay tax on a regular basis, using pay as you earn tax payment schemes. The remaining 6 million or so is said to not earn enough to pay tax. That doesn’t mean they earn very little. On the contrary, many of them earn large amounts but are able to reduce their tax liabilities to zero through a combination of tax deductions, tax allowances and under reporting of income. In a recent post I set out how my wife has income of 600k per year (50k month) on fully reported sales of 1 mill. yet legally pays only around 1,000 income tax per year, as a result of generous tax allowances and deductions.

 

The remainder of the workforce (which comprises 38 million and includes foreign workers) don’t file a return and don’t pay tax. To summarise:

 

- 10% of the workforce pay tax regularly through employment

- 16% file a return but don’t pay tax (including some unreported income)

- 74% don’t file a return or pay tax (all unreported income)+-

 

The 74% includes the grey economy which has been estimated by various sources to represent about 48% of the workforce. That means that around 25% of the workforce (74%-48%) don’t earn enough to warrant filing a tax return. Almost certainly, many of those who do file a return but don’t pay tax are self employed (the largest tax status group) and don’t report all their sales or income and are also a part of the grey economy.

 

In 2010, revenue income from direct taxes was almost 20% of GDP, today it is close to 2% (see 2022 budget), the lowest in ASEAN. This has resulted from a string of populist policies and give-aways by successive governments over many years, along with a refusal to increase taxes or impose new ones. Government's refusal or inability to to better manage direct taxation means that budget revenue relies on indirect and other taxes rather than on income tax. Mostly, VAT, Sales Tax and Corporate Tax are the key contributors.

 

https://asiafoundation.org/2015/04/15/thailand-and-taxes/

 

https://dmcrth.dmcr.go.th/attachment/dw/download.php?WP=rUqjMT04qmqZG22DM7y04TyerPMjBT01qmIZAJ1CM5O0hJatrTDo7o3Q

 

So, if you were the Thai RD, which segment of the population would you target first, almost certainly you would go after the 74% which is exactly what they are doing and this includes us also. The question for each of us is, will you end up in the 16% group or will you try to remain in the 74% group, which will become increasingly more difficult, dangerous and costly to do, over time?

 

And when somebody says the average wage in Thailand is around 15,000 baht per month, who is included in that number? Certainly the 4% but almost certainly not the 10% and definitely not the 74%! Just food for thought. 

Edited November 26, 2023 by Mike Lister

[The Cyclist]

9 hours ago, Metapod said:

No, that isn't how it works.

 

You have a detailed breakdown of ' How is it all going to work ' ?
 

Then you should post it up here for everyone to read, digest and understand.

 

9 hours ago, Metapod said:

A DTA doesn't make you tac exempt.

 

Are you having some difficulties ? I never said a DTA makes you tax exempt, I never said anything, I posted a paragraph from the initial order

 

17 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

Also exempt will be those who have been taxed in a foreign country that has a standing Double Tax Agreement with Thailand.

 

The Thai Government / RD are free to make whatever exemptions they like as long as those exemptions comply with current DTA's.

 

The above statement seems to indicate that the Thai Gov / RD are actually going to go above and beyond the scope detailed in DTA's, by extending the scope of a DTA to cover any income that has already been taxed, rather than than only income specified in the DTA.

 

Certainly in the case of the UK - Thai DTA and I am not really interested in any other Countries - Thai DTA.

 

Put your thinking head on, rather than your chicken little head.

 

The rest of your comment is unfounded speculation that isn't even worth reading.

[Berkshire]

On 11/25/2023 at 8:49 AM, Mike Lister said:

That's not the way the tax system works in any country that has at least a reasonable semblance of an economy, tax is not deducted when it is remitted and then left to the tax payer to prove that it wasn't taxable in the first place, that's ludicrous. Thailand needs capital inflows and overseas investment, it's not actively trying to prevent those things! Nobody would do business in a country that operated that way and Thailand's economy doesn't need it to resort to such extreme measures, Yemen, yes, Myanmar, yes, Thailand, not a chance.

Have you ever worked in the USA?  I have and taxes do get withheld from wages/salary.  You can get some of it back when you file taxes....or end up paying more.  Income such as capital gains, interest, dividends, etc. do not get withheld and you'd have to report them on your tax returns.  I have no idea how the Thai gov will treat incoming fund transfers.  I believe that treating all incoming foreign transfers as income is ludicrous.  I hope saner and more rational minds will prevail.    

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, Berkshire said:

Have you ever worked in the USA?  I have and taxes do get withheld from wages/salary.  You can get some of it back when you file taxes....or end up paying more.  Income such as capital gains, interest, dividends, etc. do not get withheld and you'd have to report them on your tax returns.  I have no idea how the Thai gov will treat incoming fund transfers.  I believe that treating all incoming foreign transfers as income is ludicrous.  I hope saner and more rational minds will prevail.    

I lived and worked on the US for 15 years, why is that relevant. Most of not all employers of any size, here or on the US, deduct taxes from salaries, in the UK it's the PAYE system. What does that have to do with Thai banks deducting income tax from overseas bank transfers, that's not even remotely the same thing.

[Berkshire]

13 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

I lived and worked on the US for 15 years, why is that relevant. Most of not all employers of any size, here or on the US, deduct taxes from salaries, in the UK it's the PAYE system. What does that have to do with Thai banks deducting income tax from overseas bank transfers, that's not even remotely the same thing.

Not sure why you're arguing about this.  I agree that incoming foreign transfers should not be treated as income.  The point is the Thai gov may decide to treat it as income.  That's the point.  Understand?

[SportRider]

Here's an idea...

 

The UAE has a DTA with Thailand.  If you are economically active you could use a UAE company to pay yourself income.  Taxed - at 0% in UAE.

Then legit bring funds to Thailand as tax-paid.

 

 

 

[SportRider]

5 minutes ago, SportRider said:

Here's an idea...

 

The UAE has a DTA with Thailand.  If you are economically active you could use a UAE company to pay yourself income.  Taxed - at 0% in UAE.

Then legit bring funds to Thailand as tax-paid.

 

 

 

Another option possibly is to use the foreign company to pay you returnable 'loans' that dont count as income.

 

[Robin]

If the money you bring in ha s not been subject to any tax, i.e. is not taxable at the source, how does the DTA work?

For example, I bring in money from the sale of my house in UK, which has a capital gain, but exempt from UK tax as it is my 'principle dwelling'  Is that going to be subject to this Thai Tax?   That would destroy my retirement in Thailand plans, and probably for others as well

[Misty]

1 hour ago, SportRider said:

Here's an idea...

 

The UAE has a DTA with Thailand.  If you are economically active you could use a UAE company to pay yourself income.  Taxed - at 0% in UAE.

Then legit bring funds to Thailand as tax-paid.

 

 

 

 

I hope you are right. It isn't clear how this will work in practice.  For example, if you bring the income to Thailand and then need to file a Thai tax return to claim the foreign (UAE) tax credit against any Thai tax due, you might find you only get a foreign tax credit of 0%.  So you'd still owe Thai tax.

 

This is how it already works for US taxes, just in reverse.  There's a US-Thai DTA.  US taxpayers are taxed globally, so have to file US tax returns no matter where they are tax resident. US citizens who are Thai tax residents can claim a foreign tax credit against any US tax due.  If they pay 0% in Thai taxes on the income, they get 0% tax credit and still owe US taxes.

[DonniePeverley]

At the risk of scouring 142 pages can someone give an up to date summary ?

 

I remember India doing something similar a few years back - they just took at source at the banks. 

[Mike Lister]

2 hours ago, Berkshire said:

Not sure why you're arguing about this.  I agree that incoming foreign transfers should not be treated as income.  The point is the Thai gov may decide to treat it as income.  That's the point.  Understand?

Sorry Berkshire, I didn't mean to sound like I was arguing with you, it's just that your position wasn't entirely clear when I first read the post, far too quickly...I was in the physio office, waiting for my appointment and was trying to reply too quickly). Now I've re read it more leisurely I see we do agree, sorry again.

[spidermike007]

I think the headline says it all. Are you a tax resident? I am not. And do not think I will become one.

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, spidermike007 said:

I think the headline says it all. Are you a tax resident? I am not. And do not think I will become one.

So where will you spend the majority of the year?

[spidermike007]

Anyone who is wealthy or even affluent, would have little interest in retiring here. So, it is mostly about affordability. And I agree with that. It is reasonable here. Most of us live well, on a relatively modest income or pension. I plan to stay. But, a good part of this decision is financial, and ties to my Thai wife and family. If I were wealthy, my time here might be limited to a few months per year. 

There are at least a dozen good reasons why someone without our financial limitations would NOT pick Thailand. Do they need to be repeated? We all know what they are. And these are part of the reasons why there is a mass exodus of expats leaving Thailand over the past few years. No question the number of expats here is dropping.

 

I used to have more issues than I do now. I worked on my attitude, which was getting in the way of appreciating Thailand for what it is, and was clouding my experience here. Used to stress over stupid stuff, as you can see from some of my past posts. Used to allow the politics to make me angry. Now it is not something I take seriously, just something I comment on, without anger or an emotional investment. Now, I just tend to laugh it off. Spent some real time back in the US recently, and it allowed some clarity and perspective, that I am very grateful for. Now, I just chuckle at most of the nonsense. Water off a duck's back, so to speak.

 

Woe is Thailand. Where is the hope for the future? Just a few issues that an ex-pat would consider.


1. Overall, a declining quality of life.

2. An oppressive government that was not sincere about letting go of power. Ever.

3. High prices on most import goods and wine. Crappy selection of beer.

4. Rampant xenophobic on the part of the government goons and immigration.

5. A nation in reverse. No hope for a better future here.

6. Extreme timidity and destruction of the economy, many lives and businesses. Please, don't blame Covid. That was only one element.

7. Little in the way of good education available for kids.

8. The sanitization of Thai society, the elimination of anything that resembles character, and the tired, insincere, increasingly fake purity campaigns.

9. The continued environmental destruction and worsening air quality, coupled with no intent of effort to fix anything.

10. The worsening dependence on China. Will Thailand eventually be a communist colony?

 

11. The dinosaur creeps are moving this nation backwards at a breakneck pace. Truly regressive reptilian leadership.

[spidermike007]

1 minute ago, Mike Lister said:

So where will you spend the majority of the year?

 

Here, as I have for a long time now. However, I have never been a tax resident. And I do not plan on becoming one.

[Mike Lister]

Just now, spidermike007 said:

 

Here, as I have for a long time now. However, I have never been a tax resident. And I do not plan on becoming one.

You don't need to do anything to become a tax resident in any country, all you need to do is not leave. If you are in Thailand for more than 180 days in a tax year, you are automatically considered to be tax resident. Even though you may not want to be one, there's nothing you can do about it on the 181 st day other than to accept it is so.

[Berkshire]

16 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Sorry Berkshire, I didn't mean to sound like I was arguing with you, it's just that your position wasn't entirely clear when I first read the post, far too quickly...I was in the physio office, waiting for my appointment and was trying to reply too quickly). Now I've re read it more leisurely I see we do agree, sorry again.

No worries.  We want the same thing....just to be treated fairly!  :-)

[Berkshire]

4 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

6 minutes ago, spidermike007 said:

 

Here, as I have for a long time now. However, I have never been a tax resident. And I do not plan on becoming one.

You don't need to do anything to become a tax resident in any country, all you need to do is not leave. If you are in Thailand for more than 180 days in a tax year, you are automatically considered to be tax resident. Even though you may not want to be one, there's nothing you can do about it on the 181 st day other than to accept it is so.

Yeah, and if he has a Thai bank account and is bringing in cash from overseas, certainly a "tax resident."

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, Berkshire said:

Yeah, and if he has a Thai bank account and is bringing in cash from overseas, certainly a "tax resident."

Bank account or not, roof over his head or not, after 180 days he/we is/are tax resident(s) and there's zero that can be done about it.

[Celsius]

19 minutes ago, Berkshire said:

Yeah, and if he has a Thai bank account and is bringing in cash from overseas, certainly a "tax resident."

 

I have 2 bank accounts in USA, 3 in Canada and 1 in Serbia. I also transfered cash to all of them from overseas and neither country considers me a tax resident.

 

 

[Celsius]

What about international students in Thailand? If the parents send them money for school fees and living expenses are these taxable too?

 

Lol

[sqwakvfr]

45 minutes ago, spidermike007 said:

Anyone who is wealthy or even affluent, would have little interest in retiring here. So, it is mostly about affordability. And I agree with that. It is reasonable here. Most of us live well, on a relatively modest income or pension. I plan to stay. But, a good part of this decision is financial, and ties to my Thai wife and family. If I were wealthy, my time here might be limited to a few months per year. 

There are at least a dozen good reasons why someone without our financial limitations would NOT pick Thailand. Do they need to be repeated? We all know what they are. And these are part of the reasons why there is a mass exodus of expats leaving Thailand over the past few years. No question the number of expats here is dropping.

 

I used to have more issues than I do now. I worked on my attitude, which was getting in the way of appreciating Thailand for what it is, and was clouding my experience here. Used to stress over stupid stuff, as you can see from some of my past posts. Used to allow the politics to make me angry. Now it is not something I take seriously, just something I comment on, without anger or an emotional investment. Now, I just tend to laugh it off. Spent some real time back in the US recently, and it allowed some clarity and perspective, that I am very grateful for. Now, I just chuckle at most of the nonsense. Water off a duck's back, so to speak.

 

Woe is Thailand. Where is the hope for the future? Just a few issues that an ex-pat would consider.


1. Overall, a declining quality of life.

2. An oppressive government that was not sincere about letting go of power. Ever.

3. High prices on most import goods and wine. Crappy selection of beer.

4. Rampant xenophobic on the part of the government goons and immigration.

5. A nation in reverse. No hope for a better future here.

6. Extreme timidity and destruction of the economy, many lives and businesses. Please, don't blame Covid. That was only one element.

7. Little in the way of good education available for kids.

8. The sanitization of Thai society, the elimination of anything that resembles character, and the tired, insincere, increasingly fake purity campaigns.

9. The continued environmental destruction and worsening air quality, coupled with no intent of effort to fix anything.

10. The worsening dependence on China. Will Thailand eventually be a communist colony?

 

11. The dinosaur creeps are moving this nation backwards at a breakneck pace. Truly regressive reptilian leadership.

#12 Poor customer service. 

[Dogmatix]

On 11/26/2023 at 1:13 AM, Mike Lister said:

The subject is taxation, not politics, stay on topic.

You got off topic by making condescending remarks about people you objected to criticising this poorly thought out tax policy and suggesting they shouldn't be in Thailand, since only people who accept chaotic policy making should be here.

[JimTripper]

1 hour ago, spidermike007 said:

Anyone who is wealthy or even affluent, would have little interest in retiring here. So, it is mostly about affordability. And I agree with that. It is reasonable here. Most of us live well, on a relatively modest income or pension. I plan to stay. But, a good part of this decision is financial, and ties to my Thai wife and family. If I were wealthy, my time here might be limited to a few months per year. 

There are at least a dozen good reasons why someone without our financial limitations would NOT pick Thailand. Do they need to be repeated? We all know what they are. And these are part of the reasons why there is a mass exodus of expats leaving Thailand over the past few years. No question the number of expats here is dropping.

 

I used to have more issues than I do now. I worked on my attitude, which was getting in the way of appreciating Thailand for what it is, and was clouding my experience here. Used to stress over stupid stuff, as you can see from some of my past posts. Used to allow the politics to make me angry. Now it is not something I take seriously, just something I comment on, without anger or an emotional investment. Now, I just tend to laugh it off. Spent some real time back in the US recently, and it allowed some clarity and perspective, that I am very grateful for. Now, I just chuckle at most of the nonsense. Water off a duck's back, so to speak.

 

Woe is Thailand. Where is the hope for the future? Just a few issues that an ex-pat would consider.


1. Overall, a declining quality of life.

2. An oppressive government that was not sincere about letting go of power. Ever.

3. High prices on most import goods and wine. Crappy selection of beer.

4. Rampant xenophobic on the part of the government goons and immigration.

5. A nation in reverse. No hope for a better future here.

6. Extreme timidity and destruction of the economy, many lives and businesses. Please, don't blame Covid. That was only one element.

7. Little in the way of good education available for kids.

8. The sanitization of Thai society, the elimination of anything that resembles character, and the tired, insincere, increasingly fake purity campaigns.

9. The continued environmental destruction and worsening air quality, coupled with no intent of effort to fix anything.

10. The worsening dependence on China. Will Thailand eventually be a communist colony?

 

11. The dinosaur creeps are moving this nation backwards at a breakneck pace. Truly regressive reptilian leadership.

Mee too. If I were "really wealthy" there are some great castles on Lake Como. Goorge Clooney has one. The only reason I would be in Thailand in that situation was if I had some sort of sex addiction or perversion that could't be fulfilled at the nicer location. 🤣

Edited November 27, 2023 by JimTripper

[2baht]

1 hour ago, Mike Lister said:

You don't need to do anything to become a tax resident in any country, all you need to do is not leave. If you are in Thailand for more than 180 days in a tax year, you are automatically considered to be tax resident. Even though you may not want to be one, there's nothing you can do about it on the 181 st day other than to accept it is so.

So leave for a few days after 176, it's not rocket science!

[Mike Lister]

38 minutes ago, 2baht said:

So leave for a few days after 176, it's not rocket science!

And come back on what day?

[TravelerEastWest]

1 hour ago, spidermike007 said:

Anyone who is wealthy or even affluent, would have little interest in retiring here. So, it is mostly about affordability. And I agree with that. It is reasonable here. Most of us live well, on a relatively modest income or pension. I plan to stay. But, a good part of this decision is financial, and ties to my Thai wife and family. If I were wealthy, my time here might be limited to a few months per year. 

1. Overall, a declining quality of life.

2. An oppressive government that was not sincere about letting go of power. Ever.

3. High prices on most import goods and wine. Crappy selection of beer.

4. Rampant xenophobic on the part of the government goons and immigration.

5. A nation in reverse. No hope for a better future here.

6. Extreme timidity and destruction of the economy, many lives and businesses. Please, don't blame Covid. That was only one element.

7. Little in the way of good education available for kids.

8. The sanitization of Thai society, the elimination of anything that resembles character, and the tired, insincere, increasingly fake purity campaigns.

9. The continued environmental destruction and worsening air quality, coupled with no intent of effort to fix anything.

10. The worsening dependence on China. Will Thailand eventually be a communist colony?

 

11. The dinosaur creeps are moving this nation backwards at a breakneck pace. Truly regressive reptilian leadership.

Interesting how people see life differently I see Thailand as improving and a great place to live. Just for fun another perspective on your comments:

 

I live in the countryside and recently got 3BB fiber internet better than an old friend has easily available and he lives in the SF Bay area in a wealthy county.

 

Most governments worldwide have challenges just look at Trump...

 

Yes, imported goods are high priced agreed but I don't eat most imported freshly cooked food I love Thai food - one of the reasons I love Thailand. Thailand is known for some of the best food in the world.

 

I have never once had a problem with the Thai government or immigration in 20 years but I am polite and wear a tie.

 

Lots of hope for a better future look at the new political parties.

 

No idea what your point 6 means but sounds like your personal view about something that upsets you.

 

Good education is not free in Thailand but there are good international schools. Keep in mind US schools are mostly locally funded as I remember from property taxes. Great public schools in affluent areas and good private schools. Public schools in poor areas are not so good...

 

Lots of pollution problems worldwide nothing special about Thailand and they are trying to do better. Thailand is sometimes ahead of the curve example they outlawed public smoking before the US.

 

China does not influence everyday life and Thailand is historically very clever about international affairs let's see what happens.

 

Have no idea what you mean by dinosaurs If you mean rich old men who control a lot we have those in the us also maybe more?

 

In summary, there are some challenges living in Thailand - we are not in Kansas anymore - but it is an amazing wonderful country and I wouldn't live here if I didn't love it.

 

Point 8 no idea what you are saying...

[Mike Teavee]

52 minutes ago, 2baht said:

So leave for a few days after 176, it's not rocket science!

It’s the total number of days in the calendar year so if you do the 1st 179 days you would need to come back no earlier than Jan 1st the next year. 

 

Edited November 27, 2023 by Mike Teavee

[spidermike007]

43 minutes ago, TravelerEastWest said:

Interesting how people see life differently I see Thailand as improving and a great place to live. Just for fun another perspective on your comments:

 

I live in the countryside and recently got 3BB fiber internet better than an old friend has easily available and he lives in the SF Bay area in a wealthy county.

 

Most governments worldwide have challenges just look at Trump...

 

Yes, imported goods are high priced agreed but I don't eat most imported freshly cooked food I love Thai food - one of the reasons I love Thailand. Thailand is known for some of the best food in the world.

 

I have never once had a problem with the Thai government or immigration in 20 years but I am polite and wear a tie.

 

Lots of hope for a better future look at the new political parties.

 

No idea what your point 6 means but sounds like your personal view about something that upsets you.

 

Good education is not free in Thailand but there are good international schools. Keep in mind US schools are mostly locally funded as I remember from property taxes. Great public schools in affluent areas and good private schools. Public schools in poor areas are not so good...

 

Lots of pollution problems worldwide nothing special about Thailand and they are trying to do better. Thailand is sometimes ahead of the curve example they outlawed public smoking before the US.

 

China does not influence everyday life and Thailand is historically very clever about international affairs let's see what happens.

 

Have no idea what you mean by dinosaurs If you mean rich old men who control a lot we have those in the us also maybe more?

 

In summary, there are some challenges living in Thailand - we are not in Kansas anymore - but it is an amazing wonderful country and I wouldn't live here if I didn't love it.

 

Point 8 no idea what you are saying...

 

For many of us expats we have a very good life here, I was referring to the quality of life of the average Thai person, which is very difficult right now, they're not living on a pension, they're trying to make ends meet. 

 

As far as immigration goes, I have to assume that you're not here on a marriage visa, because if you were you would know how ridiculously difficult the whole process is, and how many hurdles they put in your way. I abandoned the marriage visa and went with a retirement visa, because I just don't need the grief. 

 

Point number six was about the previous administration sabotaging tourism, and deliberately trying to destroy the nightlife. That was not an accident nor was that about covid, that was diabolical and intentional. 

 

Point number 8 was about a bunch of goons who consider themselves to be holier than thou, trying to clean up the country. There's no question that they're trying to get rid of "the industry", and there's no question that they're trying to get rid of nightlife, clean the place up and make it into a family destination. However, in the process they are sanitizing the place and they're getting rid of some of the flavor that we love so much. 

Edited November 27, 2023 by spidermike007

[spidermike007]

2 hours ago, sqwakvfr said:

#12 Poor customer service. 

Some time ago when I was living on Samui I had an issue with an air conditioner that I had just bought from Homepro. I went into Homepro asking for service and got no satisfaction at all. I asked for the manager which is something that I usually do, when I am not getting anywhere, and she had a terrible attitude and was very unhelpful.

 

I got her name, went home, looked up the head office in Bangkok, sent them a quick email explaining the situation calling her out by name and within an hour I got a phone call from a vice president telling me that everything would be addressed, and he said that I should go back into the store the following morning. When I did I got a deep bow from the manager, I'm so sorry I misunderstood yesterday. What can I do to make you happy? It was the exact response I wanted the first time around but that I got after she had been scolded by the VP, and likely her job had been threatened if her attitude didn't improve.

 

Sometimes we just have to escalate things to a more senior employer or manager in order to get things done here, sometimes the fools on the floor just don't know what service looks like.

 

My Thai wife was shocked when I first started doing this, as she tried to explain to me that they do not have customer service in Thailand. I explained to her that they sure do! Now she realizes that service does exist, can exist, and will exist if the right amount of will, force and action is brought to the table.

 

I did not reach out to a VP. I simply sent an articulate note to the email contact on the website. And, it was responded too quickly. Might have helped that I added that I was averaging 100,000 to 200,000 baht a year in Home Pro expenditures with my hilltop villa, at the time. A VP took it upon himself, called me that day, speaking perfect English, and asked me if I would be kind enough to visit the store again tomorrow. 

 

I suppose with any service anywhere, it comes down to the approach one uses, negotiating skill and fortitude. I do not let these things go. You can lay down and die, like a submissive sheep in this life, or you can defend your dignity and put up a fight. 

 

I usually choose the latter. Don't consider myself to be a dog or a doormat, and prefer not to let others that I do business with treat me like either. 

 

My Thai wife has been astonished a dozen times when things like this have come up, and she has seen me wage battle. She just shakes her head and says great job. I had no idea!