Thai government to tax all income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, Kenny202 said:

Meaning?

A TIN (Tax Identification Number) must be applied for from the Thai Revenue before you can file a tax return. The poster might be hinting that if you never get a TIN, you can transfer the money and they wont know who you are so you wont have to pay tax or file a return. (like your Bank and Immigration don't know!!!))

[JimGant]

19 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

If you ask me about it, I will suggest that where the tax arises is key and fundamental. Income that is taxed at source in the country where the asset or source exists is primary, what comes afterwards is squabbling over differences. You sell an asset in the US and you pay tax at source, the IRS has possession. When you import those funds to Thailand and declare them on your Thai tax return, the Thai RD notes (potentially) that it is owed tax money on that transaction that has already been paid to the IRS. The TRD doesn't ask the taxpayer for the credit, it raises a request to the IRS and either gets paid or doesn't.

 

First and foremost, as least regarding US taxes, the only "at source" taxation I know of is for payments to non resident aliens. This is a final tax, with a fixed rate, which would make no sense for a US taxpayer, subject to a graduated tax scale. Thus, forget the "at source" stuff -- the US taxpayer figures out his taxable income via 1099 reports or from a spreadsheet, where sales proceeds minus basis, arrives at a taxable gain. At any rate, he files a tax return with this information.

 

Let's use my IRA annual payment (called a Required Minimum Distribution - RMD) as one example source of income. Per the DTA, if I remit this income to Thailand, Thailand has exclusive taxation rights on this income, and the US secondary rights, per the saving clause in the DTA. This will only show up on a Thai tax return -- if I so declare, as they won't know what part of my cash flow into Thailand from my bank account is assessable income. And Thai RD has no way of knowing whether or not I paid US taxes on this income, nor, probably what the DTA says about this income, i.e., whether or not it gets a US tax credit against it -- or whether the US gets a Thai tax credit against it. Again, it is my self-assessment in reporting this. And, per the DTA, with Thailand having exclusive taxation rights, I declare the whole amount as assessable income, i.e., not offset by a US tax credit. This is probably all, or most, transparent to Thai RD, who maybe has no interest in or knowledge of any related DTA. Or, maybe I just take Sherring's advice, and don't even declare this on a Thai tax return, since according to Sherring, as it's taxed by the home country, double taxation is avoided by just not paying Thai taxes on it (a spreadsheet would show US tax credits completely wipe out any Thai taxation).

 

But, if I follow the DTA treaty rules, I pay Thailand full fare taxes on this RMD, and take the Thai taxes as a credit against my US taxes. Again, this is all done with information I collect. Thailand doesn't send any information to the IRS. And they're completely oblivious to the fact that their taxes are being used as a tax credit on a US tax return. Why would they care -- it doesn't affect the taxes they collect.. Oh, I could even figure out what my Thai taxes would be on this RMD, long before I even file a Thai tax return, via a little spreadsheet work. Nothing official need be provided the US on this Thai tax credit. I just plug the numbers into Form 1116 -- and realize a one for one offset in my US tax bill, i.e., no extra taxes paid anyone in this scenario. But, the DTA rules are at least followed in this scenario.

 

Anyway, Sherring doesn't agree. But here's a better take on tax credits:

https://www.cpasforexpats.com/post/us-thailand-tax-treaty

 

Quote

The Thailand US tax treaty provides mechanisms for relief from double taxation, ensuring that income earned in one country by residents or citizens of the other is not taxed twice. To avoid double taxation, the treaty allows U.S. citizens to claim a foreign tax credit for the income tax they pay on Thailand sourced income to Thailand against their U.S. tax liability. Conversely, Thailand offers a credit for U.S. taxes paid on U.S. sourced income against it's own tax liabilities.

 

 

 

[Mike Lister]

5 minutes ago, JimGant said:

 

First and foremost, as least regarding US taxes, the only "at source" taxation I know of is for payments to non resident aliens. This is a final tax, with a fixed rate, which would make no sense for a US taxpayer, subject to a graduated tax scale. Thus, forget the "at source" stuff -- the US taxpayer figures out his taxable income via 1099 reports or from a spreadsheet, where sales proceeds minus basis, arrives at a taxable gain. At any rate, he files a tax return with this information.

 

Let's use my IRA annual payment (called a Required Minimum Distribution - RMD) as one example source of income. Per the DTA, if I remit this income to Thailand, Thailand has exclusive taxation rights on this income, and the US secondary rights, per the saving clause in the DTA. This will only show up on a Thai tax return -- if I so declare, as they won't know what part of my cash flow into Thailand from my bank account is assessable income. And Thai RD has no way of knowing whether or not I paid US taxes on this income, nor, probably what the DTA says about this income, i.e., whether or not it gets a US tax credit against it -- or whether the US gets a Thai tax credit against it. Again, it is my self-assessment in reporting this. And, per the DTA, with Thailand having exclusive taxation rights, I declare the whole amount as assessable income, i.e., not offset by a US tax credit. This is probably all, or most, transparent to Thai RD, who maybe has no interest in or knowledge of any related DTA. Or, maybe I just take Sherring's advice, and don't even declare this on a Thai tax return, since according to Sherring, as it's taxed by the home country, double taxation is avoided by just not paying Thai taxes on it (a spreadsheet would show US tax credits completely wipe out any Thai taxation).

 

But, if I follow the DTA treaty rules, I pay Thailand full fare taxes on this RMD, and take the Thai taxes as a credit against my US taxes. Again, this is all done with information I collect. Thailand doesn't send any information to the IRS. And they're completely oblivious to the fact that their taxes are being used as a tax credit on a US tax return. Why would they care -- it doesn't affect the taxes they collect.. Oh, I could even figure out what my Thai taxes would be on this RMD, long before I even file a Thai tax return, via a little spreadsheet work. Nothing official need be provided the US on this Thai tax credit. I just plug the numbers into Form 1116 -- and realize a one for one offset in my US tax bill, i.e., no extra taxes paid anyone in this scenario. But, the DTA rules are at least followed in this scenario.

 

Anyway, Sherring doesn't agree. But here's a better take on tax credits:

https://www.cpasforexpats.com/post/us-thailand-tax-treaty

 

 

 

 

There's one big difference, lots of income in the UK is taxed at "source", unless requested and approved otherwise, savings interest, dividends, rental income etc. Also, UK CG must be filed within 60 days of the gain arising, not at year end with the tax return.

[Mike Lister]

Thailand’s cabinet on Tuesday approved a tax exemption for crypto earnings to encourage fundraising via investment tokens, multiple local news outlets reported.

Under the exemption, holders of investment tokens that have had the 15% capital gains tax withheld don’t need to include the profits when calculating their income tax, essentially ending a scenario of double taxation, according to one report.

 

https://www.coindesk.com/policy/2024/03/13/thailand-greenlights-income-tax-exemption-for-investment-token-earnings-report/

[JimGant]

26 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

There's one big difference, lots of income in the UK is taxed at "source", unless requested and approved otherwise, savings interest, dividends, rental income etc. Also, UK CG must be filed within 60 days of the gain arising, not at year end with the tax return.

 

Good point. Unlike the US-Thai treaty, the UK-Thai treaty is short on declaring what income is exclusive to Thailand (e.g., private pensions). Thus, a lot more wiggle room to declare home country taxation rules the day.

[UKresonant]

8 hours ago, JimGant said:

 

First and foremost, as least regarding US taxes, the only "at source" taxation I know of is for payments to non resident aliens. This is a final tax, with a fixed rate, which would make no sense for a US taxpayer, subject to a graduated tax scale. Thus, forget the "at source" stuff -- the US taxpayer figures out his taxable income via 1099 reports or from a spreadsheet, where sales proceeds minus basis, arrives at a taxable gain. At any rate, he files a tax return with this information.

 

Let's use my IRA annual payment (called a Required Minimum Distribution - RMD) as one example source of income. Per the DTA, if I remit this income to Thailand, Thailand has exclusive taxation rights on this income, and the US secondary rights, per the saving clause in the DTA. This will only show up on a Thai tax return -- if I so declare, as they won't know what part of my cash flow into Thailand from my bank account is assessable income. And Thai RD has no way of knowing whether or not I paid US taxes on this income, nor, probably what the DTA says about this income, i.e., whether or not it gets a US tax credit against it -- or whether the US gets a Thai tax credit against it. Again, it is my self-assessment in reporting this. And, per the DTA, with Thailand having exclusive taxation rights, I declare the whole amount as assessable income, i.e., not offset by a US tax credit. This is probably all, or most, transparent to Thai RD, who maybe has no interest in or knowledge of any related DTA. Or, maybe I just take Sherring's advice, and don't even declare this on a Thai tax return, since according to Sherring, as it's taxed by the home country, double taxation is avoided by just not paying Thai taxes on it (a spreadsheet would show US tax credits completely wipe out any Thai taxation).

 

But, if I follow the DTA treaty rules, I pay Thailand full fare taxes on this RMD, and take the Thai taxes as a credit against my US taxes. Again, this is all done with information I collect. Thailand doesn't send any information to the IRS. And they're completely oblivious to the fact that their taxes are being used as a tax credit on a US tax return. Why would they care -- it doesn't affect the taxes they collect.. Oh, I could even figure out what my Thai taxes would be on this RMD, long before I even file a Thai tax return, via a little spreadsheet work. Nothing official need be provided the US on this Thai tax credit. I just plug the numbers into Form 1116 -- and realize a one for one offset in my US tax bill, i.e., no extra taxes paid anyone in this scenario. But, the DTA rules are at least followed in this scenario.

 

Anyway, Sherring doesn't agree. But here's a better take on tax credits:

https://www.cpasforexpats.com/post/us-thailand-tax-treaty

 

 

 

 

Thai RD would have to be involved if I had to attempt to try and claim any tax refund from UK HMRC, for the amount of Thai Tax. They would have to stamp/sign a DT-individual form at least 

 

Still hope for more clarity on what documentation Thai RD shall expect, whether practical approach or otherwise...

 

 

The linked article on TieBreaker is interesting on habitual abode, is that purely the tax year or would it be like a few Years..  

Edited March 15 by UKresonant

[anrcaccount]

9 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

9 hours ago, Kenny202 said:

 

A TIN (Tax Identification Number) must be applied for from the Thai Revenue before you can file a tax return. The poster might be hinting that if you never get a TIN, you can transfer the money and they wont know who you are so you wont have to pay tax or file a return. (like your Bank and Immigration don't know!!!))

Mike, here you appear to show some assumption bias that needs to be challenged. 

 

Do you have a source for insinuating  "like your bank and Immigration don't know"? ( Sarcasm implying that of course, they're aware) 

 

There's currently no link between Immigration and the Thai RD for the majority of foreign visas. So, "immigration don't know" would be a logical statement. 

 

Regarding Thai Banks. Of course, they are aware of transactions, but again, there's very little/ arguably no linkage between transactions and any individuals Thai taxation, including info sharing with the Thai RD.

 

So, "bank don't know" would also be a logical statement. 

 

I get you're taking the position that "of course they could find out if they tried hard enough", and that's also logical, but it's also not reflective of the current reality. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Mike Lister]

4 minutes ago, anrcaccount said:

Mike, here you appear to show some assumption bias that needs to be challenged. 

 

Do you have a source for insinuating  "like your bank and Immigration don't know"? ( Sarcasm implying that of course, they're aware) 

 

There's currently no link between Immigration and the Thai RD for the majority of foreign visas. So, "immigration don't know" would be a logical statement. 

 

Regarding Thai Banks. Of course, they are aware of transactions, but again, there's very little/ arguably no linkage between transactions and any individuals Thai taxation, including info sharing with the Thai RD.

 

So, "bank don't know" would also be a logical statement. 

 

I get you're taking the position that "of course they could find out if they tried hard enough", and that's also logical, but it's also not reflective of the current reality. 

 

 

Well, there is a very firm link between the Revenue and Immigration when it comes to certain visa types because a tax clearance certificate is required for them. There is of course a law on the books requireming all foreigners to obtain one, before leaving the country albeit the rule is not enforced across the board.

 

https://magnacarta.co.th/home/faq-section-2/thailand-tax-clearance-certificate/#:~:text=Thailand Tax

Clearance Certificate is,compliant and of good standing.

 

There is also a very firm link between the Thai banks and Immigration because the banks supply the financial information, needed for the visa applicant to obtain or extend their visa. That financial information comprises details of overseas funds transfers into Thailand.

 

And of course, there is a very very strong link between the Thai banks and the Central Bank, because the banks are required to report all foreign currency exchanges to the BOT.

 

By all means think of it as assumption bias, I prefer to think of it as fact.

 

[Celsius]

9 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Well, there is a very firm link between the Revenue and Immigration when it comes to certain visa types because a tax clearance certificate is required for them. There is of course a law on the books requireming all foreigners to obtain one, before leaving the country albeit the rule is not enforced across the board.

 

https://magnacarta.co.th/home/faq-section-2/thailand-tax-clearance-certificate/#:~:text=Thailand Tax

Clearance Certificate is,compliant and of good standing.

 

There is also a very firm link between the Thai banks and Immigration because the banks supply the financial information, needed for the visa applicant to obtain or extend their visa. That financial information comprises details of overseas funds transfers into Thailand.

 

And of course, there is a very very strong link between the Thai banks and the Central Bank, because the banks are required to report all foreign currency exchanges to the BOT.

 

By all means think of it as assumption bias, I prefer to think of it as fact.

 

 

 

rofl

 

They could start charging 15% tax to all the Chinese, Taiwanese and Hong Kong landlords who own multiple properties in Thailand. That would be the EASIEST thing to do since the government could just go to land department and see who the owners are.

 

OR even easier just track the monthly rent payments  foreign landlords have set up with Bangkok Bank where both Thai and Foreign tenants pay them.

 

No they can't even do something as simple as that.

 

By your interpretation at least all foreign landlords should have been paying tax on their rental income when in fact none of them are.

 

 

Edited March 15 by Celsius

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, Celsius said:

 

 

rofl

 

They could start charging 15% tax to all the Chinese, Taiwanese and Hong Kong landlords who own multiple properties in Thailand. That would be the EASIEST thing to do since the government could just go to land department and see who the owners are.

 

OR even easier just track the monthly rent payments  foreign landlords have set up with Bangkok Bank where both Thai and Foreign tenants pay them.

 

No they can't even do something as simple as that.

 

By your interpretation at least all foreign landlords should have been paying tax on their rental income when in fact none of them are.

 

 

"when in fact none of them are". 

 

You can't possibly know that, any cases you are aware of are purely anecdotal.

 

I know of one anecdotal example, my next door neighbour. The farang with Thai wife own the property but have gone back to the UK to live and now rent it out, the adult children manage the rental. The house was leased to a Chinese woman who rented it out to a third party who is also Chinese. The tenant in turn rents part of the property to a fourth party, also Chinese. The rent flows through several people and ends up in the adult childs hands, in cash. Simple? I don't think so.

 

 

[Celsius]

Just now, Mike Lister said:

"when in fact none of them are". 

 

You can't possibly know that, any cases you are aware of are purely anecdotal.

 

I

 

 

It is anecdotal that most landlords in Thailand don't pay tax?

[Mike Lister]

3 minutes ago, Celsius said:

 

 

It is anecdotal that most landlords in Thailand don't pay tax?

Well, I know it's not that none of them do because we have friends who own multiple units and they pay tax, albeit they own the units through a company.

 

I think also that often people here are too easily tempted to think that "they" are not capable when really, it's more about they have chosen not to, for whatever reason, case in point, enforcing taxation of foreigners. For a long time they chose not to, then one day, they do.

[ukrules]

9 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

Thailand’s cabinet on Tuesday approved a tax exemption for crypto earnings to encourage fundraising via investment tokens, multiple local news outlets reported.

Under the exemption, holders of investment tokens that have had the 15% capital gains tax withheld don’t need to include the profits when calculating their income tax, essentially ending a scenario of double taxation, according to one report.

 

https://www.coindesk.com/policy/2024/03/13/thailand-greenlights-income-tax-exemption-for-investment-token-earnings-report/

 

This is not at all as clear cut as it first sounds.

They're talking about a credit from a withholding tax that has been cancelled / doesn't exist. It's one of those things that was introduced but not implemented anywhere back in 2022 and then withdrawn.

Unless this is the same thing being added back in again - it kind of sounds like it.

 

They also mention the SEC and 'investment tokens' in the original Thai text which I ran through google translate - not specifically 'crypto'. I wonder if they're talking about a new type of investment shares here which have yet to be launched.

 

Coindesk which is notoriously unreliable and will report any old rubbish have been reporting all sorts of stuff for years now - they even link to one of the out of date stories about withholding tax from 2022 which cites the BKPost in the article and speak about the tax benefits including a VAT exemption until December 2023 which was 3 months ago in an article published 2 days ago. They're not to be taken seriously.

 

Edited March 15 by ukrules

[UKresonant]

2 hours ago, anrcaccount said:

Regarding Thai Banks. Of course, they are aware of transactions, but again, there's very little/ arguably no linkage between transactions and any individuals Thai taxation, including info sharing with the Thai RD.

 

So, "bank don't know" would also be a logical statement. 

 

I get you're taking the position that "of course they could find out if they tried hard enough", and that's also logical, but it's also not reflective of the current reality. 

Forrest Lee's chat with the Tax guy, on the YouTube link I posted earlier, seems to suggest that RD have the tools now. So the RD just have to take an interest, perhaps inbound transaction over whatever the current Threshold trigger is now (I think it was as low as 38k about 5 years ago), and you could be a random audit subject.

Edited March 15 by UKresonant

[OJAS]

8 hours ago, UKresonant said:

Thai RD would have to be involved if I had to attempt to try and claim any tax refund from UK HMRC, for the amount of Thai Tax. They would have to stamp/sign a DT-individual form at least 

 

This, I think, is the DT-Individual form you refer to:

 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/637e192f8fa8f56eabf75e5b/Double_Taxation_Treaty_Relief_Form_DT-Individual.pdf

 

Can't see the RD attaching much urgency to providing the necessary certification, and they could well require a certified translation of the relevant section into Thai at our expense in any event. And once the RD have provided the necessary certification HMRC might well require a certified translation of this back into English!

 

Another point worth making, I think, is that UK pensioners seeking tax refunds from HMRC will almost certainly need to file tax returns with them (as well as with the RD) - for possibly the first time ever if all their post-retirement income has hitherto been derived solely from pensions. And since they are deemed to be UK non-residents for taxation purposes they will need to enlist the services of commercial software providers (at further personal expense) if filing tax returns to HMRC online.

 

IMHO this has all the hallmarks of a bureaucratic nightmare for British retirees who are in receipt of company pensions in particular!

 

Edited March 15 by OJAS

[Mike Lister]

5 minutes ago, OJAS said:

 

This, I think, is the DT-Individual form you refer to:

 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/637e192f8fa8f56eabf75e5b/Double_Taxation_Treaty_Relief_Form_DT-Individual.pdf

 

Can't see the RD attaching much urgency to providing the necessary certification, and they could well require a certified translation of the relevant section into Thai at our expense in any event. And once the RD have provided the necessary certification HMRC might well require a certified translation of this back into English!

 

Another point worth making, I think, is that UK pensioners seeking tax refunds from HMRC will almost certainly need to file tax returns with them (as well as with the RD) - for possibly the first time ever if all their post-retirement income has hitherto been derived solely from pensions. And since they are deemed to be UK non-residents for taxation purposes they will need to enlist the services of commercial software providers (at further personal expense) if filing tax returns to HMRC online.

 

IMHO this has all the hallmarks of a bureaucratic nightmare for British retirees who are in receipt of company pensions in particular!

 

I use a tax accountant in the UK who charges me 160 Pounds to prepare and file my UK returns, no VAT because I'm not UK resident, if anyone needs her contact details, let me know.

[findlay13]

234 pages! Well done Boys and Girls

[UKresonant]

40 minutes ago, OJAS said:

 

This, I think, is the DT-Individual form you refer to:

 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/637e192f8fa8f56eabf75e5b/Double_Taxation_Treaty_Relief_Form_DT-Individual.pdf

 

Can't see the RD attaching much urgency to providing the necessary certification, and they could well require a certified translation of the relevant section into Thai at our expense in any event. And once the RD have provided the necessary certification HMRC might well require a certified translation of this back into English!

 

Another point worth making, I think, is that UK pensioners seeking tax refunds from HMRC will almost certainly need to file tax returns with them (as well as with the RD) - for possibly the first time ever if all their post-retirement income has hitherto been derived solely from pensions. And since they are deemed to be UK non-residents for taxation purposes they will need to enlist the services of commercial software providers (at further personal expense) if filing tax returns to HMRC online.

 

IMHO this has all the hallmarks of a bureaucratic nightmare for British retirees who are in receipt of company pensions in particular!

 

I've never filed a tax return with HMRC as I've always had an accounts dept. to sort all that.

Asked if they wanted one when I done what was supposed to be a temporary early retirement about 6 years ago (no extra tax due), they said no, they can see everything on their screen!

 

If it is not possible to obtain the required paper to satisfy RD, without undue complexity and or cost, it's a big oops from my point of view.

 

(They have discontinued the non-O Multi from London again, though the e-Visa seems to work very efficiently, it's not the same as being able to plan a year, especially to optimize flight cost, which is much more now anyway. Rumours of much higher Visa prices, etc etc. If it were not for Family consideration, this whole subject would be just watched remotely with my popcorn!)

 

But I do want to be prepared as far as possible just in case!

 

HMRC might just say DTA article 23 3) applies, and the UK tax  should tax credit against Thai Tax.

If Thai RD want the tax, we would have to have a float fund of an entire year's tax whilst  in a temporary double tax situation. I've only had one previous year that I was Thai tax Resident, so currently have all clean savings / income.

 

So that gives me  each year 60kTHB exempt pension (net), 60kTHB personal allowance, and 150k Zero and 150k at 5% say (small change tax), plus non-resident & pre2024 savings perhaps  to avoid hassle.

To cover max 9 months there.  

 

 

[anrcaccount]

13 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

Well, there is a very firm link between the Revenue and Immigration when it comes to certain visa types because a tax clearance certificate is required for them. There is of course a law on the books requireming all foreigners to obtain one, before leaving the country albeit the rule is not enforced across the board.

 

https://magnacarta.co.th/home/faq-section-2/thailand-tax-clearance-certificate/#:~:text=Thailand Tax

Clearance Certificate is,compliant and of good standing.

 

A firm link? A legacy law that hasn't been operationalized or enforced in many many years? Do you know of anyone who has completed one of these in the last 10-15 years, and in what circumstance it was required?

 

As you state in your simple guide, there is no current link between Thai RD taxation and visa filings( for the vast majority of foreign visa holders).

 

That there may be a link in the future, is an assumption.

 

13 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

 

There is also a very firm link between the Thai banks and Immigration because the banks supply the financial information, needed for the visa applicant to obtain or extend their visa. That financial information comprises details of overseas funds transfers into Thailand.

 

And of course, there is a very very strong link between the Thai banks and the Central Bank, because the banks are required to report all foreign currency exchanges to the BOT.

 

By all means think of it as assumption bias, I prefer to think of it as fact.

 

 

This is not the point made. Your statements above are unrelated to taxation and concern financial proof required for certain visas. 

 

The point was, there's no current general link between Thai RD taxation and banks. 

 

That there may be a link in the future, is an assumption.

 

 

[Mike Lister]

3 hours ago, anrcaccount said:

 

A firm link? A legacy law that hasn't been operationalized or enforced in many many years? Do you know of anyone who has completed one of these in the last 10-15 years, and in what circumstance it was required?

 

As you state in your simple guide, there is no current link between Thai RD taxation and visa filings( for the vast majority of foreign visa holders).

 

That there may be a link in the future, is an assumption.

 

 

This is not the point made. Your statements above are unrelated to taxation and concern financial proof required for certain visas. 

 

The point was, there's no current general link between Thai RD taxation and banks. 

 

That there may be a link in the future, is an assumption.

 

 

The link in the OP confirms that Tax Clearance Certificates are required of certain professions currently so yes, they have been operationalised.

 

I don't find it particularly useful or informative to debate whether a future event such as use of  Tax Clearance Certificates is possible/probable/likely/certain. My personal view is that their use will be expanded in the future and broad adoption of them is fairly certain. That's my view, if yours is different, that's fine also, we can agree to disagree.

[topt]

16 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

I use a tax accountant in the UK who charges me 160 Pounds to prepare and file my UK returns, no VAT because I'm not UK resident, if anyone needs her contact details, let me know.

You can buy/rent commercial software for less than £50, several different providers and or file by paper which is the cost of a stamp........(all be it posting a UK tax return from here has got much more expensive in the last couple of years). 

For most people why would you need an accountant?

[topt]

7 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

The link in the OP confirms that Tax Clearance Certificates are required of certain professions currently so yes, they have been operationalised.

Sorry Mike but for the average retired person, and most people who are learning about this stuff for the first time,  do you really see that happening in the near future? 

On 3/15/2024 at 9:06 PM, Mike Lister said:

I think also that often people here are too easily tempted to think that "they" are not capable when really, it's more about they have chosen not to, for whatever reason, case in point, enforcing taxation of foreigners. For a long time they chose not to, then one day, they do.

As you keep pointing out the only change in the law has been one directive and you seem to be suggesting that is enough for the Thai RD to suddenly switch their focus to chasing all the 65k per month direct remitted retirees.........

I agree with your statement but I am very unsure that the time is now  - agree to disagree 

 

On 3/15/2024 at 11:59 AM, Mike Lister said:

There's one big difference, lots of income in the UK is taxed at "source", unless requested and approved otherwise, savings interest, dividends, rental income etc. Also, UK CG must be filed within 60 days of the gain arising, not at year end with the tax return.

Unless I have misunderstood you "savings interest" has not been taxed at source for a couple of years (actually checking seems to be around 2016....). You need to declare it (supposed to) on a tax return if over the threshold for your tax level which with current interest rates many people will breach.

 

[Banana7]

On 9/28/2023 at 3:42 PM, John Drake said:

So all those of us from the US need to do is submit our IRS filings (which includes our social security numbers, financial status, home address, phone numbers, and bank accounts) to the Thai tax department and where it goes and how it's used, who knows??? No chance of it being passed along to people working illegally in the US for identity theft. Nope, not at all.

In my opinion, all who provide that info to Thai authorities will be a great risk of identity theft or worse. There are lots of stories in the media, about Thai government database info being shared with third parties, and available for purchase on the dark web. Of course, not all data sharing is made public and reported in news media. Even info provided to Thai embassy and immigration, has been provided to third parties, I have personal experience in this matter.

[Celsius]

3 hours ago, topt said:

You can buy/rent commercial software for less than £50, several different providers and or file by paper which is the cost of a stamp

 

I bet you can not if you are a non resident for tax purposes

[Mike Lister]

3 hours ago, topt said:

Sorry Mike but for the average retired person, and most people who are learning about this stuff for the first time,  do you really see that happening in the near future? 

As you keep pointing out the only change in the law has been one directive and you seem to be suggesting that is enough for the Thai RD to suddenly switch their focus to chasing all the 65k per month direct remitted retirees.........

I agree with your statement but I am very unsure that the time is now  - agree to disagree 

 

Unless I have misunderstood you "savings interest" has not been taxed at source for a couple of years (actually checking seems to be around 2016....). You need to declare it (supposed to) on a tax return if over the threshold for your tax level which with current interest rates many people will breach.

 

"do you really see that happening in the near future?" 

 

This is a crystal ball question, isn't it. Probably not in the near future, simply because it is labour intensive but it is a near perfect solution for Thailand, in many respects. I used to have to get one of these things when I lived in the US in the 1970's, if I wanted to travel oversea I had to take a copy of my tax return to the IRS office and they would inspect it and give me the certificate, outbound Immigration at the airport checked it had been issued. It was up to the IRS officer to determine if the certificate should be issued and whether there was anything suspect about mye having not filed. If I was Thailand, I would implement them in a heartbeat!

 

"chasing all the 65k per month direct remitted retirees".

 

Once again, if I was the Revenue, this group would be my number one target, because they are so easy, inspect everyone on the 65k method and I'd be almost certain to net around 50% of them for some amount of tax. Do they think that way? Dunno!

 

"Savings interest UK"

 

Yes you're right, I think I'm incorrect on this, it's not taxed at source, merely reported. Sorry!

 

 

[Mike Lister]

4 hours ago, topt said:

You can buy/rent commercial software for less than £50, several different providers and or file by paper which is the cost of a stamp........(all be it posting a UK tax return from here has got much more expensive in the last couple of years). 

For most people why would you need an accountant?

I've always used an accountant for  my UK taxes, because I used have my own business and would contract out any services that were not core to it. What  I do now is just a continuation of that. Having an accountant who is present in the UK, means they are up to date on everything and I don't need to waste my time trying to do the same. I also like the idea that HMRC has somebody locally who is an intermediary, in case they have any questions. Occasionally, she gives me some info/advice that's quite useful, mostly it's a repetitive mechanical process that gives me piece of mind. 

[quake]

1 hour ago, Celsius said:

 

I bet you can not if you are a non resident for tax purposes

 

The one I use Andica is about 16 GBP +vat.

I use it for uk rental and pension income.

full list of approved providers, below.

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/self-assessment-commercial-software-suppliers/self-assessment-online-commercial-software-suppliers#andica-limited

 

 

Edited March 16 by quake

[Mike Lister]

2 hours ago, quake said:

 

The one I use Andica is about 16 GBP +vat.

I use it for uk rental and pension income.

full list of approved providers, below.

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/self-assessment-commercial-software-suppliers/self-assessment-online-commercial-software-suppliers#andica-limited

 

 

Unless I'm mistaken, these are for UK resident filing purposes, correct?

[quake]

1 hour ago, Mike Lister said:

Unless I'm mistaken, these are for UK resident filing purposes, correct?

 

I use the standard package,  it has the supplementary pages for non residents and non resident landlords, like the SA 105 and SA 109  

Been using Andica for the last 8 years.

 

 

Edited March 16 by quake

[Mike Lister]

7 hours ago, topt said:

Sorry Mike but for the average retired person, and most people who are learning about this stuff for the first time,  do you really see that happening in the near future? 

As you keep pointing out the only change in the law has been one directive and you seem to be suggesting that is enough for the Thai RD to suddenly switch their focus to chasing all the 65k per month direct remitted retirees.........

I agree with your statement but I am very unsure that the time is now  - agree to disagree 

 

Unless I have misunderstood you "savings interest" has not been taxed at source for a couple of years (actually checking seems to be around 2016....). You need to declare it (supposed to) on a tax return if over the threshold for your tax level which with current interest rates many people will breach.

 

Your questions and my answers made me think about what I might do if I was The Revenue, so for humour value, try this:

 

I'd recognise that low compliance, avoidance and evasion, along with cash in hand, are key features of the workforce, there is no social responsibility ethos that compels people to pay tax. Any steps to improve tax collection have therefore got to be easily enforceable and an "escape proof trap", a bottle neck that everyone has to pass through and that can be reliably monitored and captured. All that points towards using the banks and electronic data capture to snare evaders/avoiders, it also points towards using other government agencies that are associated or linked. Revenue is able to tax exports/imports because they are company based and rely on annual returns that are audited, they also rely on Customs Department. Large companies are easily taxable because they have to prepare audited books and returns. Real estate is easily taxable because it relies on the Land Office. 

 

I'm pretty sure that if I was them, I would want to harness the other government departments to help me collect tax. IF foreigners were the target, which I don't believe they are, Immigration would be a key tool in all of that. Visa applications, extensions and departure/arrival are key bottle necks. Having said all that, I doubt that either department has the required levels of operational efficiency to make that sort of system work effectively, not for several years.