Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part I

[Enzian]

1. For over 5 years I've been receiving treatment from a government clinic in Bangkok for a rare condition, the treatment for which is the same as for a much more common condition. The crucial drug has been subsidized by the government. I'm almost always the only farang in there, tho I go in with my Thai SO. This past week we were informed that the cost of the treatment would on short notice now  go up by several orders of magnitude, except for government employees of any sort. The increase is more than many Thais make in a month. Will many patients simply forgo treatment and let the debilitating condition run its course? Or did they lie to me that it applies to ordinary Thais as well as me? They did say it was specifically a decision of the "new government". Would a different government (MFP?) have done the same? Is there any chance of a reversal?

My point is that this government is capable of many things which might surprise us. I do appreciate the years they helped me, but my Kaiser in California will give me the treatment every 9 weeks no questions asked for a $10 co-pay, and they are a generation ahead in procedure. I can fly to CA (one way at least) to see friends and family for the cost of the difference.

2. I just spent 2 nights in Bumrungrad with bacterial pneumonia that left me weak as a kitten. Because it was a bona fide emergency Kaiser paid ((97K!).; for ongoing treatment they will not. Well over 80, I self insure. Pollution season in Thailand is almost on us. I like to walk outdoors. Hot season is soon. For 10 months of the year the air and climate in the  Norcal Bay Area is among the best in the world. 

3. Now the Thai RD is leaving things deliberately vague imo, so there will always be a gotcha. 

You can see where I'm going with this. Thanks for reading.

Edited December 2, 2023 by Enzian
more

[The Cyclist]

5 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Wait until the Thai RD releases all its clarifications and exemptions - then we will all know where we stand and what money being remitted into Thailand will be liable for income taxes.

 

 

4 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

There has been no media statement or clarification from PM/or a Minister or Thai RD stating that they do not want to tax Expats money.

 

I think the paragraph from the original September statement is quite clear and concise.

 

Persons from a Country with a DTA with Thailand will be exempt.

 

* I will make an assumption, an assume that this will cover income that has already been taxed, and will not cover income that has not been taxed.

 

You make a loud noise about ignoring people that don't buy into your negativity, yet go out your way to ignore a certain paragraph from the original announcement.

 

Rather bizarre.

[couchpotato]

There are now 148 pages in this particular thread alone, and people still are asking the same questions with no real answers, because nobody really knows yet what the Government intends to finally do, so it's really a waste of time discussing scenarios that may or may not evenuate. IMHO.

[tomkenet]

2 hours ago, couchpotato said:

There are now 148 pages in this particular thread alone, and people still are asking the same questions with no real answers, because nobody really knows yet what the Government intends to finally do, so it's really a waste of time discussing scenarios that may or may not evenuate. IMHO.

I have to disagree, I have received a lot of useful information from this thread .

We might not know what the government will finally do, the government probably don't know itself, but we know pretty well what will happen in the meantime.

 

[UKresonant]

13 hours ago, tomkenet said:

Not sure if this document has been posted here before.

 

https://www.mazars.co.th/mazarspage/download/1175616/59807824/file/Technical-update-November-2023.pdf

 

Quite interesting 

 

What if Mr A has a savings account from before 2024 holding  16000 thb.

He remits this money, instead of capital gain money realised from selling 80 shares in 2025,  to Thailand in 2026. Still taxable for the year 2026?

Mr A has a savings account from before 2024 holding  16000 thb (deposited  before 1st Jan 2024) . He remits this money  = IMO would expect not taxable (if isolated from any interest arising in the savings account). any year. 

 

capital gain money realised from selling 80 shares in 2025,  to Thailand in 2026. Still taxable for the year 2026?   IMO would expect = Yes taxed as income.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[UKresonant]

13 hours ago, jayboy said:

I have a feeling I'm missing something so perhaps someone  could help me out. Consider the following scenario which I will keep as simple as possible -

 

I have a company pension and a UK state pension paid monthly into a Jersey bank account.Up to now I have transferred funds from this source to a Thailand bank account to meet my living expenses.

 

I understand that from 2024 I will be taxed in Thailand on amounts remitted from this source.For reasons I need not go into the company pension is paid - with HMRC approval - to me free of UK tax (so DTA is irrelevant.)

 

But what is stopping me simply accumulating pension in my Jersey account and relying instead on transferring investment funds all accumulated prior to 31.12.23? Does this take me out of the Thai income tax equation?

 

I think I would still have to submit a Thai tax return.All speculation of course but a few may also be in the same boat.

 

Depends what your Investment funds consist of, if they are currency deposits, in an isolated account, with any interest generated mandated externally to a separate account that may, it would seem, to exclude it being assessable when remitted to Thailand, as you can demonstrate it is purely pre-2024 of the original principle. (easier said than done in practice perhaps, e.g. if the account matures and is transferred to an other account with interest shown, big oops  )

If it is equities or commodities likely it would have a price movement gain or generate a dividend / interest, which may tarnish its validity for possible exclusion? 

 

(All speculation indeed)

[UKresonant]

13 hours ago, tomkenet said:

What if Mr A has a savings account from before 2024 holding  16000 thb. The interest is 1000 thb a year, so in 2026 the account holds 18.000 thb.

He remits this 16.000 thb from the savings account  to Thailand in 2026. (Not from the account that holds the 16.000 capital gains from 2025) What is taxable income for the year 2026?

 

0 thb

2.000thb or

16.000 thb

 

At least 2/18 x 16000 =1778thb  considered to be taxable I would imagine ? as you can't define the pre-2024 original principle, and this could also be complicated by compound interest? Difficult to pin it down to the exact satang on the return 

[kiwikeith]

On 9/18/2023 at 3:22 PM, jvs said:

More info needed for sure but if it means retirees have to pay tax here

there will be not enough airplanes going back to Europe and other countries.

It will be a total disaster for many people including me.

Lets just wait for the small print before getting all worried and hope for the best.

On the other hand,if you have to pay tax here it should also give you some rights?

Probably not.

One less visit to the local bar and one less bar fine should compensate for the tax penalty, if introduced to pensions. 

[UKresonant]

Within the RDs new posture, will this possibly become a problem again? I thought it had gone a couple of decades ago, but there is still a page kicking about apparently updated Nov 2020...if the dates page specific.

 

https://www.rd.go.th/english/23518.html

 

or is it one of these things that stopped being a problem early 2000's, or is it still lurking for possible symptoms to re-appear later?

 

[Ben Zioner]

17 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

 

It will all be taxable from 1 January 2024 onwards.  From that date forward it is irrelevant when the 'earnings' were made. Any money remitted into Thailand that is 'taxable earnings/income' from 1 Jan 2024 onwards is taxable, irrespective of what year that earnings/income was made/received. 

Not so.

 

 

[lapamita]

just a silly question , it maybe apply to other worldtraveler

Living in thailand under visa excempt for 4 month a year aprox , on a temporary residence in other country aprox 7 month ( its called temporary with no taxt obligation but asking at application for the first residence , gave them years ago an pro forma adress bcs no have first residence ) 1month or more in diffrent countrys.

 

at my Bank ACs i was gave them all thaiadress since 20 years ,where the last years some problems slowly comming up

 

from legal i have to pay tax anywhere or not ( income only from stocks dividends and intrest as well little rent) no working since xxx

[K2938]

55 minutes ago, lapamita said:

just a silly question , it maybe apply to other worldtraveler

Living in thailand under visa excempt for 4 month a year aprox , on a temporary residence in other country aprox 7 month ( its called temporary with no taxt obligation but asking at application for the first residence , gave them years ago an pro forma adress bcs no have first residence ) 1month or more in diffrent countrys.

 

at my Bank ACs i was gave them all thaiadress since 20 years ,where the last years some problems slowly comming up

 

from legal i have to pay tax anywhere or not ( income only from stocks dividends and intrest as well little rent) no working since xxx

1) You do not have to pay taxes in Thailand based on this scenario if all your income is non-Thai.  How the situation is in other countries depends on the tax laws of these other countries.

2) Giving your Thai address to your foreign banks also does not change that you are not taxable in Thailand.  With this now for the first time actually being reported to Thailand it might however be that Thailand will at some point of time report back to them that you do not really live in Thailand which might cause you some trouble with your banks.

[tomkenet]

1 hour ago, lapamita said:

just a silly question , it maybe apply to other worldtraveler

Living in thailand under visa excempt for 4 month a year aprox , on a temporary residence in other country aprox 7 month ( its called temporary with no taxt obligation but asking at application for the first residence , gave them years ago an pro forma adress bcs no have first residence ) 1month or more in diffrent countrys.

 

at my Bank ACs i was gave them all thaiadress since 20 years ,where the last years some problems slowly comming up

 

from legal i have to pay tax anywhere or not ( income only from stocks dividends and intrest as well little rent) no working since xxx

Google "tax resident of nowhere"

[beammeup]

Question: If you have foreign income in 2024 and are tax resident but do not remit the money until 2025 at which time you are not tax resident, Is it taxable?

[Mike Lister]

11 minutes ago, beammeup said:

Question: If you have foreign income in 2024 and are tax resident but do not remit the money until 2025 at which time you are not tax resident, Is it taxable?

No, the issue is your tax residency at the time the funds were remitted, not when the income was earned.

[The Cyclist]

2 minutes ago, beammeup said:

Question: If you have foreign income in 2024 and are tax resident but do not remit the money until 2025 at which time you are not tax resident, Is it taxable?

 

The only answer to that at this moment in time, is  try it and find out.

 

Nothing will jump out at anyone if you have been living here permanently for an extended period of time , 3, 5, 10 years and suddenly you change circumstances to ensure that you fall below the 180 days tax residency but continue remitting money.

 

The whole premise of the OECD / CRS which Thailand is implementing from the 01 Jan 2024 is to close loopholes that have allowed people to avoid paying tax, either in their home Country or in Thailand.

 

People who have been using these loopholes to avoid paying tax, now have a choice, pay tax in your home Country or pay tax in Thailand, or spend a fortune Country bouncing.

[Mike Teavee]

15 minutes ago, beammeup said:

Question: If you have foreign income in 2024 and are tax resident but do not remit the money until 2025 at which time you are not tax resident, Is it taxable?

No, the money would be remitted in a year that you were not Tax Resident so you would not need to complete a Return or pay Tax on it. 

 

If however, you remitted the money in 2026 when you were Tax Resident, then (DTAs aside) you would be liable to Tax on it.  

 

However, if you earned income in 2025 whilst you were not Tax Resident & remitted this to Thailand in 2026 when you were Tax Resident, you wouldn't need to pay Tax on it in.

 

You can see how it's going to be essential to keep track of when money was earned.

 

Edited December 3, 2023 by Mike Teavee

[RupertIII]

17 minutes ago, beammeup said:

Question: If you have foreign income in 2024 and are tax resident but do not remit the money until 2025 at which time you are not tax resident, Is it taxable?

According to the chart below you would appear to fit into Scenario No. 1, although how they would be able to collect tax if you are not here is a different matter.

 

2 hours ago, Ben Zioner said:

 

[Mike Teavee]

4 minutes ago, RupertIII said:

According to the chart below you would appear to fit into Scenario No. 1, although how they would be able to collect tax if you are not here is a different matter.

The table needs an additional column "Tax Resident in the year the income was remitted" - If "Yes" then I agree it would be Scenario 1 & Tax would be payable, if "No" then no Tax would be due. 

 

[Mike Teavee]

3 hours ago, Ben Zioner said:

Not so.

Per Post above, you need additional Column(s) to say whether the individual was Tax Resident in the year the remittance was brought over, only a "Yes" answer would lead to Tax being due in Scenario 1. 

Edited December 3, 2023 by Mike Teavee

[Yumthai]

1 hour ago, K2938 said:

Giving your Thai address to your foreign banks also does not change that you are not taxable in Thailand.  With this now for the first time actually being reported to Thailand it might however be that Thailand will at some point of time report back to them that you do not really live in Thailand which might cause you some trouble with your banks.

 

Thailand can't report he doesn't live in Thailand, they could just say (unlikely) that he is not tax resident in Thailand for one particular tax year.

He can effectively live in Thailand up to 179 days a year (with address and plenty of supporting docs) being not resident for tax purposes in Thailand.

[Mike Lister]

5 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

 

Thailand can't report he doesn't live in Thailand, they could just say (unlikely) that he is not tax resident in Thailand for one particular tax year.

He can effectively live in Thailand up to 179 days a year (with address and plenty of supporting docs) being not resident for tax purposes in Thailand.

He doesn't need any supporting documentation or evidence to prove he was or wasn't tax resident in Thailand, he only needs the stamps in his passport. I used that same method for over 10 years to prove my tax residency in several countries.

[TravelerEastWest]

16 hours ago, tomkenet said:

I have to disagree, I have received a lot of useful information from this thread .

We might not know what the government will finally do, the government probably don't know itself, but we know pretty well what will happen in the meantime.

 

 

Wise words.

 

Also, I consider threads like this to be therapy...

 

I have two teenagers and have had morning coffee after school dropoff many times with other parents and over the years I have not solved any problems but always felt much better.

 

In this thread, some people understand business and money but no one knows what will happen for sure - but I like the idea of talking about what-ifs and getting ready...

[Mike Lister]

On the subject of reporting the days of your tax residency, it's where you were at midnight that counts. If you were on a plane at midnight, you were nowhere for tax residency purposes hence it's quite easy to lose many days per year as a result, if you travel frequently. 

[Klonko]

1 hour ago, Mike Lister said:

On the subject of reporting the days of your tax residency, it's where you were at midnight that counts. If you were on a plane at midnight, you were nowhere for tax residency purposes hence it's quite easy to lose many days per year as a result, if you travel frequently. 

Do you have evidence that the midnight rule is also applied in Thailand? As the ≥ 180 days rule is unique to Thailand, I would not be surprised for Thai RD to apply another method to calculate tax residence. There was once a post saying that Thai RD has come to fewer days residence than Thai immigration, but it may have been local Thai RD practice.

 

I wonder if flying over a country at midnight constitutes one day presence in this country.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

21 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

I think the paragraph from the original September statement is quite clear and concise.

Persons from a Country with a DTA with Thailand will be exempt.

* I will make an assumption, an assume that this will cover income that has already been taxed, and will not cover income that has not been taxed.

You make a loud noise about ignoring people that don't buy into your negativity, yet go out your way to ignore a certain paragraph from the original announcement.

Rather bizarre.

 

Absolute rubbish - a person from a DTA is not 'exempt' - it totally depends on what the source of the money is - pensions, investments, savings, salary, property rental, etc etc etc.  If it is a taxable income - as defined by the Thai RD (not you) - you can under the DTA claim exemtions or reductions (through tax credits).

 

If using a DTA as the reason for not payoing income taxes, a person has to PROVE that the money they brought into Thailand is either exempt and/or they have tax credits to apply against the taxes applicable in Thailand. That has to be lodged in a form that is acceptable to the Thai RD, and they have to accept lodgement is valid, and then they have to agree with your claim that you do not have to pay income taxes.  It is not your/my call. 

 

The Thai RD makes it very clear in a published advice, that retired and married Expat's bringing money into Thailand from pensions, and/or earned from previous employment, and/or previous investments, are exempt. That is what I am hoping they will do - and sooner rather than later.

 

Sorry to be negative - but it aint as simple as many people like you think. Under a DTA a person can claim exemptions (payment types) and credits (for taxes already paid).  A DTA does not mean that Thailand cannot apply income taxes to a person of a DTA country who has brought money into Thailand.  How and when and if any exemptions and credits are applied under a DTA, is at the sole dicretion of the taxation authority in that country. If a person disagrees with any decison made, they have the right to appeal and to then go to Court. 

 

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, Klonko said:

Do you have evidence that the midnight rule is also applied in Thailand? As the ≥ 180 days rule is unique to Thailand, I would not be surprised for Thai RD to apply another method to calculate tax residence. There was once a post saying that Thai RD has come to fewer days residence than Thai immigration, but it may have been local Thai RD practice.

 

I wonder if flying over a country at midnight constitutes one day presence in this country.

No I do not, and no, flying over a country doesn't constitute a day spent in that country!!!

 

Some countries ignore the day or arrival and the day of departure, others use midnight as the key reference, I don't know of any country that includes partial days.

 

[TroubleandGrumpy]

10 hours ago, Ben Zioner said:

Not so.

 

On 12/2/2023 at 2:06 PM, TroubleandGrumpy said:

It will all be taxable from 1 January 2024 onwards.  From that date forward it is irrelevant when the 'earnings' were made. Any money remitted into Thailand that is 'taxable earnings/income' from 1 Jan 2024 onwards is taxable, irrespective of what year that earnings/income was made/received. 

 

 

Read my words above again.  Any earnings made from Jan 1 2024 will be taxable whenever it is remitted into Thailand - no more holding on to it for 2-3 years and then brining it into Thailand tax free in the future.  

 

I can see why you misunderstood me - that chart makes it very clear.  Thanks. 

 

[Mike Lister]

3 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

 

On 12/2/2023 at 2:06 PM, TroubleandGrumpy said:

It will all be taxable from 1 January 2024 onwards.  From that date forward it is irrelevant when the 'earnings' were made. Any money remitted into Thailand that is 'taxable earnings/income' from 1 Jan 2024 onwards is taxable, irrespective of what year that earnings/income was made/received. 

 

 

Read my words above again.  Any earnings made from Jan 1 2024 will be taxable whenever it is remitted into Thailand - no more holding on to it for 2-3 years and then brining it into Thailand tax free in the future.  

 

I can see why you misunderstood me - that chart makes it very clear.  Thanks. 

 

.....as long as the person is tax resident in the year the funds were remitted. But conceivably, a person could become not tax resident in Thailand for a year by spending 187 days outside Thailand and remit a wedge of money to their Thai tax account which would be tax free.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

3 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

.....as long as the person is tax resident in the year the funds were remitted. But conceivably, a person could become not tax resident in Thailand for a year by spending 187 days outside Thailand and remit a wedge of money to their Thai tax account which would be tax free.

Good point - and that is not a bad strategy.  That is now on my list for one of the things to maybe do (if they hit me with income taxes).