Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part I

[Mike Lister]

3 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

So it wouldn't be tax evasion then. Thanks for clearing that up.

Cyclist, if you can't figure out whether giving incomplete information on a tax return and not declaring overseas transfers that represent assessable income is tax evasion, you shouldn't be out in the big wide world alone.

[The Cyclist]

10 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Cyclist, if you can't figure out whether giving incomplete information on a tax return and not declaring overseas transfers that represent assessable income is tax evasion, you shouldn't be out in the big wide world alone.

 

If you are paying the appropriate tax on income - It can never be classed as tax evasion.

 

Is that why the Big 4 keep getting skelped with massive fines. They dont know the difference between ' Avoidance ' and ' Evasion '

 

That comes under those pesky basics you keep talking about.

[bugger bognor]

On 1/1/2024 at 2:50 PM, stat said:

There will be no withholding tax deducted in the coming months as a change like this will take years to implement on bank IT Level, not to mention Thai RD would need to confirm that Joe Sixpack is now a thai tax resident at excat the moment he has spend 180 days in Thailand.

 

[JimGant]

2 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

Anyone with assessible income of 60k per year or more, is obliged to file a tax return. That's what the law says, that's what the law has always said, the fact that the RD may have turned a blind eye to it in some cases in the past, is not a reliable excuse for not filing.

 

Under the recently expired rule, income remitted in a later year than the year earned -- was not assessable income, at least for taxation purposes. In my case, my Wise transfers came from a savings account, many years old, containing tons of earnings from previous years. As far as I was concerned, I was compliant with Thai law, in that remitted earnings were from (or at least could shown to be) from earlier times. Thus, no assessable income for tax purposes, no need to file a tax return.

 

For those with direct deposits into Thailand, or who didn't have a checking/savings account several years old, from which to derive their wires into Thailand -- you might not pass the integrity test. However, Thai RD was smart enough to know that they didn't have the resources to ferret out such folks.

[Eudaimonia]

3 hours ago, jayboy said:

In practice the vast majority of expatriate residents not employed in Thailand did not file returns with the RD. The RD turned a blind eye to this or at least did not take action. Quite why the tiny number of expat residents with no Thai income felt the urge to file returns is anyone's guess.

 

Even before September 2023 and the current debacle, the best Thai tax experts advised that even the ubiquitous interpretation of a previous year's offshore income being tax-free has no actual and clear base in law. That may not have been something widely discussed, but HNWIs were advised that they need to be careful with their remittances and filings.

 

Check out this quote: "In my view the new interpretation is consistent with what the law has always said," said Jonathan Stuart-Smith, a tax partner at Mazars of Thailand, a tax consultancy. "It’s just that Thailand’s always had a lucky break, and there’s been this narrow interpretation on the table for a long time."

 

https://www.businesstimes.com.sg/international/asean/thailands-tweak-tax-regulation-foreign-income-sparks-confusion-worries

 

Being a tax resident of Thailand has been, and can still be, quite advantageous thanks to many characteristics of Thai tax laws. People with considerable offshore income might end up with a <1% global tax rate even in 2024 if most earnings are kept offshore and not remitted. However, taking advantage of Thai hospitality by being a tax resident necessitates that all taxes are being filed correctly and everything is above board.

[JimGant]

3 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

I'm very certain that most people who reclaimed the tax with held on bank interest, at least had an opportunity to consider the fact they were only filling out part of a tax return and ignoring the bulk of it. That was how I first was told that I needed to file a return and that was years ago, you can't tell me I am the only person in Thailand who was told.

 

How so? If all my remitted income was from an earlier year, I had no assessable income for Thai tax purposes -- thus no tax filing obligation. Are you saying you somehow had to remit current year income, thus having assessable income for Thai tax purposes? No savings or checking account from a prior year to "filter" your wire transfers through? Weird.

[Mike Lister]

10 minutes ago, JimGant said:

 

How so? If all my remitted income was from an earlier year, I had no assessable income for Thai tax purposes -- thus no tax filing obligation. Are you saying you somehow had to remit current year income, thus having assessable income for Thai tax purposes? No savings or checking account from a prior year to "filter" your wire transfers through? Weird.

It's not about just you Jim, not everyone was sweetness and light and followed the letter of the law! I recall from threads over the years, many many posters saying they had their pension deposited directly into their Thai bank accounts in Thailand!

[jayboy]

19 minutes ago, Eudaimonia said:

 

Even before September 2023 and the current debacle, the best Thai tax experts advised that even the ubiquitous interpretation of a previous year's offshore income being tax-free has no actual and clear base in law. That may not have been something widely discussed, but HNWIs were advised that they need to be careful with their remittances and filings.

 

Check out this quote: "In my view the new interpretation is consistent with what the law has always said," said Jonathan Stuart-Smith, a tax partner at Mazars of Thailand, a tax consultancy. "It’s just that Thailand’s always had a lucky break, and there’s been this narrow interpretation on the table for a long time."

 

https://www.businesstimes.com.sg/international/asean/thailands-tweak-tax-regulation-foreign-income-sparks-confusion-worries

 

Being a tax resident of Thailand has been, and can still be, quite advantageous thanks to many characteristics of Thai tax laws. People with considerable offshore income might end up with a <1% global tax rate even in 2024 if most earnings are kept offshore and not remitted. However, taking advantage of Thai hospitality by being a tax resident necessitates that all taxes are being filed correctly and everything is above board.

 

Is this part of the Business Times article correct?, " What’s clear for now is that the tweaked tax ruling will go into effect on Jan 1, 2024, which means it applies to foreign income earned after Jan 1, 2023."

 

Surely it should be foreign income earned after Jan 1, 2024?

 

The Mazars tax partner sums up the position accurately, Actually though not mentioned tax clearance procedures on departure also remain on the books though thankfully not enforced.

 

I don't understand your last sentence.Being a tax resident has nothing to do with taking advantage of Thai hospitality.Obviously foreigners living in Thailand should respect the law.

[Ben Zioner]

3 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

 

I would hazard a guess that a lot people thought they didn't have to file a Thai tax return because

 

* They did not work or earn money in Thailand.

 

* In Thailand for years but never a tax resident.

 

* Income remitted was already taxed at source.

 

I'll be the first to admit that I knew nothing about the requirements for filing tax returns until this thread.

 

I dont think anyone with there head screwed on the correct way is going to go to the RD and say ' Hey Mr, please advise me how to throw money at you '

 

 

* I never brought in my pensions in the year of earning.

 

* Since October 2022 I have an LTR visa.

Edited January 4 by Ben Zioner

[Eudaimonia]

5 minutes ago, jayboy said:

Is this part of the Business Times article correct?, " What’s clear for now is that the tweaked tax ruling will go into effect on Jan 1, 2024, which means it applies to foreign income earned after Jan 1, 2023."

 

Surely it should be foreign income earned after Jan 1, 2024?

 

Yes, it should be "after Jan 1, 2024."

[Mike Lister]

35 minutes ago, Eudaimonia said:

 

Even before September 2023 and the current debacle, the best Thai tax experts advised that even the ubiquitous interpretation of a previous year's offshore income being tax-free has no actual and clear base in law. That may not have been something widely discussed, but HNWIs were advised that they need to be careful with their remittances and filings.

 

Check out this quote: "In my view the new interpretation is consistent with what the law has always said," said Jonathan Stuart-Smith, a tax partner at Mazars of Thailand, a tax consultancy. "It’s just that Thailand’s always had a lucky break, and there’s been this narrow interpretation on the table for a long time."

 

https://www.businesstimes.com.sg/international/asean/thailands-tweak-tax-regulation-foreign-income-sparks-confusion-worries

 

Being a tax resident of Thailand has been, and can still be, quite advantageous thanks to many characteristics of Thai tax laws. People with considerable offshore income might end up with a <1% global tax rate even in 2024 if most earnings are kept offshore and not remitted. However, taking advantage of Thai hospitality by being a tax resident necessitates that all taxes are being filed correctly and everything is above board.

Exactly!

[OzzBlizz]

25 minutes ago, Eudaimonia said:

 

Even before September 2023 and the current debacle, the best Thai tax experts advised that even the ubiquitous interpretation of a previous year's offshore income being tax-free has no actual and clear base in law. That may not have been something widely discussed, but HNWIs were advised that they need to be careful with their remittances and filings.

 

Check out this quote: "In my view the new interpretation is consistent with what the law has always said," said Jonathan Stuart-Smith, a tax partner at Mazars of Thailand, a tax consultancy. "It’s just that Thailand’s always had a lucky break, and there’s been this narrow interpretation on the table for a long time."

 

https://www.businesstimes.com.sg/international/asean/thailands-tweak-tax-regulation-foreign-income-sparks-confusion-worries

 

Being a tax resident of Thailand has been, and can still be, quite advantageous thanks to many characteristics of Thai tax laws. People with considerable offshore income might end up with a <1% global tax rate even in 2024 if most earnings are kept offshore and not remitted. However, taking advantage of Thai hospitality by being a tax resident necessitates that all taxes are being filed correctly and everything is above board.

"100% Tax-Free Retirement in Thailand

Only income earned inside Thailand is subject to tax during retirement. If you have personal income from pension, interest or other income-producing means from your country of origin it would not be subject to income tax in Thailand." That's what I was sold on years ago, and I never felt I was ever taking advantage of their hospitality by making the conscious choice of spending my already taxed hard earned retirement income here. For the first time I really feel Thailand is taking advantage of me, and it's growing more undesirable every day.

[Woof999]

The addition of the "excludes earnings prior to 1st Jan 2024" made quite the difference to me. I sent a few million baht of my savings to my Thai account last week, but can now send much of the rest (the rest being earnings from 2023) without any fear of additional tax.

 

Funnily enough, 3 days after the money hit my Thai account, I received messages from my Thai bank saying that I'm now a "special" customer and can access additional benefits and services. No idea what they are yet. A little disappointed that they didn't already think I was special. Mum tells me I am all the time.

[Mike Lister]

4 minutes ago, OzzBlizz said:

"100% Tax-Free Retirement in Thailand

Only income earned inside Thailand is subject to tax during retirement. If you have personal income from pension, interest or other income-producing means from your country of origin it would not be subject to income tax in Thailand." That's what I was sold on years ago, and I never felt I was ever taking advantage of their hospitality by making the conscious choice of spending my already taxed hard earned retirement income here. For the first time I really feel Thailand is taking advantage of me, and it's growing more undesirable every day.

Where in the Revenue Department rules and tax code does your quote come from please, what section and paragraph?

 

There, for the first time in 530 posts, I've finally said something useful!

 

 

[Mike Lister]

6 minutes ago, OzzBlizz said:

It was stated from the Thai Embassy years ago. Google it if you can tear yourself from your dull useless existence on here. 

Forum rules are explicit, you must supply a link to support material statement s such as yours....where's the link?

 

Thai Embassy website? That is not the RD! So you're saying you were sold Thailand on the basis of a quote from a private website....that's not too bright, is it!

 

https://www.thaiembassy.com/

Edited January 4 by Mike Lister

[The Cyclist]

23 minutes ago, Ben Zioner said:

* I never brought in my pensions in the year of earning.

 

* Since October 2022 I have an LTR visa.

 

Yes I am sure others will have their own unique reasons.

 

I just jotted down a few that were pertinent to me ( and probably others )

[Mike Lister]

26 minutes ago, Ben Zioner said:

* I never brought in my pensions in the year of earning.

 

* Since October 2022 I have an LTR visa.

You may not have Ben, but my guess is that a high percentage of those using the income method of 40k or 65k per month did. For many, that was the only way they could afford to live here.

[The Cyclist]

40 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

I recall from threads over the years, many many posters saying they had their pension deposited directly into their Thai bank accounts in Thailand!

 

Sure. I'm one of them.

 

Is a pension covered by a DTA classed as ' assessable income ' ?
 

I think not.

[Ben Zioner]

1 minute ago, Mike Lister said:

You may not have Ben, but my guess is that a high percentage of those using the income method of 40k or 65k per month did. For many, that was the only way they could afford to live here.

Yes but most of those in that group would have been able to claim a significant tax credit, so what was left would have been near tax free anyhow. My guess would be that RD was aware of the situation and decide to ignore. The irony is that many posting here are from that group and get all worked up for a couple of hundred Quid, at most.

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, Ben Zioner said:

Yes but most of those in that group would have been able to claim a significant tax credit, so what was left would have been near tax free anyhow. My guess would be that RD was aware of the situation and decide to ignore. The irony is that many posting here are from that group and get all worked up for a couple of hundred Quid, at most.

Yes agreed. Although the RD knowing those things and ignoring them, if that's what they did, doesn't prevent them from using that information against individuals in the future, if they so chose. Let's face it, that loophole law was costing them money, a lot of money. 

[The Cyclist]

1 minute ago, Ben Zioner said:

Yes but most of those in that group would have been able to claim a significant tax credit, so what was left would have been near tax free anyhow. My guess would be that RD was aware of the situation and decide to ignore. The irony is that many posting here are from that group and get all worked up for a couple of hundred Quid, at most.

 

It could also be said that the RD might also  be aware that the income from that ' Group ' was mostly covered by DTA 's and it would be a fruitless exercise chasing them to file tax returns when no monies would be payable.

[Ralf001]

6 hours ago, Jonpail said:

 

 

Year One: Bring in $23,000 (800,000 THB) for immigration, $1,000 for health insurance, and then $1,000 a month for monthly expenses. Remember, if you get less than $25k in the USA, it's NOT taxed.

 

From what I can find, the tax breakdown in USD is as follows:

Income between 0 and 150,000 THB, tax rate at 0%, resulting in 0.00 USD tax.
Income between 150,000 and 300,000 THB, tax rate at 5%.
Income between 300,000 and 500,000 THB, tax rate at 10%.
Income between 500,000 and 750,000 THB, tax rate at 15%.
Income between 750,000 and 1,000,000 THB, tax rate at 20%.
Income between 1,000,000 and 1,145,635.08 THB (after the 30,000 THB deductible), tax rate at 25%.
The total tax on this adjusted income, when converted to USD, is approximately $4,541.36.

 

Would it be more like this ?

 

 

 

[Presnock]

4 hours ago, jerrymahoney said:

For 10+ years I received an affidavit from the US Embassy for 65K+ income either at the embassy in Bangkok or on counselor outreach. And for all those years I then received the one-year extension with me physically present in the Immigration office.

 

Neither the US Embassy counselor officials nor any IMM officer in 2 different locations ever suggested there was any Thailand tax obligations related to my stated or proved foreign-sourced income.

I too though for more than twice that period of time filed for my extensions with some years well over a million baht in pension funds notarized by the Embassy and included a copy of the OPM (govt office responsible for sending govt pension funds) and never once was anything ever mentioned about taxation in Thailand.  From reading the DTA between the US and Thailand, these funds can only be taxed by the paying country unless the receiver is also a Thai national and resident.   I note other folks from different countries also have govt pensions which may not be taxable by the

Thais unless the DTA's are re-written and approved.  From users of this forum I see that many other ASEAN countries are also changing  their

tax policies and some are ignoring foreign pensions for taxes.  BUT, until we see the final approved law we should just about totally ignore all our

comments as we are just guessing what MIGHT be or not be.  HAPPY NEW YEAR

[Ben Zioner]

11 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Yes agreed. Although the RD knowing those things and ignoring them, if that's what they did, doesn't prevent them from using that information against individuals in the future, if they so chose. Let's face it, that loophole law was costing them money, a lot of money. 

Definitely a huge amount, but my guess is that all the big players followed the rule, just as I did, even if I am rather small. So what's left won't be worth the effort. And  they'll have a lot of work in the next few years...

Edited January 4 by Ben Zioner

[Presnock]

33 minutes ago, OzzBlizz said:

It was stated from the Thai Embassy years ago. Google it if you can tear yourself from your dull useless existence on here. 

read the DTA with other countries - USA says it, artilcle 20 and 21 pretty clear.

[Presnock]

for those who doubt about their own funds, read your country's DTA with Thailand.  Just google it and read the version in your language so that you can understand it.  Seems pretty clear to me.

[Happy happy]

So quick question:

If my bank statement shows that the income I have brought into Thailand is less than 60,000 baht in 2024 I do not have to file a tax return right?

(remember have the 800k on deposit that can be used)

 

Edited January 4 by Happy happy

[Jonpail]

41 minutes ago, Ralf001 said:

 

Would it be more like this ?

 

 

 

Your starting numbers are different but I am not an accountant. This is just to predict what we could be exposed to. My 800k is already here, so that doesn't count.

[Mike Lister]

24 minutes ago, Happy happy said:

So quick question:

If my bank statement shows that the income I have brought into Thailand is less than 60,000 baht in 2024 I do not have to file a tax return right?

(remember have the 800k on deposit that can be used)

 

The thresholds are 60k if only savings income and 120k for savings plus other income. 

[Mike Lister]

23 minutes ago, Jonpail said:

Your starting numbers are different but I am not an accountant. This is just to predict what we could be exposed to. My 800k is already here, so that doesn't count.

Plus I'm not sure how many would fund their 800k out of income rather pre 2024 savings, in which case, no tax is due.