Biden administration announces additional $325 million in military aid to Ukraine

[Hanaguma]

3 minutes ago, wwest5829 said:

Wait, didn't I hear similar when the West sold out the Czechs concerning Hitler's demand for the Sudetenland .... 

Welcome to the conversation, Mr. Godwin. So happy you could finally show up!

[heybruce]

48 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

True, that is probably the purpose of the war.  I can understand Russian paranoia to an extent. I mean, NATO was created to counter the USSR and the Warsaw Pact. Once the Soviet Union fell and the Pact dissolved, the raison d'etre for NATO was diminished. Yet, NATO continued to expand even as Russia was weakened.  Now I am not saying that there is an evil plot for NATO to attack Russia, but from their point of view, given their history of being invaded, I can see how they took NATO expansion as aggression. 

 

So give Russia a chunk of Ukraine as a buffer zone. That would secure their western border more or less. In turn, get assurances of the future territorial integrity of Ukraine and a specific promise to not go after NATO countries. Offer assistance with economic development to lure Russia away from the Chinese sphere of influence.  Long term, it is the only way.

Oh, be nice to the Russians.  Like when President George W. Bush peered into Putin's soul and President Barrack Obama offered the reset in relations.  What could go wrong with that?

 

Russia is now China's bitch.  Putin made it so.  That's not going to change.

[heybruce]

46 minutes ago, Thorgal said:

I agree if you consider ethnic Russian people from Donbas and Lugansk as defenders since 2014...

I consider them thugs sponsored by Putin to keep Ukraine unstable.

 

However if a legitimate, internationally monitored vote of all the residents of these regions prior to 2014 were held and these voters actually voted to become part of Russia I would reconsider.  What do you think the chances of that happening are?

[Hanaguma]

4 minutes ago, heybruce said:

So you want to let Russia keep the land that it stole.  I assume you also want to let Russia keep the tens of thousands of Ukrainian children it kidnapped as well.

Yes, if necessary.  Ukranian land and people are not worth the life of one NATO soldier, nor the risk of escalating into a wider conflict.  Sorry, but that is the way it is. Russia could do that, become an international pariah, and let the chips fall where they may. 

[Cory1848]

6 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

Yes, if necessary.  Ukranian land and people are not worth the life of one NATO soldier, nor the risk of escalating into a wider conflict.  Sorry, but that is the way it is. Russia could do that, become an international pariah, and let the chips fall where they may. 

OK, so that’s where you’re coming from. A Ukrainian is less than human. How about this: we give the Ukrainians everything they need to chase the Russians off their soil, let Putin be hounded from office for his stupidity and failure, and let the chips fall where they may. I think, following this strategy, the chips may fall more favorably all around.

[impulse]

$325 million...

 

I wonder how many poor Ukrainian kids' lives that buys, to get tossed into the meat grinder.

Biden will fund the folly, down to the last Ukrainian.

 

[Hanaguma]

7 minutes ago, Cory1848 said:

OK, so that’s where you’re coming from. A Ukrainian is less than human. How about this: we give the Ukrainians everything they need to chase the Russians off their soil, let Putin be hounded from office for his stupidity and failure, and let the chips fall where they may. I think, following this strategy, the chips may fall more favorably all around.

Not less than human, but not my problem   The Ukranians dont have the manpower to run the Russians off. Would you like NATO to solve that problem too? And let's say, for the sake of argument, that Putin gets "hounded from office". Great. Now what? Who will replace him- you think it will be someone reasonable and peaceful? Surely you aren't that naive.  

 

So, letting your chips fall would possibly lead to WW3 and a regime change to an even worse madman than Putin.  Sorry, but no thanks. 

 

[BE88]

From what I know, Ukraine is in a civil war which Russia supported with direct intervention while NATO supported with indirect intervention. But reality does not change Ukraine is in a civil war and this is a fact.

What could be wrong is that the conflict is spreading as it has already threatened Russia with Larov recently so we are at risk of a third world nuclear war.

The government of Ukraine lost the war that it could not win and continue to support it without seeking peace and global collective suicide.

Edited September 22, 2023 by BE88

[dhupverg]

Genius, keep borrowing money from China to fund Zelensky and his cronies.  Money well spent................  Meanwhile in Maui the people are shunned by the gov't.

[Thorgal]

40 minutes ago, heybruce said:

I consider them thugs sponsored by Putin to keep Ukraine unstable.

 

However if a legitimate, internationally monitored vote of all the residents of these regions prior to 2014 were held and these voters actually voted to become part of Russia I would reconsider.  What do you think the chances of that happening are?

The elections were held democratically and the people decided to be part of Nova Rossia. 

 

Which logic allows you to think that you have the right to monitor local elections and supply in the same time weapons to kill the voters and their families...strange way of forcing democracy principles here...

[heybruce]

6 minutes ago, Thorgal said:

The elections were held democratically and the people decided to be part of Nova Rossia. 

 

Which logic allows you to think that you have the right to monitor local elections and supply in the same time weapons to kill the voters and their families...strange way of forcing democracy principles here...

Seriously?  Russia doesn't even allow real elections in Russia.  You think the elections in Russian occupied areas of Ukraine were legitimate?  You must be trolling.

 

I didn't say I wanted to monitor the elections, I was thinking international agencies with experience in the matter.  But I would settle for letting the Ukrainian government doing the monitoring.

[heybruce]

47 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

Yes, if necessary.  Ukranian land and people are not worth the life of one NATO soldier, nor the risk of escalating into a wider conflict.  Sorry, but that is the way it is. Russia could do that, become an international pariah, and let the chips fall where they may. 

Russia is already an international pariah.  And Putin has repeatedly demonstrated that any attempts at appeasement will be met with further aggression.  

 

I'm seriously beginning to think you are a Russian troll.

[Eric Loh]

36 minutes ago, impulse said:

$325 million...

 

I wonder how many poor Ukrainian kids' lives that buys, to get tossed into the meat grinder.

Biden will fund the folly, down to the last Ukrainian.

 

Shame on you for making such demeaning remark when the majority of Ukranians favour fighting until victory to take back all territories seized by Russia including Crimea. Your preverted Maga viewpoint is Putin's hope but Biden stand firm to help Ukraine and the world thank him for that.

https://www.rferl.org/a/32091265.html

[J Branche]

The US has to uphold its title for spending.  It is a government run by big children not a business.  If it was a business there would more focus on managing debt, improving performance, managing costs, and increasing share holder value.  

[rudi49jr]

53 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

Yes, if necessary.  Ukranian land and people are not worth the life of one NATO soldier, nor the risk of escalating into a wider conflict.  Sorry, but that is the way it is. Russia could do that, become an international pariah, and let the chips fall where they may. 

You seem to think it’s possible to negotiate with Russia. “Just give them a chunk of Ukraine”, and that will keep them happy. But it doesn’t work that way, which has been shown many times in world history. You can’t negotiate with crazy power hungry people, they will back out of any peace deal that was reached at any time they see fit, which will probably be pretty soon.
Putin himself wants to reinstate the borders of the old USSR. There is a pretty strong movement in Russia that is convinced that it’s Russia’s destination to be a great and powerful country, and that at least half of Europe (all the countries that used to be behind the iron curtain) actually belong to Russia, and that it’s Russia’s god-given right to take back what used to belong to them.

You say it’s not your problem, but that’s sticking your head in the sand. Of course it’s America’s problem, and Europe’s problem as well, anyone with even the tiniest shred of historic common sense can see that.

You can not let cancer spread, because it will kill you in the end. Sometimes it’s necessary to take painful measures to stop the cancer and save your life.

[Chomper Higgot]

1 hour ago, Hanaguma said:

Yes, if necessary.  Ukranian land and people are not worth the life of one NATO soldier, nor the risk of escalating into a wider conflict.  Sorry, but that is the way it is. Russia could do that, become an international pariah, and let the chips fall where they may. 

And of course Putin will stop at Ukraine.

 

I suggest you revisit the history of appeasement.

[johnnybangkok]

1 hour ago, wwest5829 said:

Wait, didn't I hear similar when the West sold out the Czechs concerning Hitler's demand for the Sudetenland .... 

Exactly.
Against many who thought it a terrible idea, Russia was already “appeased” when it invaded Georgia, resulting in the occupation of Abkhazia and South Ossetia in 2008. It then annexed Crimea in 2014. The invasion of Ukraine then came as little surprise to many. If Putin is allowed to take even a part of Ukraine then what? Does anyone really think he will rest at that? He has openly admitted he wants Russia back to being an imperial power and that includes recovering all “lost” territories. 
As the wise saying goes; if we don’t learn from history then we are doomed to repeat it. 

[Chomper Higgot]

1 hour ago, impulse said:

$325 million...

 

I wonder how many poor Ukrainian kids' lives that buys, to get tossed into the meat grinder.

Biden will fund the folly, down to the last Ukrainian.

 

Perhaps Biden should withhold aid to Ukrainian youths can be sent to the front lines without any weapons.

 

 

 

 

[impulse]

2 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Perhaps Biden should withhold aid to Ukrainian youths can be sent to the front lines without any weapons.

Or perhaps Ukraine should stop sending old men (because the youths are mostly spent) to the front lines to die in an already lost cause.

 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

45 minutes ago, Thorgal said:

The elections were held democratically and the people decided to be part of Nova Rossia. 

 

Which logic allows you to think that you have the right to monitor local elections and supply in the same time weapons to kill the voters and their families...strange way of forcing democracy principles here...

‘Local elections’ Russian style.

 

Invade a sovereign nation, ethnically cleanse a portion of the land seized leaving only ethnic Russians, hold an election.

 

Get the expected result.

 

Move to next piece of seized land, wash, rinse repeat.

 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

Just now, impulse said:

Or perhaps Ukraine should stop sending old men (because the youths are mostly spent) to the front lines to die in an already lost cause.

 

 

Or so Russian propaganda alleges.

 

Thank you for sharing.

[Purdey]

4 hours ago, rudi49jr said:

Not only will Russia succeed in its invasion of Ukraine: Russia will see it as a sign of Western weakness and set their sights on their next victim. Maybe one of the Baltic states, or even Poland.
It will also embolden other countries to try to pull similar stunts. Like China invading Taiwan. So to all those rooting for a Republican win: be careful what you wish for.

I think you understand the danger. Like the domino effect expected following the invasion of South Vietnam, it looks necessary to defend Poland's - and in fact Europe's - eastern flank through military aid to Ukraine or the doors will be opened for further encroachment. And for America and Europe to hold back Russia while a potential front opens at Taiwan would cost more in the long term. 

[Thorgal]

16 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

‘Local elections’ Russian style.

 

Invade a sovereign nation, ethnically cleanse a portion of the land seized leaving only ethnic Russians, hold an election.

 

Get the expected result.

 

Move to next piece of seized land, wash, rinse repeat.

 

 

Crimea : 97% voted YES

Luhansk, Donetsk, Zaporizije, Kherson : 70% voted YES

[ozimoron]

1 hour ago, impulse said:

$325 million...

 

I wonder how many poor Ukrainian kids' lives that buys, to get tossed into the meat grinder.

Biden will fund the folly, down to the last Ukrainian.

 

It's almost as if you don't blame the Russians at all,

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, Thorgal said:

Crimea : 97% voted YES

Luhansk, Donetsk, Zaporizije, Kherson : 70% voted YES

after ethnic cleansing.

[Thorgal]

2 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

after ethnic cleansing.

exactly, after the Ukrainian neo-nazis were defeated and/or fled the region it's obvious that the Russians took control to start elections.

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, Thorgal said:

exactly, after the Ukrainian neo-nazis were defeated and/or fled the region it's obvious that the Russians took control to start elections.

You know that the rigged election was a pretext to annexe the lands.

[Bkk Brian]

1 minute ago, Thorgal said:

Crimea : 97% voted YES

Luhansk, Donetsk, Zaporizije, Kherson : 70% voted YES

The Russians didn't even have full control of the new regions it annexed after the sham vote.........lol

 

With Kalashnikov rifles, Russia drives the staged vote in Ukraine

The purported referendums are illegal under Ukrainian and international law and would not remotely meet basic democratic standards for free and fair elections.

“The referendum is taking place in the occupied city of Kherson under the muzzle of an automatic rifle,” said Galina Luhova, head of the Kherson City Military Administration, who now lives in Ukrainian-controlled territory. “They ring the doorbell of apartments, knock down the doors of those who don’t open them and demand that people come out and put a mark that they agree to join the Russian Federation.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/09/24/ukraine-putin-referendums/

[impulse]

8 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

It's almost as if you don't blame the Russians at all,

Russians have a dog in the fight. 

 

Last time I checked, the US border still ended at the western shore of the Atlantic.

 

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, impulse said:

Russians have a dog in the fight. 

 

Last time I checked, the US border still ended at the western shore of the Atlantic.

 

Wrong on the geographics but we'll let that pass. Last tine I checked the Russian border was not in Ukraine.