Calls for clarification of new Tax regime which appears to target expat foreign income sources

[youngexpat]

Schwab atm card for the win

[kcpattaya]

The social inequality in Thailand sits with the super-rich. 
0.1% of them own more than 45% of all of Thailand's total assets, whereas near 25% of Thais live in poverty.
Inequality... my *ss.

[RichardColeman]

4 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

But that would catch all tourists too (as you suggest)... they have been very clear tourists will not be taxed. 

Exactly - so, how can you tell the difference between a 'resident' taking money from abroad rather than using a bank transfer and a tourist if they are using a foreign visa card ? You can't hence they would need to attack tourists as the tax would be lost on residents removing foreign money.  

 

Also in the UK you are not taxed on a certain level, I think it will be hard for Thailand to implement a system of tax on a sum that needed no tax paid on it !

 

Personally I think they would just say a tax on monies over a million baht up. Smaller would not be worth it and could it the tourists that may have a thai account

 

[Dionigi]

I think that the expat angle is being exploited by the media writing for the English speaking market. This will not affect most expats as they come under the agreement not to double tax income. This is aimed at Thais who have investments abroad and pay no tax in the country where the income is generated and have got away with not paying tax here due to the tax rules that allow such income to be tax free.

[Thaindrew]

15 minutes ago, RichardColeman said:

Surely the logic of this nuts idea would be that ALL foreign ATM charges are now going to have to include thai income tax at X%, since it is basically the transfer of money from abroad and would need taxing at the same rate as bank transfers - TAT will shoot this down before any opposition does

the implication is that we would be obligated to do a year end tax return if "tax resident", so earliest tax would have to be paid would be march 2025 for a 2024 declaration - so they won't be deducting money as its sent in but tax applied based on the tax return. The downsides of this are that they may not believe the tax return and apply "penalties" and damn it gives them more time to put a system in place as it doesn't need to be all in place on Jan 1.  

[actonion]

Why not raise the threshold  so lower earning  Thais  pay income tax,...  my  (Thai) wife,  53 years old, has held an office job all her working life &  has never paid   income  tax

[Thaindrew]

12 minutes ago, Tom H said:

Just pay with a credit card from a Thai bank account abroad. You even can get money from ATM in T. linked to a Thai account abroad:). 

Or just let the money fly in.

or, or, or.

I wont tell you all online????

don't use a Thai address on your overseas account

[paddypower]

13 minutes ago, shackleton said:

I will wait to see what they are actually proposing  rather than second guess

What ever happens I will be still be residing in Thailand ???????? 

To late in life to move else where 

 

Us too. It is premature to guess what will transpire between a 'memo' and tax law passed by parliament. Thailand is notorious for this type of walking back moronic utterances by politicians. My guess, due to 28 years here and my tax background, is that there is a reasonable risk that pension income brought in will be taxed in the same year. this follows the letter of the law.That could leave a loop hole for one to manage the timing of one's remittances inwards to Thailand. I'd be p/o'd if I have to do this, but we could leave our pensions in our Canadian bank for 12 months, before remitting.

 

[Walker88]

Kind of curious how Thailand expects to get access to US or other non-Thai bank records, transactions that result in Capital Gains, other passive income, etc.?

 

The honesty method?

 

"Hi, Thai tax authority. I just sold my Hampton's summer home for $38 million, after buying it in 2008 for $7 million. How much of that gain do you want?"

[paddypower]

6 minutes ago, Dionigi said:

I think that the expat angle is being exploited by the media writing for the English speaking market. This will not affect most expats as they come under the agreement not to double tax income. This is aimed at Thais who have investments abroad and pay no tax in the country where the income is generated and have got away with not paying tax here due to the tax rules that allow such income to be tax free.

please let me know which countries where you can have investment income, but do not need to file a domestic tax return.  ?

[paddypower]

10 minutes ago, actonion said:

Why not raise the threshold  so lower earning  Thais  pay income tax,...  my  (Thai) wife,  53 years old, has held an office job all her working life &  has never paid   income  tax

try to get a proper ''tax receipt'' from any doctors/dentists clinic. the tax system is a joke, 555 this PM is a dangerous tax evading fool.

[LikeItHot]

5 hours ago, smedly said:

it was stated that citizens of countries with a tax agreement would not be not be involved, my income (UK) is already taxed in the UK, my earnings over the years was already taxed, can't speak for everyone of course - some might be laundering money here which would never hit a bank anyway - good luck taxing that

 

perhaps concentrating on earners in Thailand Thai and foreign who have incomes here would be a better approach

You do realize laundering money requires a bank right? It's kind of the whole point.

[spidermike007]

4 hours ago, Captain Monday said:

I do not care who is in the govt at this Point I would prefer Thailand get 100 percent of my income taxes instead of the US.

 

The failed state that confiscates a huge chunk of my wages automatically at the source, wasting it on who knows what.

This is not about the Thai government petitioning the IRS to leave your income alone, and not charge you taxes. This appears to be a double taxation scheme, thought up by mindless men, with zero in the way of vision and grace. 

[LikeItHot]

11 minutes ago, paddypower said:

please let me know which countries where you can have investment income, but do not need to file a domestic tax return.  ?

USA. As long as I keep earning withdrawals on investments below $12.5k. Which is no problem under the current White House administration.  

[LikeItHot]

15 minutes ago, Walker88 said:

Kind of curious how Thailand expects to get access to US or other non-Thai bank records, transactions that result in Capital Gains, other passive income, etc.?

 

The honesty method?

 

"Hi, Thai tax authority. I just sold my Hampton's summer home for $38 million, after buying it in 2008 for $7 million. How much of that gain do you want?"

The same way they enforce murder.  They make a law.  Banks accounts in Thailand require a W9 filing in the US at least.  I wouldn't put it past the US to reciprocate.  It's common among countries with tax treaties.  The difference between murder and tax evasion is the penalties for tax evasion are higher.

[LikeItHot]

34 minutes ago, RichardColeman said:

Exactly - so, how can you tell the difference between a 'resident' taking money from abroad rather than using a bank transfer and a tourist if they are using a foreign visa card ? You can't hence they would need to attack tourists as the tax would be lost on residents removing foreign money.  

 

Also in the UK you are not taxed on a certain level, I think it will be hard for Thailand to implement a system of tax on a sum that needed no tax paid on it !

 

Personally I think they would just say a tax on monies over a million baht up. Smaller would not be worth it and could it the tourists that may have a thai account

 

The 183 day rule makes the distinction in most countries.  

[Surasak]

2 hours ago, Nabbiex said:

Out of curiosity,

if we, expats, may be taxed, then will we be entitled to receive any Thai benefits such as Thai state pension, Thai personal tax income, family benefits, disability allowance, and so forth?

Wow! You could possibly get more out than you put in. Although come to think of it, TIT

[Surasak]

2 hours ago, jacko45k said:

Inclined to say shhhh. They might just forget all about the idea if we don't keep banging on about it. 

All pig fed and ready to fly..

[alanrchase]

1 hour ago, Thailand J said:

https://www.taxesforexpats.com/country-guides/thailand/us-tax-preparation-in-thailand.html

That seems to be about income in Thailand which would not be counted as money transferred from abroad.

[thesetat]

6 hours ago, webfact said:

 

 

The announcement of a change to the tax code, with respect to taxation on the overseas income of foreigners who are resident in Thailand, is raising eyebrows and requires further clarification. Comments last week by Prime Minister Srettha Thavisin that the measure addressed chronic inequality will not assuage fears that a move is afoot to increase the tax liability of foreigners living in Thailand, raising questions about passive and possibly retirement income in the future.

The tax change which has already been defended by Prime Minister Srettha Thavisin as a move against income inequality, is coming with Thailand in talks with economic powers such as the European Union to put in place new trade and investment pacts.

 

It comes after the previous government had launched long-term visa regimes highlighting the zero tax imposed by the Thai government on income not generated in Thailand. This new move is already causing anxiety among foreigners living in the kingdom with passive income from abroad as well as retirees who are still thought to be exempt from tax. However, for the new tax regime to generate extra revenue to fund government stimulus efforts, some foreigners must end up paying more.

There are growing concerns among foreigners about moves by the new Thai government to widen the country’s tax base. They fear this could lead to all incomes earned by foreign residents in the kingdom being subject to tax. It follows an announcement by the Revenue Department in mid-September which is leading to calls for greater clarification and indeed for the government to make it clear that there will be no attempt to impose tax on retirement or pension income from abroad.

calls-for-clarification-of-new-regime-income-tax-foreigners-overseas-income

On September 15th, the Revenue Department in Thailand issued a clarification stating that from the 1st of January 2024, it planned to tax foreign income on all individuals in the kingdom who have been resident in the country for over 180 days.

 

by Joseph O' Connor

 

Full story: Thai Examiner 2023-09-26

 

- Cigna offers a range of visa-compliant plans that meet the minimum requirement of medical treatment, including COVID-19, up to THB 3m. For more information on all expat health insurance plans click here.

 

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seems like they want a piece of the 60,000 baht required to be sent to Thailand monthly from abroad for. the retirement visa as well.... or 40,000 monthly for those with a marriage visa. Guaranteed increase in income for the government and we really can do nothing about it if wanting to stay in Thailand. 

[Moonlover]

Oh for heaven's sake, here we go again!

 

From the original article and for the umpteenth time:

 

'The program will begin January 1, 2024 and apply only to tax residents in Thailand meaning tourists and short term workers will be exempt. Also exempt will be those who have been taxed in a foreign country that has a standing Double Tax Agreement with Thailand'.

 

What could be clearer than that?

 

Thai government to tax all income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Thai Enquirer Main News

[lordgrinz]

Clarity isn't something Thailand is known for, in fact it's exactly the opposite. Confusion and declarations without clarity are the name of the game, investors should expect nothing but ambiguity.

[smedly]

21 minutes ago, LikeItHot said:

You do realize laundering money requires a bank right? It's kind of the whole point.

moving cash around is what I meant

[Galong]

3 hours ago, HandsomeTallFarang said:

Thailand would be the richest country in the world if traffic laws were enforced. Non-stop money printer.

Yeah, seriously!!  Just parking tickets alone in Phuket Town could generate massive income!!!   As it stands, there is ONE CORNER that ONE COP gives daily parking tickets to. On that same road there are dozens of other illegally (and highly inconsiderate) parked cars, taxis, and vans.  I've seen cops just ride past them. It's as if its too much to ask to have them do their job. ????‍♂️ 

[JBChiangRai]

33 minutes ago, LikeItHot said:

You do realize laundering money requires a bank right? It's kind of the whole point.

You don't need a bank, you can use a solicitor in the UK.

[whitfield]

It would be perverse to insist that we show 800,000 baht in our accounts for our retirement visas and then impose 20% tax.  

[BE88]

1 hour ago, Tom H said:

or you transfer 10M Baht in 2023 to avoid tax for the next 10y?

 

????Ony for the rich (non tax payers) of course

I transferred 5M ten years ago, but now it's time to change course by liquidating all with no tax payers????

[alanrchase]

50 minutes ago, Walker88 said:

Kind of curious how Thailand expects to get access to US or other non-Thai bank records, transactions that result in Capital Gains, other passive income, etc.?

 

The honesty method?

 

"Hi, Thai tax authority. I just sold my Hampton's summer home for $38 million, after buying it in 2008 for $7 million. How much of that gain do you want?"

I believe Thailand is joining the Common Reporting Standard as of 01 January 2024. This means that a person's financial information will be shared between signatory  countries to the system.

[shortstop2]

Here's a link to the USA-Thailand tax treaty.  

 

https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-trty/thailand.pdf

 

Article 20 deals with pension and Social Security payments. 

[bob smith]

1 hour ago, Dionigi said:

This is aimed at Thais who have investments abroad and pay no tax in the country where the income is generated and have got away with not paying tax here due to the tax rules that allow such income to be tax free.

these were my initial thoughts when the story first broke.  

 

It remains my gut feeling but as nothing has either been confirmed or denied at this point then we will have to wait and see.

 

Personally, I don't even think this plan will get off the ground, let alone make a maiden flight. Let's just speculate about the logistics of such an event occurring for a second. If their plan is to tax foreigners on their savings accrued outside of Thailand, then there will be a mass exodus of farangs at every income level, rich, poor, comfortable etc. This will leave a gaping hole in the economy and have huge implications for the new government trying to make a good first impression.

 

It would be an incredibly bitter pill for most foreigners to swallow, myself included, and it just would not make any sense to remain here. There are too many options worldwide that don't tax people on their savings, and any future prospective Thai expats will certainly think twice about coming here. If Thailand want's to shoot for the short term gains as they usually do then be my guest, but don't start crying in your noodles when the full impact of your decisions become crystal clear a little further down the line...