‘No turning back’: how the Ukraine war has profoundly changed the EU

[Social Media]

Russia’s invasion has had a major impact on the bloc’s security and energy policies – and even its very raison d’être

by Patrick Wintour Diplomatic editor

 

“The EU has changed. There is no turning back. We have turned out the lights behind us and there is basically only one way.”

The words of the Danish politician and EU commissioner Margrethe Vestager at a conference in May neatly reflect the mood among the Brussels elite, taken aback at their own ability to shed EU bureaucratic torpor, defend Ukraine, embrace enlargement and move closer to fulfilling Ursula von der Leyen’s ambition for the EU to become a “geopolitical force”.

 

“Our response to the invasion was by the hour at first, now not to the same degree, but it is absolutely Europe’s top priority and we will stay supportive of Ukraine until the war is won and Ukraine has been rebuilt, and become a member of the European Union,” Vestager continued.

“I think that is the crucial commitment that has been made, and that will be a better union when that is brought about – a more dynamic union and a more united union.”

Indeed, in the immediate aftermath of the Russian invasion, Josep Borrell, the EU foreign and security chief, argued the EU had grown up, “making more progress in a week toward the objective of being a global security player than it had in the previous decade”. The example of the brave Ukrainian resistance sprang the EU into a newfound sense of purpose.

 

FULL STORY

 

[Tug]

It certainly re vitalized nato big time!putin must be crushed and his expansionist dreams must be denied this isent the 40s it’s a different world 

[thaibeachlovers]

10 minutes ago, Social Media said:

“Our response to the invasion was by the hour at first, now not to the same degree, but it is absolutely Europe’s top priority

What's wrong with these warmongers that they think a war in a foreign country is more important than any of the myriad problems afflicting the EU, such as the illegal immigration chaos in the Mediterranean?

[Tug]

1 minute ago, thaibeachlovers said:

What's wrong with these warmongers that they think a war in a foreign country is more important than any of the myriad problems afflicting the EU, such as the illegal immigration chaos in the Mediterranean?

Gee maybe it’s because one group is un armed in search of a better life and the other group is in their back yard with tanks machine guns aircraft raping murdering and looting on an industrial scale just saying……..

[candide]

4 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

What's wrong with these warmongers that they think a war in a foreign country is more important than any of the myriad problems afflicting the EU, such as the illegal immigration chaos in the Mediterranean?

It's Putin who has been warmongering for years instead of developing the economy of his country and improving the well-being of its citizen.

 

The great Russia! What a joke! The GDP (mainly thanks to energy and minerals) of Spain or Italy  and the life expectancy of Haiti.

[Chomper Higgot]

5 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

What's wrong with these warmongers that they think a war in a foreign country is more important than any of the myriad problems afflicting the EU, such as the illegal immigration chaos in the Mediterranean?

Perhaps they can see multiple problems and not get distracted by your pet ‘immigration’ thing.

[thaibeachlovers]

LOL. The cracks are showing already.

If the stalemate in Ukraine continues IMO the crack will become a chasm as EU governments abandon Ukraine. Seems like the warmongers may be left on their own.

 

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/1/pro-russia-party-claims-victory-in-slovakia-election

The populist party of former Prime Minister Robert Fico that wants to stop military aid to Ukraine and is critical of the European Union and NATO has won Slovakia’s election, results showed on Sunday.

 

and

 

https://www.ukrainianworldcongress.org/hungary-blocks-20-billion-euro-fund-for-ukraines-armed-forces/

Hungary has blocked the EU’s attempt to create a long-term support fund for the Ukrainian military worth 20 billion euros. Budapest intends to prevent the initiative’s implementation further, the Minister of Foreign Affairs of the country, Péter Szijjártó, said.

[sirineou]

19 hours ago, Tug said:

It certainly re vitalized nato big time!putin must be crushed and his expansionist dreams must be denied this isent the 40s it’s a different world 

NATO  is expanding EU is enlarging, yet in your opinion itls Putin's expansionist dreams. If it wasn't so sad it would be funny.   

[thaibeachlovers]

4 minutes ago, sirineou said:

NATO  is expanding EU is enlarging, yet in your opinion itls Putin's expansionist dreams. If it wasn't so sad it would be funny.   

Yes, the wannabe's in Brussels must be laughing as their ( IMO ) propaganda is swallowed hook line and sinker by the ( IMO ) gullible.

[sirineou]

16 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Yes, the wannabe's in Brussels must be laughing as their ( IMO ) propaganda is swallowed hook line and sinker by the ( IMO ) gullible.

The quote " A little learning  is a dangerous thing"  attributed to Alexander Pope has never been more true  than than this instance. 

because a little knowledge can be easily manipulated  

Propaganda is only effective when it contains part of the truth. and since  many only have part of the truth, many otherwise intelligent and well meaning people are susceptible and easily manipulated. 

It is really sad.

With the fall of the Soviet union , we had a chance to bring Russia in the fold of liberal democracy and once again we failed to capitalise.

In the future It would IMO viewed as the greatest blunder of the 21 century. 

[thaibeachlovers]

7 minutes ago, sirineou said:

The quote " A little learning  is a dangerous thing"  attributed to Alexander Pope has never been more true  than than this instance. 

because a little knowledge can be easily manipulated  

Propaganda is only effective when it contains part of the truth. and since  many only have part of the truth, many otherwise intelligent and well meaning people are susceptible and easily manipulated. 

It is really sad.

With the fall of the Soviet union , we had a chance to bring Russia in the fold of liberal democracy and once again we failed to capitalise.

In the future It would IMO viewed as the greatest blunder of the 21 century. 

The west needs a boogey man to scare the easily influenced to keep them submissive, and justify the military industrial complex. I doubt China was a sufficient threat at that time, so IMO it had to be Russia. It worked quite well, seeing as how many believe that if "we" don't stop Russia in Ukraine they will take us all over and make us slaves.

[JayClay]

1 minute ago, thaibeachlovers said:

It worked quite well, seeing as how many believe that if "we" don't stop Russia in Ukraine they will take us all over and make us slaves.

Maybe "many of us" have learnt from history....

[thaibeachlovers]

1 minute ago, JayClay said:

Maybe "many of us" have learnt from history....

Not sure what you mean with that, but if you mean Russian expansion, in history, which western country has been invaded by Russia, since post WW2.

[JayClay]

1 minute ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Not sure what you mean with that

Yes. I know.

[thaibeachlovers]

Just now, JayClay said:

Yes. I know.

Any reply to my question?

[JayClay]

6 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Any reply to my question?

It's such a ridiculous question there's no point me really answering it. I'm sure you'll come up with yet another ridiculous response. I'll indulge you this time but then I'm done...

 

If we had to ensure all current circumstances were 100% identical to a previous situation before we learned anything, we'd never be able to learn anything at all.

 

History teaches us (those of us who are genuinely interested in learning) that dictators are never satisfied and appeasing them only stands to make them feel vindicated in their quest. History tells us that no war-hungry leader has ever stopped after conquering a single territory.

Edited October 2, 2023 by JayClay

[Skipalongcassidy]

And once again... the USA will end up paying for it.

[thaibeachlovers]

2 minutes ago, JayClay said:

It's such a ridiculous question there's no point me really answering it. I'm sure you'll come up with yet another ridiculous response. I'll indulge you this time but then I'm done...

 

If we had to ensure all current circumstances were 100% identical to a previous situation before we learned anything, we'd never be able to learn anything at all.

 

History teaches us (those of us who are genuinely interested in learning) that dictators are never satisfied and appeasing them only stands to make them feel vindicated in their quest. History tells us that no war-hungry leader has ever stopped after conquering a single territory.

Feel free to not respond, but as you no doubt know, Russia has NOT invaded any western country post WW2.

One can pontificate on the faults of dictators as much as wanted, but nuclear weapons and MAD pretty much guarantee that no western country will be invaded by Russia in the foreseeable future.

As to whether Russia invades any countries to the east, that's no concern of mine. Countries have been invaded since countries existed yet the human race has survived and overpopulated to the point it's likely to become extinct.

[JayClay]

8 minutes ago, JayClay said:

I'm sure you'll come up with yet another ridiculous response

Yep

[thaibeachlovers]

1 minute ago, JayClay said:

Yep

Stones and greenhouses comes to mind.

[retarius]

I was very pleased to see the results of the Slovakian election where the people voted to reject funding for Ukraine and put in some sensible leaders who promise don't to send more money to corrupt nazis. The other piece of good news of course was that some of the GOP in Congress finally had enough and said no aid for Ukraine in the funding package. The NO AID FOR UKRAINe movement is growing, and with it hopefully an end to the war and the threat of a nuclear catastrophe. Shame on the US for engineering this conflict, and shame in the Ukrainians for being so stupid as to fight to the last Ukrainian. 

[JonnyF]

21 hours ago, Social Media said:

The words of the Danish politician and EU commissioner Margrethe Vestager at a conference in May neatly reflect the mood among the Brussels elite, taken aback at their own ability to shed EU bureaucratic torpor, defend Ukraine, embrace enlargement and move closer to fulfilling Ursula von der Leyen’s ambition for the EU to become a “geopolitical force”.

No over-reach there then ????.

 

All this is simply paving the way for a European Army as the technocrats in Brussels march on towards a federal Europe, despite the wishes of the nation states. 

 

Thank god we left. A decision that is looking wiser with every passing month.

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12491045/Germany-production-falls-recession-Brexit-Britain-rises.html

 

[Chomper Higgot]

35 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

No over-reach there then ????.

 

All this is simply paving the way for a European Army as the technocrats in Brussels march on towards a federal Europe, despite the wishes of the nation states. 

 

Thank god we left. A decision that is looking wiser with every passing month.

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12491045/Germany-production-falls-recession-Brexit-Britain-rises.html

 

I think you get the 08:00 to 09:00 award for the most off topic link posted into a thread.

 

[RayC]

7 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Not sure what you mean with that, but if you mean Russian expansion, in history, which western country has been invaded by Russia, since post WW2.

Maybe you don't equate the Soviet Union with Russia and/or consider former Warsaw Pact countries such as Czech (o)slovakia, (East) Germany, Hungary, Poland to be "western countries", in which case my following paragraph is null and void.

 

You seem to have forgotten about the whole Cold War era; in particular, the Soviet Union's expansion into Central Europe and the presence of Soviet tanks in Budapest and Prague after demonstrations against the Soviet-backed regimes in Hungary and Czechoslovakia during the '50s and '60s. 

 

What exactly is it about Soviet/ Russian expansionism and domination that you find so appealing?

Edited October 2, 2023 by RayC
Grammar

[RayC]

6 hours ago, JonnyF said:

No over-reach there then ????.

 

All this is simply paving the way for a European Army as the technocrats in Brussels march on towards a federal Europe, despite the wishes of the nation states. 

Certain factions in the US would like to scale back their commitment to NATO. Don't you think it wise that Europe should have plans to prepare for that possibility?

 

6 hours ago, JonnyF said:

 

Thank god we left. A decision that is looking wiser with every passing month.

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12491045/Germany-production-falls-recession-Brexit-Britain-rises.html

 

Wise based on the fact that an EU member state - albeit the biggest economy - is currently faltering?

 

I've asked this before and received no answer, but what is the relationship between Brexit and Germany's current economic malaise? Would its' economic woes be solved by either the UK rejoining the EU and/or Germany leaving (the EU)?

 

For someone who has said that they bear Germany (or other individual EU member states) no ill will, you do post a lot of posts seemingly taking pleasure at Germany's current problems.

[JonnyF]

10 minutes ago, RayC said:

I've asked this before and received no answer, but what is the relationship between Brexit and Germany's current economic malaise? Would its' economic woes be solved by either the UK rejoining the EU and/or Germany leaving (the EU)?

https://www.export.org.uk/news/604569/UK-Germany-trade-falls-sharply-since-Brexit-vote-official-German-data-shows.htm

 

 

I take no pleasure in Germany's decline but facts are facts. The anti Britain/anti Brexit mob on here certainly love pointing out any UK issues so it seems a bit hypocritical to suggest the Brits should keep quiet about the current issues in the EU. It's not just Germany BTW.

 

https://www.reuters.com/markets/europe/euro-zone-economy-likely-contracted-this-quarter-pmi-2023-09-22/

[RayC]

24 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

https://www.export.org.uk/news/604569/UK-Germany-trade-falls-sharply-since-Brexit-vote-official-German-data-shows.htm

 

 

That adds further evidence to Michel Barnier's assertion that there would be no winners from Brexit. 

 

I can't for the life of me see how this is in any way beneficial.

 

24 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

 

 I take no pleasure in Germany's decline but facts are facts. The anti Britain/anti Brexit mob on here certainly love pointing out any UK issues so it seems a bit hypocritical to suggest the Brits should keep quiet about the current issues in the EU. It's not just Germany BTW.

 

https://www.reuters.com/markets/europe/euro-zone-economy-likely-contracted-this-quarter-pmi-2023-09-22/

But the point is that Brexit supporters need to construct a hypothesis that shows a causal link between a downturn in the EU economy(ies) and Brexit, similar to the OBR report on the effects of Brexit on the UK economy.

 

Your first link demonstrates correlation not causation (although imo the casual link is almost certainly there). However, as I indicated previously, how an event that has a seemingly negative economic effect on both parties can be seen as a success is beyond me.

[JonnyF]

16 minutes ago, RayC said:

That adds further evidence to Michel Barnier's assertion that there would be no winners from Brexit. 

 

I can't for the life of me see how this is in any way beneficial.

 

But the point is that Brexit supporters need to construct a hypothesis that shows a causal link between a downturn in the EU economy(ies) and Brexit, similar to the OBR report on the effects of Brexit on the UK economy.

 

Your first link demonstrates correlation not causation (although imo the casual link is almost certainly there). However, as I indicated previously, how an event that has a seemingly negative economic effect on both parties can be seen as a success is beyond me.

It is quite clear that German exports to the UK have dropped since Brexit. To suggest there is no causal link is laughable.

 

https://www.ft.com/content/913c7e84-fd2d-4cb5-be0c-8cd865f37462

 

We warned this would happen. And now it has. The fact that you are trying to deflect with your whole "why are you celebrating it" spiel is just an attempt to ignore the facts. The EU took the UK for granted and then tried to punish us when we exercised our democratic right to leave. The EU has nobody to blame but itself. 

[RayC]

1 minute ago, JonnyF said:

It is quite clear that German exports to the UK have dropped since Brexit. To suggest there is no causal link is laughable.

 

https://www.ft.com/content/913c7e84-fd2d-4cb5-be0c-8cd865f37462

 

We warned this would happen. And now it has. The fact that you are trying to deflect with your whole "why are you celebrating it" spiel is just an attempt to ignore the facts. The EU took the UK for granted and then tried to punish us when we exercised our democratic right to leave. The EU has nobody to blame but itself. 

Pot/ kettle. I am not the one deflecting. 

 

I couldn't have been clearer: Both the EU and the UK (more so the latter) are economically poorer because of Brexit, and I acknowledged the casual link between the drop in German exports to the UK and Brexit: Try reading and understanding what is actually written.

 

You then resort to the usual Brexiter lament: They are punishing us for leaving. Absolutely nonsense. The EU had the stronger negotiating hand and was always going to dictate what any deal looked like. In any event, whatever happened to the Brexiter matra:  'They need us more than we need them'?

 

No doubt your next post will contain a rant about the anti-democratic, corrupt EU and the misplaced notion that the UK has regained its' sovereignty (this only has any practical truth if you want to live in a North Korea-like state)

 

The fact that you ignore the increasingly mounting evidence that Brexit was a disaster and that you cannot supply any evidence of its' benefits or construct even the flimsiest premise to support it says it all. 

 

I'm surprised that you can hear anything given how deep your head is in the sand. 

[Chomper Higgot]

30 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

It is quite clear that German exports to the UK have dropped since Brexit. To suggest there is no causal link is laughable.

 

https://www.ft.com/content/913c7e84-fd2d-4cb5-be0c-8cd865f37462

 

We warned this would happen. And now it has. The fact that you are trying to deflect with your whole "why are you celebrating it" spiel is just an attempt to ignore the facts. The EU took the UK for granted and then tried to punish us when we exercised our democratic right to leave. The EU has nobody to blame but itself. 

The decline in German exports to the UK include tools, machinery and components that would otherwise be used in UK’s own production and exports.

 

Nobody in the UK is looking at Germany and thinking the mess the UK is acceptable because Germany is facing its own problems.

 

Right now the UK Governing Party are at each other’s throats in Manchester, they know what’s coming their way at the election and it’s not because BREXIT is a success and life in the UK is going just swell.

 

 

Edited October 2, 2023 by Chomper Higgot