Confused about my visa options!

[Nedrapter]

Hello, members of the community!

I'm a Greek citizen who is interested in moving to Thailand. My partner (Thai female) is living in Bangkok, and we'd live to live together (we decided in Thailand)., I'm 34 years old, she's 30. If possible, we'd like the move to happen next May. While marriage is in the plans, and a visa through it would be the easiest, we don't feel like rushing it just for the visa. Ideally, we'd like to live together for a year before that. I'm a freelancer and I work remotely, all I need for my work is a computer and a good internet connection. Ultimately I'd like to live in Thailand, learn Thai and live there permanently with my partner.
I've been reading the visa options, but I'm getting more and more confused. Can someone explain to me what my options?

[JimTripper]

Get a multiple entry tourist visa and renew as many times as possible, or an elite visa. Try to switch to an education visa while you're here if you can.

Edited October 3, 2023 by JimTripper

[ezzra]

Hummm, what would Zorba do? (Sorry i couldn't resist the pun)

[Red Phoenix]

In your case (not being officially married yet, and under 50 years of age so not eligible for a 'retirement' Visa) the 6-months MultipleEntry Tourist Visa (METV) would probably be your best option.  When entering Thailand on that Visa you will be stamped in with a Permission to stay for 2 months.  At the end of those 2 months you would then have to exit and re-enter Thailand (can be done same day, a so-called border-run) or alternatively apply for a once-per-entry 30-day extension of stay at a local Imm Office (1.900,- THB) with the 30-days on the spot added to your Permission to stay.  When after those max 90 days re-entering Thailand you will once again be stamped in for 2 months, which once again can be extended again for 30-days.  By re-entering Thailand on the last day of your Visa validity (6 months from date of issue), you are thus able to stay almost 9 months in Thailand,  

At the end of the period of you staying with an METV in Thailand, you can consider various options to remain there.  E.g. if you are in mean time officially married, you could apply for a 90-day SingleEntry or 1-year MultipleEntry Non Imm O Visa for reason of marriage to a Thai national.  Such Visa can be applied for in your home-country, at the local Thai Imm Office where you have your official address for immigration purposes, or at a Thai Embassy/Consulate in a near-by country.  The Thai Consulate in Savannakhet, Laos (just across the Thai Friendship bridge from Mukdahan) is by far the easiest way to get hold of such Visum. 

[DrJack54]

OP, as already mentioned METV is an option to obtain about 9 months.

With couple of visa exempt border runs you could make a year.

 

Then time for ring. 

 

[Nedrapter]

On 10/3/2023 at 5:27 AM, Red Phoenix said:

In your case (not being officially married yet, and under 50 years of age so not eligible for a 'retirement' Visa) the 6-months MultipleEntry Tourist Visa (METV) would probably be your best option.  When entering Thailand on that Visa you will be stamped in with a Permission to stay for 2 months.  At the end of those 2 months you would then have to exit and re-enter Thailand (can be done same day, a so-called border-run) or alternatively apply for a once-per-entry 30-day extension of stay at a local Imm Office (1.900,- THB) with the 30-days on the spot added to your Permission to stay.  When after those max 90 days re-entering Thailand you will once again be stamped in for 2 months, which once again can be extended again for 30-days.  By re-entering Thailand on the last day of your Visa validity (6 months from date of issue), you are thus able to stay almost 9 months in Thailand,  

At the end of the period of you staying with an METV in Thailand, you can consider various options to remain there.  E.g. if you are in mean time officially married, you could apply for a 90-day SingleEntry or 1-year MultipleEntry Non Imm O Visa for reason of marriage to a Thai national.  Such Visa can be applied for in your home-country, at the local Thai Imm Office where you have your official address for immigration purposes, or at a Thai Embassy/Consulate in a near-by country.  The Thai Consulate in Savannakhet, Laos (just across the Thai Friendship bridge from Mukdahan) is by far the easiest way to get hold of such Visum. 

Is the visa a document I carry with me at all times, or is it something the Thai goverment has and is associated with my passport? I haven't needed visa in any of my travels previously.

And a follow up question: As the METV does not provide permit to work there, can I still get income from my remote business while I'm still there? It's going to be in a greek bank and taxed in Greece. I'm not sure what would count as "working" in my case.

[Red Phoenix]

2 hours ago, Nedrapter said:

Is the visa a document I carry with me at all times, or is it something the Thai goverment has and is associated with my passport? I haven't needed visa in any of my travels previously.

When you apply for an eVisa it is a separate document e-mailed to you when your application is approved.  Obviously that document then needs to be carried along with your passport.

When applying in person the Visa is often a 'sticker' glued in your passport and stamped when provided. 

When you are eligible for a VisaExempt entry (without a Visa), you will be provided  with a Permission to Stay stamp in your passport by border-immigration.  Such VisaExempt entry is considered a 'tourist Visa' (your valid passport being the evidence, that you were eligible for it). 

[Red Phoenix]

2 hours ago, Nedrapter said:

As the METV does not provide permit to work there, can I still get income from my remote business while I'm still there? It's going to be in a greek bank and taxed in Greece. I'm not sure what would count as "working" in my case.

Doing on-line work is condoned by Thai Immigration.  

The criterium being that the work that you are doing is not 'taking away work from Thai citizens'.  So when staying in Thailand you would need a Work Permit when providing paid on-line consultancy to Thai customers when that work could also be done by Thai.  

But doing on-line work for foreign customers while staying in Thailand does not require a Work Permit.  However, to avoid the hassle of possible investigation whether your on-line work is permitted, it is recommended to keep low profile when doing on-line work while on a Tourist Visa or Non Imm O Visa for reason of retirement.

- - -

Taxation of the income from such on-line work is another matter.  In principle you should declare that income also to the Thai Tax authorities.  But if your on-line work is fully legal and you already pay income tax on it in your home-country, and your home-country has a 'non-double taxation' pact with Thailand, it would only be a time-waster for all involved when declaring it to the Thai Tax authorities.  That would result in you being taxed by them and then you applying for the reimbursement as you already paid the taxes in your home-country. 

[DrJack54]

3 hours ago, Nedrapter said:

And a follow up question: As the METV does not provide permit to work there, can I still get income from my remote business while I'm still there? It's going to be in a greek bank and taxed in Greece. I'm not sure what would count as "working" in my case.

Both your questions have been answered.

With your remote online work no problem.

Have funds for that deposited into your Greek bank.

One small issue is that I assume you do not have a Thai bank account.

What plans do you have to transfer from your Greek bank to Thailand? 

 

Regards your visa permit....

You make a printout for the email you receive and present with pp.

Be aware that io check it very carefully against the details in your passport so when you receive the eVisa carefully check for and details that do not match your pp..

Edited October 5, 2023 by DrJack54

[bigt3116]

2 hours ago, Red Phoenix said:

The criterium being that the work that you are doing is not 'taking away work from Thai citizens'.

This is NOT a criteria at all !! That is a bar-stool myth

 

There is a list of occupations that are closed to foreigners

 

All work requires a work permit and relevant visa/extension (I understand that nomads are just under the radar)

 

 

[ChaiyaTH]

Let me guess, another guy doing a long distance relationship, to realize nothing is what it seems as soon he moves here. And he then is asking about visa options already? This is gonna be a popcorn follow up topic for sure in a year.

 

You can already tell the level of intelligence, as the Thai partner can't even explain the visa options to him lol.

Edited October 5, 2023 by ChaiyaTH

[Red Phoenix]

7 minutes ago, bigt3116 said:

This is NOT a criteria at all !! That is a bar-stool myth

There is a list of occupations that are closed to foreigners

All work requires a work permit and relevant visa/extension (I understand that nomads are just under the radar)

Yes, you are correct: it is not a 'criterium' but it helps to understand the grey area w.r.t. doing on-line work in Thailand.

When you would be doing specialized on-line work in Thailand for foreign customers and you do not have a Work Permit, such work is condoned by Immigration [some high-ranking Imm Officers have made statements to that effect].

[roo860]

7 minutes ago, ChaiyaTH said:

Let me guess, another guy doing a long distance relationship, to realize nothing is what it seems as soon he moves here. And he then is asking about visa options already? This is gonna be a popcorn follow up topic for sure in a year.

 

You can already tell the level of intelligence, as the Thai partner can't even explain the visa options to him lol.

Let me guess, you're a total <deleted >.

[Red Phoenix]

17 minutes ago, ChaiyaTH said:

You can already tell the level of intelligence, as the Thai partner can't even explain the visa options to him lol.

It is unrealistic in the extreme to expect that his Thai partner would be able to explain to the OP the complex quagmire of Thai immigration regulations and Visa options.

And trying to figure it out himself by reading the Visa regulations on the Thai Embassies websites will also provide him with more questions than answers.

Hence the popularity of Immigration/Visa Forums like this one, where Newbies can post the questions they have and get response from members that have experience in these matters.  

Edited October 5, 2023 by Red Phoenix

[KhunLA]

19 minutes ago, ChaiyaTH said:

Let me guess, another guy doing a long distance relationship, to realize nothing is what it seems as soon he moves here. And he then is asking about visa options already? This is gonna be a popcorn follow up topic for sure in a year.

 

You can already tell the level of intelligence, as the Thai partner can't even explain the visa options to him lol.

Since the GF is in not hurry to marry, speaks well of her.  And if my wife asked me of her visa options to go the USA, I wouldn't have a clue.  So that's a bit irrelevant.

[brianthainess]

As said you will need a Thai bank account and have 400,000b deposited before you can get a marriage extension/visa normally 2 months before. Or monthly deposits.

bit early to go into all those details yet, but a bank Thai account in your name only is a must.

[JayClay]

3 hours ago, ChaiyaTH said:

You can already tell the level of intelligence, as the Thai partner can't even explain the visa options to him lol.

I personally would be much more concerned if she did know all about the visa options available to foreigners...

[BritTim]

Since you plan on learning Thai anyway, I would personally enter with a single entry tourist visa, planning to quickly find a good quality Thai course that comes with a one-year permission to stay. This will not be the cheapest course available (those are just visa mills) but worth it. At your age, taking classes and living with a Thai girlfriend, you ought to be proficient enough in Thai within a year for all every day activities.

 

For your work, do not worry. Digital nomads are 100% tolerated, albeit working without the unobtainable work permit is technically illegal.

[bamboozled]

Where are folks getting this info that online work is condoned or 100% tolerated? I know lots of people do indeed do it and have had no problems and I have seen a lot of jabbering about it by all types both gov. officials and TV/Asean Now surfers/lurkers. But I'm not convinced that it's the same thing as condoned or 100% tolerated. Not that I've done specific research on the subject but I have been around the block a few times and would love to see this in writing somewhere. Again, not trying to be nit-picky just precise as possible.

 

I wouldn't go around shouting "I'm working online!" for all the world to hear. I guess I would be comfortable with the word "tolerated" but not the "100%" part and "tolerated" possibly only until the next muck raker gets a new rake.

 

Summation: it happens a lot and you most likely won't have an issue but I don't think there is any new law stating it is fine and dandy. Please correct me if I'm wrong and I hope I am. It's not THAT long ago that Immi was swarming co-working spaces and laying waste to online workers. Of course, I'm kind of old and time flies. Maybe it WAS that long ago.

 

Upward and onward with the arts... Cheers, folks!

[BritTim]

3 hours ago, bamboozled said:

It's not THAT long ago that Immi was swarming co-working spaces and laying waste to online workers.

Your recollection on this differs from mine. I can recall a single raid on a co-working space up in Chiang Mai that, in the end, resulted in no prosecutions, and which was widely regarded to have been a mistake.

 

Over the last decade, there have been raids on online workers in some very specific situations, but none on co-working spaces involving digital nomads with no Thai employer or Thai customers. That is in spite of the fact that the authorities are well aware of what is going on.

 

The authorities are well aware that the presence of digital nomads in Thailand benefits the economy. They have no desire to deter them. That said, they are not going to make a public announcement that the labour laws can freely be broken. When laws are not enforced, they are just quietly ignored. In the same way, Thailand is not going to announce that breaking the laws against prostitution is OK, but you will not find your hotel room being raided because you are in bed with a 25-yesr-old bar girl.

[Nedrapter]

Thank you all for the helpful answers. This has been way more clarifying than all my searches online.
I want to note that my job doesn't involve Thailand at all. I'm a game-host for ttrpg online games (for those who don't know what that is, it has nothing to do with gambling of any sort). My clientele is 95% North American, 5% European, citizens. So I don't think it can be considered taking an existing job position by a Thai person. To someone unfamiliar with the field, it would simply look like I'm chatting with people online.
As for the bank account, I'm planning to open one and transfer some money from my Greek accounts there. Hopefully that does not have any issues. And of course depositing the 400,000 at least 2 months prior to the marriage visa.
So far it seems that the METV visa is the most optimal, with possible ED visa if needed, unless those two have other considerable differences than the time length and having to do compulsory classes.

[DrJack54]

6 hours ago, Nedrapter said:

Thank you all for the helpful answers. This has been way more clarifying than all my searches online.
I want to note that my job doesn't involve Thailand at all. I'm a game-host for ttrpg online games (for those who don't know what that is, it has nothing to do with gambling of any sort). My clientele is 95% North American, 5% European, citizens. So I don't think it can be considered taking an existing job position by a Thai person. To someone unfamiliar with the field, it would simply look like I'm chatting with people online.
As for the bank account, I'm planning to open one and transfer some money from my Greek accounts there. Hopefully that does not have any issues. And of course depositing the 400,000 at least 2 months prior to the marriage visa.
So far it seems that the METV visa is the most optimal, with possible ED visa if needed, unless those two have other considerable differences than the time length and having to do compulsory classes.

That's a good summary and doable plan.

Your online work is not an issue and also banking idea the way to go.

One issue you will have is "opening Thai bank account in your name only"

There are threads about that. 

You certainly won't open one easily in Bangkok with a METV.

 

Only one opinion......I suggest stay away from the ED visa.

As I mentioned previously a METV gives up to 9 months and you are permitted two visa exempt border via land per calendar year.

With extensions that's another 4 months. 

If married at some point you can move to Non O and subsequent extensions .

Happy days

[bamboozled]

10 hours ago, BritTim said:

Your recollection on this differs from mine. I can recall a single raid on a co-working space up in Chiang Mai that, in the end, resulted in no prosecutions, and which was widely regarded to have been a mistake.

 

Over the last decade, there have been raids on online workers in some very specific situations, but none on co-working spaces involving digital nomads with no Thai employer or Thai customers. That is in spite of the fact that the authorities are well aware of what is going on.

 

The authorities are well aware that the presence of digital nomads in Thailand benefits the economy. They have no desire to deter them. That said, they are not going to make a public announcement that the labour laws can freely be broken. When laws are not enforced, they are just quietly ignored. In the same way, Thailand is not going to announce that breaking the laws against prostitution is OK, but you will not find your hotel room being raided because you are in bed with a 25-yesr-old bar girl.

Hi Tim, you may be totally correct. No doubt they are aware. Again, I'm not trying to pick a fight or say you are wrong, necessarily. I just question where this "info" is coming from. Has it been stated somewhere that they have no desire to deter online workers? If so, that's great.

 

The mood in the air at the time of that raid in CM was pretty sour. I don't recall if there were many or just one. But teachers were getting nicked and kicked out, it seemed, left and right. In fact, there was, so it appeared, a large exodus of foreigners because things had gotten unpleasant. It really felt like we foreigners were not wanted here. Well, I certainly felt like that.

 

The fact is, unless I'm mistaken, any work in Thailand done without a work permit is illegal, still. Yes, the gov. does not want foreigners taking jobs away from Thais. But that doesn't mean that work that doesn't take a job away from a Thai is therefore legal. I have no crystal ball or friends in high places and maybe I'm stuck mentally in the past when folks were getting nicked all the time, so it seemed, for working online or carrying their own dirty plate back to the kitchen in their girlfriends restaurant just because they were going that way.

 

I guess, ultimately, my point is to not forget that whether condoned or not, I believe you can get into trouble for working without a work permit, if wrong place/wrong time/wrong person has it in for you.

[BritTim]

11 hours ago, Nedrapter said:

Thank you all for the helpful answers. This has been way more clarifying than all my searches online.
I want to note that my job doesn't involve Thailand at all. I'm a game-host for ttrpg online games (for those who don't know what that is, it has nothing to do with gambling of any sort). My clientele is 95% North American, 5% European, citizens. So I don't think it can be considered taking an existing job position by a Thai person. To someone unfamiliar with the field, it would simply look like I'm chatting with people online.
As for the bank account, I'm planning to open one and transfer some money from my Greek accounts there. Hopefully that does not have any issues. And of course depositing the 400,000 at least 2 months prior to the marriage visa.
So far it seems that the METV visa is the most optimal, with possible ED visa if needed, unless those two have other considerable differences than the time length and having to do compulsory classes.

In deciding to rely on an METV, just recognise that this will involve regular trips outside Thailand. Each entry on the METV gives you a 60-day (59 night) permission to stay. It is possible to acquire a 30-day extension at the local immigration office on payment of 1,900 baht, but then you must leave and re-enter Thailand. Depending on where you are in Thailand (and your desire to travel anyway) this can be a hassle. Obviously, there are associated costs as well.

 

The Non Ed visa and extensions have received a bad rap because of visa mill schools that do not really teach you Thai and have been used as a means of staying without studying. If you use a reputable school with the intention of really learning the language, there should be no problem. It obviates the need for border bounces to extend your stay. On the other hand, it would not be the best choice if you do want to spend some of your time travelling outside Thailand.

[Celsius]

11 hours ago, Nedrapter said:

I want to note that my job doesn't involve Thailand at all.

 

You can note it all you want, but according to Thai law you will be working illegally.

 

So, once you come here make sure you keep a low profile. 99.9% won't care, but there is always someone who will itch to report you. This forum being a great example. 

[Nedrapter]

I'm getting the picture now much better! Thank you everyone!
Some subsequent questions that come to mind.

1. The METV visa, do I have to pre-arranged it before I arrive in Thailand from my country (Greece), or does it have to happen in Thailand in my first 30days?
2. If someone is an owner of a hotel business in Greece and has income from that, does that count as working if they are staying in Thailand and spending there some of that income?

[DrJack54]

32 minutes ago, Nedrapter said:

I'm getting the picture now much better! Thank you everyone!
Some subsequent questions that come to mind.

1. The METV visa, do I have to pre-arranged it before I arrive in Thailand from my country (Greece), or does it have to happen in Thailand in my first 30days?
2. If someone is an owner of a hotel business in Greece and has income from that, does that count as working if they are staying in Thailand and spending there some of that income?

Q1 You apply for METV in Greece.

Cannot obtain in Thailand.

Q2 You don't need to show income

      Funds in Geek bank account            enough

[Nedrapter]

19 hours ago, DrJack54 said:

Q1 You apply for METV in Greece.

Cannot obtain in Thailand.

Q2 You don't need to show income

      Funds in Geek bank account            enough

Spending the money in Thailand through the Greek bank account would be terrible though; (as the fees for transactions will be quite high). And since I'd be trying to open an account in a Thai bank for the 400,000 Baht needed for the marriage visa, is it not legal to transfer money to a Thai account?

[DrJack54]

17 minutes ago, Nedrapter said:

Spending the money in Thailand through the Greek bank account would be terrible though; (as the fees for transactions will be quite high). And since I'd be trying to open an account in a Thai bank for the 400,000 Baht needed for the marriage visa, is it not legal to transfer money to a Thai account?

Myself and many others use money transfer companies.

This is covered in "banking finance" forum.

WISE is recommended.

Opening a bank in Thailand is not as simple as one would imagine.

Where will be based in Thailand

[Red Phoenix]

1 hour ago, Nedrapter said:

Spending the money in Thailand through the Greek bank account would be terrible though; (as the fees for transactions will be quite high). And since I'd be trying to open an account in a Thai bank for the 400,000 Baht needed for the marriage visa, is it not legal to transfer money to a Thai account?

Many people opt to enter Thailand VisaExempt (without a Visa) or on a Tourist Visa, and then when they still have at least 15 days left on the Permission to stay they received on entry, apply for a 90-day Non Imm O Visa (either for reason of marriage or for reason of retirement) at the Imm Office of the province where they plan to reside. 

There are however 2 caveats when taking that route:

#1 - When you do not already have a Thai bank-account on your personal name, it will be very difficult (but not impossible) to open such an account, because contrary to Western countries where banks are welcoming new customers, Thai banks impose (sometimes impossible) requirements for foreign customers to open an account with them. 

And in order to meet the financial requirement for the 90-day Non Imm O Visa application, you need to show evidence of having the required funds on your personal Thai bank-account at the moment of application.

#2 - There are a couple of rogue Imm Offices that refuse to do the 'change of Visa' process (i.e. applying for a Non Imm O Visa from a VE or Tourist Visa entry), hence drJack's question where you intend to reside in Thailand, as it is at the Imm Office of that province that you need to make the application.  

= = =

So in order to avoid such trouble, you could apply for the 90-day Non Imm O eVisa in your home-country.  When you enter Thailand on such Visa you will then get a 90-day Permission to stay stamp from day of entry. 

And you could then during the last month of those 90-days apply for the 1-year extension of stay based on your Non Imm O Visa at the Imm Office of the province where you are residing.  Note that you still need to open a personal Thai bank-account, as for such 1-year extension application, you need to provide evidence that the required funds are already at least 2 months seasoned on a personal Thai bank-account at moment of application for the 1-year extension. 

But with a Non Imm O Visa, it will be easier to open a personal Thai bank-account than having entered VisaExempt or on a Tourist Visa (although some banks will still turn you away or have requirements that are impossible to be met). 

= = =

For transferring the required funds from your Greek bank-account to the personal Thai bank-account you opened, it is recommended that you already open a (free) WISE-account while still in Greece.  As that will allow you to easily transfer the funds from your Greek bank-account to your Thai bank-account.  In almost all cases WISE is not only the cheapest way to do so, but also the quickest and most transparent (you will know exactly how much THB you will receive on your Thai bank-account when clicking GO). 

And note that you could already transfer the funds to a 'borderless account' while still in Greece, which would allow you once you are in Thailand to do the transfer in seconds from that Wise account to your Thai bank-account.

Edited October 10, 2023 by Red Phoenix